Nobody is gonna probably like this...

[Pure Guava]

As a new comer to e-cigarettes, I've researched the crap out of it. Read fabrications, augmented truths, even blatant lying and misinformation.

And find myself pretty ......, like many others.

There are many things sold that are not FDA approved. However when companies label them "ways that help you stop smoking tobacco", well holy ...... there has to be data, data, data, proof, proof, proof, safety, safety, safety.

Now, I can by and use all the FDA approved ingredients in e-juice. So that shouldn't be a problem.

If the ownership of an "electronic device that supplies me with a legal alkaloid" gets banned, the owners of Mr. Coffee better start worrying.


That being said, I think there are two issues with/and two separate outcomes/paths.

I'm going to skip the e-cigarette part, as bongs and glass pipes are being sold for "tobacco" and that seems hunky dorey.

(Please excuse any inaccuracies and/or poor analogies.)

1) e-liquid: If you buy something unregulated, buyer beware. If I make my own, again out of FDA approved things, piss off.

If I make my own margarita, but replace the tequila with gasoline and the salt with lye crystals, one less person to damage the gene pool. Huzzah.

2) Locations: It has been proven that PG and VG can be irritants when inhaled. Some people on here have those issues.

So, until bars/restaurants can spray a delightful nutty smelling mist (made from a small amount of processed peanuts) without posting huge freaking signs a the entrance letting people know about their "special" mist, I can see the indoor ban moving along.

Yes, I know. We don't know what amount could be "acceptable" to purposefully project in the air. Which leads me to...


The only thing I can think of to keep things in our favor is:

- Find an across-the-board non-irritant (who knows besides h2o) in place of the PG/VG/PEG400 etc.
- Do a lot of research on what % of nicotine goes into the air, dissipation, etc.


In the meantime, make some signs that say, "WARNING: Don't be a wiener but, on a minuscule level, there are PG and/or VG particulates floating around in the air. Please do continue to enjoy our liver destroying alcohol."

 

[t9c]

1) E-liquid: If you buy something unregulated, buyer beware. If I make my own, again out of FDA approved things, piss off.

2) Locations: It has been proven that PG and VG can be irritants when inhaled. Some people on here have those issues.

I don't think anyone here on ECF would argue...maybe someone will?
As for regulation...We the consumers on this forum are WAY more foreboding to juice suppliers than any regulatory agency could ever aspire to be. Just one bad review, like someone getting sick from vaping a suppliers' juice would be the nail in the coffin for them. Fines are one thing, they are deductible. Lost revenue, otoh is a game changer.

As for PG/VG/PEG alternatives, I say why not? Fine with me. But, my liberty is infringed if someone tells me I cannot use what does NOT irritate ME, and neither PG or VG does, so it shouldn't concern anyone else if I want to vape it.

btw, when is "vaping" & "vape" gonna get put into the dam dictionary here?

 

[Kevin Freeheart]

ECF is a counter to the FDA and government regulation. If I buy or make a crappy product, the people around me review it and give thumbs up or thumbs down. And if I feel like being a contrarian, I still can.

Community works far better at weeding out bad business practices and bad products than... ahem... other "solutions".

As an aside, I don't personally like pimping the "quit smoking" aspects of personal vaporizers. Some people I know have used them and quit, but I know just as many who replace some of their smoking with vaping or who add vaping to their habits right alongside. I don't think that's a bad thing at all. I also think that vaping does so much MORE than other "smoking cessation".

How many people get excited about and form communities around the latest flavor of nicotine gum? Probably far fewer than the ejuice fanatics around here. I think that says something positive about it.

 

[5cardstud]

The not so funny part is that they have already spent enough money, trying to ban these and put out mis-information, that they could have paid for many studies to find the truth. But then truth and lives isn't what they're after. They're after the tax money and money you haven't spent on their legal tobacco products and useless stop smoking products.

 

[Pure Guava]

As for regulation...

I guess that is the million dollar question. Is it regulated? Can it be?

Since there are many non-regulated things one can take (ingest, smoke, etc), when does it become (under what circumstances) something that can be regulated?

