Does it make a difference in how long the nic stays good, if i mix my base in the desired vg/pg/nic ratio, and then store in the freezer. I have enough glass bottles and freezer space to do this, and would make my future mixing a lot easier. Does anyone do this ? Thanks.
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Theoretically you are exposing your nicotine to a bit more oxygen during dilution but probably not enough to be concerned about.
Two issues. First, your freezer will need to be really big. If you vape a 10 mg nic, then a liter of 100 mg of nic will require the space of your diluted nic to 10 liters. Not super efficient. But if you have the freezer space, not a stumbling block (do you have like a walk in freezer at home?)
The second is if you want to pull some out, you'll need to let it sit at least overnight so the VG in there will be less viscous so you can mix your flavorings and get an even mix. Really cold VG is really, really viscous. Assuming you don't want to throw it in a bucket of hot water for an hour or two before use. Not necessarily an issue if it's all been stored in "grab and mix" size small bottles. I'd hate to warm up a 1 liter bottle, draw off 100 ml, and refreeze the remainder for next time. A lot of "freeze thaw" cycles to go through.
However, if neither of those issues are a problem, it would make no long term difference. As @AzPlumber already pointed out theoretical loss to oxidation would be minimal if at all.
The second is if you want to pull some out, you'll need to let it sit at least overnight so the VG in there will be less viscous so you can mix your flavorings and get an even mix. Really cold VG is really, really viscous. Assuming you don't want to throw it in a bucket of hot water for an hour or two before use. Not necessarily an issue if it's all been stored in "grab and mix" size small bottles. I'd hate to warm up a 1 liter bottle, draw off 100 ml, and refreeze the remainder for next time. A lot of "freeze thaw" cycles to go through.
However, if neither of those issues are a problem, it would make no long term difference. As @AzPlumber already pointed out theoretical loss to oxidation would be minimal if at all.
I agree, the issue would be the logistics, not the actual combination of ingredients. It's an interesting idea I could see doing it with some of my nic, except that really, ATM, I am experimenting with my nic levels some, so as long as you don't anticipate changing nic levels, I could see this making mixing easier, (I doubt I can really do it myself without a dedicated freezer, though).
Anna
Anna
Besides the space issue your ratios will vary slightly, unless you mix the same recipe over and over. If its a question of making it easier then get a scale. No cleanup and you can mix a 100ml bottle in less than 5 min.
You might want to read @Kurt's Sticky near the top of the DIY E-Liquid page: Long Term Nic Storage
One of the things that stuck out to me, when I was trying to decide what nic concentration I wanted to purchase for storage; was that the higher the concentration, the less impact free oxygen can/will have.
@Kurt says this in his sticky:
"3 mL of headspace air at 25% O2 will give enough O2 to at most react with about 5 mg of nicotine. And that is only if it all reacts. VG naturally contains about 2 mg of O2 per liter, which if it all reacts will oxidize about 0.38 mg of nic...per liter of VG."
So, as I read it, there is a limited amount of oxygen that is available to react with whatever amount of nicotine is in the container. The more nicotine; the less the overall impact.
So, if I have 1 liter of 100mg/mL nic concentrate (with 3mL of headspace<airspace in the bottle>), in 100% VG base, the numbers will look like this:
100mg nic * 1,000mL = 100,000mg total nicotine
minus 5mg nic (from available oxygen in headspace) = 99,995 mg total nicotine
minus 0.38mg nic (from available oxygen in 100%VG) = 99,994.62mg total nicotine
99,994.62 ÷ 10,000 = .9999462 (or 99.99462%) of the original nicotine still available.
That amounts to only a 0.00538% loss.
However, if I take the same 1 liter of 100mg/mL VG nic, and dilute it to 10 liters of 10mg/mL nic in a 30PG/70 VG base, packed in 100 bottles of 100mL each; the numbers would look like this:
100mg nic * 1,000mL = 100,000mg total nicotine
minus 500mg nic (5mg * 100 bottles headspace=500mg) = 99,500 mg total nicotine
minus 0.38mg nic (70% of 10L=7L*0.38=2.66mg 100%VG) = 99,497.34mg total nicotine
99,497.34 ÷ 10,000 = .9949734 (or 99.49734%) of the original nicotine still available.
That amounts to a 0.50266% loss.
While that is still less than 1% loss, it is 93 times greater loss than leaving it concentrated. It also does not factor in any additional exposure from the PG (Kurt didn't mention that; so I didn't try to account for it), or what the effects might be of the additional air exposure from having to pour out the nic into 100 other bottles.
Further, all of this is completely relative, to the number of bottles (and thereby the additional headspace), and what the dilution ratio is. The higher the numbers of bottles, and the greater the dilution, the more impact oxidation can have.
