No battery, no wires, perpetual mod.

[AttyPops]

Probably should have posted the thread in this sub-forum instead. See explanation below.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/modders-forum/123783-engineers-question.html

So, whaddya think? Possible to move the battery out completely and make a "perpetual" mod? Never changing the battery is appealing. Constantly putting the PV in a charge-tray may not be. Induction charge time may be a problem. IDK since I don't have the EE background to do the calculations. Is the idea even in the realm of practicality?

basically it's:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| switch ---- resistor ---- capacitor -------- diode/rectifier ------ induction coil(s)
| |=================================================LED/pcb
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- cap
connector on left


================================================================
charge "tray" with induction coils
================================================================

Not quite that simple, and no safety stuff shown, but you get the idea.

So, what size cap is required for 1 or 2 hits? Anyone know about induction coils and charge time for that size cap?

 

[StarsAndBars]

Hey that's a great idea. They could through one in with every purchase of a time machine. Dude are you serious with this post or just having fun?

 

[st0nedpenguin]

Hey that's a great idea. They could through one in with every purchase of a time machine. Dude are you serious with this post or just having fun?

You do realize that you can already buy wireless charging systems for devices like iPods that work in a similar fashion, right?

 

[AttyPops]

Yes, of course I was serious.

Wireless energy transfer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Resonant energy transfer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

but I'm not an EE.

Correct St0nedpenguin +1. Although, this would probably be a different device/frequency. Hmmm... could make it compatible with that standard if it is an open standard so people could use existing pads that they have.

Wireless transmission of energy has been around in one form or another for a couple hundred years. See wiki's. Tesla was playing with it quite a bit. We, in our time, of course, understand it better now.

I suspect that a smart "tray" would help, so we don't have to have an "always on" condition of the transmitter (wastes a lot of energy).

 

[asdaq]

I suspect the smallest capacitor is going to be larger than the smallest battery in this scenario as the two are interrelated. Sort of sounds like a 2-hit PCC induction setup.

 

[StarsAndBars]

I guess I was thrown by the word perpetual in the original post. Having to charge it keeps it from being perpetual. I guess I misunderstood what you were going for here. Really cool concept, just not sure if it would be of any practical advantage.

 

[AttyPops]

asdaq : do PCC's use induction to charge? I thought they were screw connectors. Not really a PCC, although it could be. I was thinking of a desktop tray, or similar transmitter. May work in the car too.

You may be correct about the cap, that's why I asked the question.

S&B: "perpetual" refers to the fact that you never change the "battery" part of the e-cig, you always use the same one. Of course, it doesn't store infinite energy... lol. That would go well with time machines.

 

[st0nedpenguin]

It'd also make for some amazing review quotes too.

"I usually get about an eternity out of the battery, but if you're a heavier vaper you might get a little less than an eternity, and obviously if you're a light vaper it'll last you to infinity and beyond."

 

[asdaq]

I left the induction part in the mix

I'm afraid conductors are just too boring at a chemistry level to compete with batts.

Also, Scottbee did a desktop version of a conductive charger, not sure if he got it into his shirt pocket-- see his Dream PV's thread (search isn't working for me atm)

 

[bigblue30]

Attypops,

I think the size of the cap might be a problem..... Lets say you want to run a 3 ohm atty for 3 seconds.

To pick the capacitor that would work for this you would need to use:

the time constant of the circuit: .....the amount of time it takes for voltage or current values to change approximately 63 percent from their starting values to their final values. In a series RC circuit, the time constant is equal to the total resistance in ohms multiplied by the total capacitance in farads or,
T=R X C.

We can rearrange this to find the size of the cap we will need:

C = T/R
... In this case that equals 1 farad. A one farad cap would be much bigger than a battery that would do the same job.

Also in 3 seconds the cap will drop 63% of its starting voltage. Your hit will drop to more then 1/2 of what it was at the start of the 3 seconds, so you would need to use even a bigger cap to make a nice "smooth" hit.

 

[AttyPops]

Wow... larger than 1 farad? I understand that a farad is a large unit of measure. So.... caps don't have nearly the energy density of a battery. Thus, the volume of the cap is large/huge. Also would be dangerous. A continuous supply field would help, but still.....

How the heck do they intend to do the lighting then? Wow... moving out of the practical range. Even with PWM I'd still need a large cap since I have to dump a given amount of energy into an atty.

So a 10 watt light bulb would take a huge cap to run for 3 seconds (assuming about 3 ohms resistance)? CRAP!