 

[DC2]

- Do a lot of research on what % of nicotine goes into the air, dissipation, etc.

Then you should be very interested in this...
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/casaa/110033-support-ivaqs-research-study.html

 

[LowThudd]

As far as a "Vapor filled bar", it's called a fog machine and runs on PG. The FDA DID try to ban them, but they could not substantiate any reason to.

To the FDA: "You have been weighed...You have been measured...And you have been left wanting." -A Knights Tale

 

[DC2]

Since there are many non-regulated things one can take (ingest, smoke, etc), when does it become (under what circumstances) something that can be regulated?

It became something to be regulated the minute that the FDA decided it was a drug delivery device.
And there is a court case going on right now that will hopefully tell them they are full of crap.

But if they lose the court case, it looks like these will become tobacco products.
And then they will be regulated under the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Act which was passed last year.

 

[Pure Guava]

It became something to be regulated the minute that the FDA decided it was a drug delivery device.

There seems to be a discrepancy and tons of questions...

"What are drug delivery devices? Drug delivery devices are specialized tools for the delivery of a drug or therapeutic agent via a specific route of administration."

"In the United States, the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act definition of "drug" includes "articles intended for use in the diagnosis, cure, mitigation, treatment, or prevention of disease in man or other animals" and "articles (other than food) intended to affect the structure or any function of the body of man or other animals." Consistent with that definition, the U.S. separately defines narcotic drugs and controlled substances, which may include non-drugs, and explicitly excludes tobacco, caffeine and alcoholic beverages."

So, it appears that are correctly deeming it a drug delivery device.

But what does the FDA do?

"The FDA is responsible for protecting the public health by assuring the safety, efficacy, and security of human and veterinary drugs, biological products, medical devices, our nation’s food supply, cosmetics, and products that emit radiation. FDA also ensures that these products are honestly, accurately and informatively represented to the public."

Well, the electronic cigarette is neither a human and veterinary drug, biological product, medical device, our nation’s food supply, cosmetics, or a product that emit radiation.

So, by their own definition hey can not regulate it.

Unless they want to call my coffee maker a "medical device".

What's the hold up?

 

[LowThudd]

The bottom line is, they are a predominantly unregulated administration.They can say or do anything they want, even if it makes no sense. The only thing that can really be done is to take them to court in the aftermath.

 

[xg4bx]

It became something to be regulated the minute that the FDA decided it was a drug delivery device.
And there is a court case going on right now that will hopefully tell them they are full of crap.

But if they lose the court case, it looks like these will become tobacco products.
And then they will be regulated under the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Act which was passed last year.

It's seriously called the "family smoking prevention" act? Ewww, enough of the family&children horse crap. They name it that garbage on purpose, who would be against family smoking prevention?

 

[Magus86]

"FDA also ensures that these products are honestly, accurately and informatively represented to the public."

Okay, well that right there is the exact opposite of what they're doing. They're fear mongering and making these things look like the grim reaper's scythe, so can't something be done about that? They're lying out their asses about e-cigs and making them inaccurately appear to be unsafe. Not only that, but nobody seems to give a .... that regardless of whether or not they're 100% safe(by the way, wtf is the definition of 100% safe? Too much of anything can kill you, even water. Should water be banned??), they're still safER than the alternative of smoking cigarettes. But NOBODY is suggesting we go ahead and ban cigarettes or take them off the market until they're proven safe. The bottom line is that the FDA is NOT doing its intended job. It needs to be heavily reformed or entirely eradicated.

 

[vaporhottie]

The FDA is just looking out for Big tobacco and Big Pharmara.....Haven't you heard, this is a $100 million dollar industry and rising. This is all they care about. It's cutting into their profits. I predict that there will be no regulating them as a drug delivery device because under their own definition it is not. I think e-cigs will be regulated as a tobacco product, which means no flavors anymore except tobacco and menthol flavors, unless you DIY. And you will not be able to buy online anymore.