For me, I have chosen to leave my nic concentrate alone as much as possible, until I am ready to use it. After two years of vaping nothing but my own DIY; I find that I am still changing in the way I vape, my preferred ratios, the amount of nicotine I prefer, and the way I taste flavors. Trying to guess what I am going to find most useful next year, in three years, or in five years time, is a total crap-shoot. I will wait until I need it.
That's where I'm at... for the moment anyway!
One of the things that stuck out to me, when I was trying to decide what nic concentration I wanted to purchase for storage; was that the higher the concentration, the less impact free oxygen can/will have.
@Kurt says this in his sticky:
"3 mL of headspace air at 25% O2 will give enough O2 to at most react with about 5 mg of nicotine. And that is only if it all reacts. VG naturally contains about 2 mg of O2 per liter, which if it all reacts will oxidize about 0.38 mg of nic...per liter of VG."
So, as I read it, there is a limited amount of oxygen that is available to react with whatever amount of nicotine is in the container. The more nicotine; the less the overall impact.
So, if I have 1 liter of 100mg/mL nic concentrate (with 3mL of headspace<airspace in the bottle>), in 100% VG base, the numbers will look like this:
100mg nic * 1,000mL = 100,000mg total nicotine
minus 5mg nic (from available oxygen in headspace) = 99,995 mg total nicotine
minus 0.38mg nic (from available oxygen in 100%VG) = 99,994.62mg total nicotine
99,994.62 ÷ 10,000 = .9999462 (or 99.99462%) of the original nicotine still available.
That amounts to only a 0.00538% loss.
However, if I take the same 1 liter of 100mg/mL VG nic, and dilute it to 10 liters of 10mg/mL nic in a 30PG/70 VG base, packed in 100 bottles of 100mL each; the numbers would look like this:
100mg nic * 1,000mL = 100,000mg total nicotine
minus 500mg nic (5mg * 100 bottles headspace=500mg) = 99,500 mg total nicotine
minus 0.38mg nic (70% of 10L=7L*0.38=2.66mg 100%VG) = 99,497.34mg total nicotine
99,497.34 ÷ 10,000 = .9949734 (or 99.49734%) of the original nicotine still available.
That amounts to a 0.50266% loss.
While that is still less than 1% loss, it is 93 times greater loss than leaving it concentrated. It also does not factor in any additional exposure from the PG (Kurt didn't mention that; so I didn't try to account for it), or what the effects might be of the additional air exposure from having to pour out the nic into 100 other bottles.
Further, all of this is completely relative, to the number of bottles (and thereby the additional headspace), and what the dilution ratio is. The higher the numbers of bottles, and the greater the dilution, the more impact oxidation can have.
For me, I have chosen to leave my nic concentrate alone as much as possible, until I am ready to use it. After two years of vaping nothing but my own DIY; I find that I am still changing in the way I vape, my preferred ratios, the amount of nicotine I prefer, and the way I taste flavors. Trying to guess what I am going to find most useful next year, in three years, or in five years time, is a total crap-shoot. I will wait until I need it.
That's where I'm at... for the moment anyway!
Yeah, the ratios will vary slightly, but not enough to make a difference to me. The vast majority of the time i use 5 to 10 % flavoring in my mixes, so my nic will be in the 6 to 6.5 % range, if my base is 7%. Close enough. I already mix by weight btw.
I bought 100mg nic in 50/50 base. Put 500 ml by weight into a large bottle and cut the rest into 10-50ml bottles. With the ejuice calc I bring a 50ml bottle into the house, add vg and pg to cut it into 100mls of 48nic that I use in my mixes. I think buying less than 100mg nic is almost a waste cause you paying the vendor to cut and use their base that can easily be done at home.
I don't anticipate changing my nic level in the next year, and i no longer keep more than a years worth of anything. I learned that the hard way after throwing away so much liquid and gear that i had accumulated over the years. Hundreds of dollars wasted ! I'm not much of a hobbyist anymore
I only have 240 ml of nic, which is almost 3 years worth for me. I don't have a walk-in , but i have a large freezer which is less than half full. More than enough room for for 30 x 120ml bottles ( one for each month ) of 7 mg/ml mixed at 75/25 vg/pg, so i wouldn't need to warm and re-freeze. I would just take at on e out one bottle each month.
You might want to read @Kurt's Sticky near the top of the DIY E-Liquid page: Long Term Nic Storage
One of the things that stuck out to me, when I was trying to decide what nic concentration I wanted to purchase for storage; was that the higher the concentration, the less impact free oxygen can/will have.