Thanks again blue for the info. I guess your other post:

How about this… Think of using a clock pendulum… when it swings left it charges a cap to the output voltage you desire ie 4.5 volts. When it swings right it dumps that voltage to the atty (or load). And it does it at 300 kHz (300,000 times a second). The “dump” time is very short so a small farad cap would work.

Since the frequency of charge is so large you could also use an inductor coil….voltage across the coil would induce a “field” around the coil and when you removed the voltage the “field” would induce a current back into the coil.

The above idea is the basics for how the chip (PTR08060W) in my Evercool mod works.

This is also why it is much more efficient that a regulator chip and runs so much cooler. It does not burn off the excess voltage.

... is the path to explore. I have doubts that it could dump enough energy fast enough to fire the atty without a very "large" field. And the user would have to be in the field all the time.

CRAP!

 

[kj4lxw]

Could this type of technology/energy source be used for a pv without it being too bulky?

Flashlight that recharges in 90 seconds

According to the instructions first initial charge for this flashlight is 24 hours, then only 90 seconds for each subsequent charge. Imagine this type feature available in a pv and able to accomplish it using USB from a pc. Even if charging time was up to 5-15 minutes I think it would be a significant improvement.

 

[AttyPops]

So if C = R / T... R is the resistance in ohms, and T is the time. nm... Blue, I think it is C = T/R. 3/3 works either way tho (lol), so you're still correct. Just correcting it for other readers after I spotted it. For a second there I thought I was going to be able to lower the capacitor value by lowering the resistance....lol. Would have been sweet....

kj4lxw: (thanks for making me type that btw ) thanks for the link. Using capacitors allows for a "quick charge" PV, however, I'm hesitant to use large capacitors in a PV for safety reasons. Although it would be sealed... Your point is well taken, since it works in a flashlight. Hmmm.

 

[bigblue30]

Thanks for catching that .....Yep....using 3 and 3 works out the same....I will fix the other post.

FYI 1 farad 12 volt cap.. 14 x 6 x 4 inches ; 4 pounds

 

[AttyPops]

Thanks for catching that .....Yep....using 3 and 3 works out the same....I will fix the other post.

FYI 1 farad 12 volt cap.. 14 x 6 x 4 inches ; 4 pounds

ROFLMAO - yeah. So much for this cap idea.... might as well use a battery. Although a sealed very high voltage/low amp cap... dangerous. bah.

Also, for anyone reading this thread, HowStuffWorks "Farad"

Any quick charge batteries rather than caps? The idea is to be able to store a 1 or 2 hit charge quickly, and discharge quickly. Caps are the only way I know of. Trying to trade time/capacity for size/convenience. I wonder if any new materials hold a charge and would be cost effective. Nano something or other.....

Thanks everyone for posting.

 

[DaveP]

ROFLMAO - yeah. So much for this cap idea.... might as well use a battery. Although a sealed very high voltage/low amp cap... dangerous. bah.

Also, for anyone reading this thread, HowStuffWorks "Farad"

Any quick charge batteries rather than caps? The idea is to be able to store a 1 or 2 hit charge quickly, and discharge quickly. Caps are the only way I know of. Trying to trade time/capacity for size/convenience. I wonder if any new materials hold a charge and would be cost effective. Nano something or other.....

Thanks everyone for posting.

The problem with a large cap is that quick discharge just might make smoke come out of your ears and you could wake up drooling and staring at the ceiling (provided you woke up)! Capacitance is not something to play with, especially in large values ...

 

[opuscroakus]

Just throwing this out there, has anyone thought about an UltraCap or SuperCap?

 

[bigblue30]

SC are high cap value but low voltage ie..Electric Double Layer Capacitor (EDLC): Boostcap® Ultracapacitor 3000.0 F ±20%; 2.7V; L = 138.0mm, OD = 60.0mm; -40°C to +65°C Features: 2.7V operating voltage...

 

[Adik Ted]

What about a wind up PV?

 

[AttyPops]

The problem with a large cap is that quick discharge just might make smoke come out of your ears and you could wake up drooling and staring at the ceiling (provided you woke up)! Capacitance is not something to play with, especially in large values ...

Dude.... that's what the resistor was for...... LOL.

A R/C circuit is like a battery... except that a battery seems to have orders of magnitude more energy storage. I mess with em all the time in electronics circuits to smooth out and decouple devices. And like I said, large cap could be dangerous. Although, see the link above with the flashlight ... uses 3 caps.