 

[Pure Guava]

The FDA is just looking out for Big tobacco and Big Pharmara.....Haven't you heard, this is a $100 million dollar industry and rising. This is all they care about. It's cutting into their profits. I predict that there will be no regulating them as a drug delivery device because under their own definition it is not. I think e-cigs will be regulated as a tobacco product, which means no flavors anymore except tobacco and menthol flavors, unless you DIY. And you will not be able to buy online anymore.

Can't buy online DIY or all?

 

[LowThudd]

Can't buy online DIY or all?

PACT act.

 

[yvilla]

LowThudd and Vaporhottie - that is misinformation you are spreading! The PACT Act applies ONLY to the products specifically defined and described therein. And that is: conventional cigarettes, and "smokeless tobacco products" (a term expressly defined wthin the statute, and designed to cover things like snus and dissovlables, and NOT covering e-cigs).

So even if the FDA tomorrow conceded the "drug device" argument and began to classify and regulate e-cigs as "tobacco products" under the FSPTCA, they WOULD NOT automatically be covered by the PACT Act. I don't know how many times I and others have posted this! If the powers that be wanted to prohibit internet and mail order sales of e-cigs as tobacco products, they would have to either AMEND the PACT Act to specifically include them, or write another new law to do so!

 

[Pure Guava]

PACT act.

Read The Bill: S. 1147 - GovTrack.us

That appears to be the avoidance of taxes. They want their money.

Plus, it says tobacco and their definition of tobacco is not applicable to electronic cigarettes.

 

[LowThudd]

LowThudd and Vaporhottie - that is misinformation you are spreading! The PACT Act applies ONLY to the products specifically defined and described therein. And that is: conventional cigarettes, and "smokeless tobacco products" (a term expressly defined wthin the statute, and designed to cover things like snus and dissovlables, and NOT covering e-cigs).

So even if the FDA tomorrow conceded the "drug device" argument and began to classify and regulate e-cigs as "tobacco products" under the FSPTCA, they WOULD NOT automatically be covered by the PACT Act. I don't know how many times I and others have posted this! If the powers that be wanted to prohibit internet and mail order sales of e-cigs as tobacco products, they would have to either AMEND the PACT Act to specifically include them, or write another new law to do so!

If you reread you'll see that this was a "Hypothetical" statement based on one of the possible outcomes of the FDAs regulation being that ecigs are regulated as tobacco products rather than "Drug Delivery Devices".

 

[Pure Guava]

If you reread you'll see that this was a "Hypothetical" statement based on one of the possible outcomes of the FDAs regulation being that ecigs are regulated as tobacco products rather than "Drug Delivery Devices".

Given that, it still could be sold on the net.

 

[LowThudd]

Given that, it still could be sold on the net.

Not necessarilly. The USPS already has regulation against shipping through the USPS. Then there are these added problems:

(b) Shipping and Packaging-

‘(1) REQUIRED STATEMENT- For any shipping package containing cigarettes or smokeless tobacco, the delivery seller shall include on the bill of lading, if any, and on the outside of the shipping package, on the same surface as the delivery address, a clear and conspicuous statement providing as follows: ‘CIGARETTES/SMOKELESS TOBACCO: FEDERAL LAW REQUIRES THE PAYMENT OF ALL APPLICABLE EXCISE TAXES, AND COMPLIANCE WITH APPLICABLE LICENSING AND TAX-STAMPING OBLIGATIONS’.

‘(2) FAILURE TO LABEL- Any shipping package described in paragraph (1) that is not labeled in accordance with that paragraph shall be treated as nondeliverable matter by a common carrier or other delivery service, if the common carrier or other delivery service knows or should know the package contains cigarettes or smokeless tobacco. If a common carrier or other delivery service believes a package is being submitted for delivery in violation of paragraph (1), it may require the person submitting the package for delivery to establish that it is not being sent in violation of paragraph (1) before accepting the package for delivery. Nothing in this paragraph shall require the common carrier or other delivery service to open any package to determine its contents.

‘(3) WEIGHT RESTRICTION- A delivery seller shall not sell, offer for sale, deliver, or cause to be delivered in any single sale or single delivery any cigarettes or smokeless tobacco weighing more than 10 pounds.

‘(4) AGE VERIFICATION-

‘(A) IN GENERAL- A delivery seller who mails or