@Kurt says this in his sticky:
"3 mL of headspace air at 25% O2 will give enough O2 to at most react with about 5 mg of nicotine. And that is only if it all reacts. VG naturally contains about 2 mg of O2 per liter, which if it all reacts will oxidize about 0.38 mg of nic...per liter of VG."
So, as I read it, there is a limited amount of oxygen that is available to react with whatever amount of nicotine is in the container. The more nicotine; the less the overall impact.
So, if I have 1 liter of 100mg/mL nic concentrate (with 3mL of headspace<airspace in the bottle>), in 100% VG base, the numbers will look like this:
100mg nic * 1,000mL = 100,000mg total nicotine
minus 5mg nic (from available oxygen in headspace) = 99,995 mg total nicotine
minus 0.38mg nic (from available oxygen in 100%VG) = 99,994.62mg total nicotine
99,994.62 ÷ 10,000 = .9999462 (or 99.99462%) of the original nicotine still available.
That amounts to only a 0.00538% loss.
However, if I take the same 1 liter of 100mg/mL VG nic, and dilute it to 10 liters of 10mg/mL nic in a 30PG/70 VG base, packed in 100 bottles of 100mL each; the numbers would look like this:
100mg nic * 1,000mL = 100,000mg total nicotine
minus 500mg nic (5mg * 100 bottles headspace=500mg) = 99,500 mg total nicotine
minus 0.38mg nic (70% of 10L=7L*0.38=2.66mg 100%VG) = 99,497.34mg total nicotine
99,497.34 ÷ 10,000 = .9949734 (or 99.49734%) of the original nicotine still available.
That amounts to a 0.50266% loss.
While that is still less than 1% loss, it is 93 times greater loss than leaving it concentrated. It also does not factor in any additional exposure from the PG (Kurt didn't mention that; so I didn't try to account for it), or what the effects might be of the additional air exposure from having to pour out the nic into 100 other bottles.
Further, all of this is completely relative, to the number of bottles (and thereby the additional headspace), and what the dilution ratio is. The higher the numbers of bottles, and the greater the dilution, the more impact oxidation can have.
For me, I have chosen to leave my nic concentrate alone as much as possible, until I am ready to use it. After two years of vaping nothing but my own DIY; I find that I am still changing in the way I vape, my preferred ratios, the amount of nicotine I prefer, and the way I taste flavors. Trying to guess what I am going to find most useful next year, in three years, or in five years time, is a total crap-shoot. I will wait until I need it.
That's where I'm at... for the moment anyway!
Wow, what a detailed response, thanks for taking the time. I actually followed the math too
I don't think the small percentage of nicotine loss will be an issue for me, even at 7%. I will just make sure to fill the bottles to the brim. I mix once a month for the most part, and usually 10 ml of each mix. Usually 12-13 different mixes ( unless i get obsessed with one particular mix, which is rare ). I already pre mix my base to the desired 75/25 vg/pg 7% ratio, and then add about 11.5 grams to my flavors for each 10 ml bottle. All that i would be doing differently, is that i would store my 120 ml bottles in the freezer for the long-term, instead of mixing one bottle each month. I think this would work for my way of mixing and vaping.
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My pleasure!
I tend to agree that any difference might be negligible, and most likely, unnoticeable. Especially, when you add in the fact, that this is a year's (or less) supply for you.I actually followed the math too
I would offer one item for consideration though; regarding "filling to the brim." I am not sure what freezer temperatures do to the volume (expansion/contraction) and pressures inside the container. But I do know from personal experience, as well as reading other's reports, that opening a bottle at a temperature warmer than when initially filled, can (and does
) lead to the contents overflowing upon decanting (even just a few degrees will do it
). If you are going to "fill to the brim," I might suggest placing the bottle on a small tray, or plate, before opening, to catch any possible overflow. Just a thought... Yep, it sounds like a solution that could work for you.
With all that clarification it sounds like it might just work. I would use conical caps on the bottles. They take up the space at the top of the bottle. Actually a good way to not have to keep up with PG/VG and Nic.
Yeah, i just wanted to simplify things a little more, and had thought about the implications. I am not a proponent of this method of storage for anyone else, just wanted to know if it's as effective a method of nicotine preservation, as storing 100 mg/ml nic, for me.
Thankfully all my caps are conical anyway
Also..
One recipe might use 2-3% flavoring (tobacco), while another could be 10-15% (castle long); you're nic level may fluctuate more than what's acceptable.
One recipe might use 2-3% flavoring (tobacco), while another could be 10-15% (castle long); you're nic level may fluctuate more than what's acceptable.
Thanks, but that was addressed above. Not an issue for me. my mixes are almost always between 5 and 10 % flavoring. At 5 % flavoring, my final mix will be approx. 6.65% nic, and at 10 % flavoring, approx. 6.3% nic. That's close enough for me.
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