Higher Standards

[zoiDman]

I still do feel bad because my responses all seem a bit edgy lately, so please take the way I've said things with a grain of salt - the general message is still what I mean to say - I just haven't been saying it in the nicest ways...

I've also been having issues with people bothering me about using e-cigs, and them being, "harmful," and people who work in the industry telling me they're, "good for you," when the truth is more likely that they aren't harmful, but they probably aren't good for you, either...

I've been saying that, you might be able to say they're on par with inhaling the air in a large city, but we don't know until the industry is properly standardized, so we can have studies that look at normal situations.

I understand your Frustration. And I believe that you Want e-liquids to be as "Safe" as Possible.

My Suggestion to you is to Control the things you Can Control.

If you give some Naysayer some of the Non Junk Science Studies about e-Cigarettes and e-liquids and they still think that e-Cigarette use is an Evil, So Be It. Walk away from these People.

And if you are Concerned that e-Liquids May Not be made from USP Grade VG and PG, then I think the Best thing for you to do is to Make your Own e-Liquids from Ingredients of your Choice.

 

[Geoffrey White]

The truth is always somewhere in the middle. (that's why extremists in any arena of any subject often do not have much credibility in general).

Perhaps you're not aware that studies are being done, both by ECTA in CAN and by researchers here, to ultimately improve the safety of elqiuids. Sometimes, the news from some studies is good, and sometimes it isn't so good --- but the only way to forge ahead with that goal is to take the good with the bad, and combine it with your own common sense and % of risk you are willing to assume for the time being. It's a new technology and there is still a lot to learn. Progress is being made, I'm sure you've read this:
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/media-general-news/517858-donate-dr-farsalinos-new-study.html

My feeeling is that vaping is harm reduction, so it will always be less harmful than smoking / combustion cigarettes. But I do accept a certain amount of risk for now....and that is simply that nothing is better than than NOT putting anything extra into your lungs

That's essentially my personal point of view as well. I try to tell people I've switched from cigarettes to electronic cigarettes because they are less harmful.

Note that I didn't say that I quit, because to me that implies that I'm no longer addicted, which I still am - just to something different.

For now.

I think if I ever get down to no nicotine, I'll prolly still vape, but I'll also feel more comfortable saying that I've quit.

No, I hadn't read that - I've actually only been here for a very short time. Thank you for the link, though!

 

[Geoffrey White]

I understand your Frustration. And I believe that you Want e-Liquids to be as "Safe" as Possible.

My Suggestion to you is to Control the things you Can Control.

If you give some Naysayer some of the Non Junk Science Studies about e-Cigarettes and e-Liquids and they still think that e-Cigarette use is an Evil, So Be It. Walk away from these People.

And if you are Concerned that e-Liquids May Not be made from USP Grade VG and PG, then I think the Best thing for you to do is to Make your Own e-Liquids from Ingredients of your Choice.

I suppose you're right, but I'd still like to see vendors doing more.

In the end, I found out that there is even a Menthol USP, so I suppose I just need to find a reputable supplier to begin making my favourite flavour!

 

[SmokingMonkey]

After reading the first 18 posts, I can agree that suppliers should be held to this higher level. One hole I have found in your thinking is one that I think can be found in anyone's (even mine until this revelation). How can we be completely sure that inhalation is completely safe of this substance? By mere numbers, it seems easy (and obvious) that vaping is safer than traditional cigarettes. However, it also seems simple that inhaling some substances is more harmful than inhaling none. I do think that the FDA is against us by the money standard, but I also think it's going to be hard to know what the real hazards are until a privately funded company who actually cares looks into it. I agree they should be held to a higher standard and agree with most of what you're saying, but how do we really know how safe this is without extensive research to back it up?

 

[Geoffrey White]

After reading the first 18 posts, I can agree that suppliers should be held to this higher level. One hole I have found in your thinking is one that I think can be found in anyone's (even mine until this revelation). How can we be completely sure that inhalation is completely safe of this substance? By mere numbers, it seems easy (and obvious) that vaping is safer than traditional cigarettes. However, it also seems simple that inhaling some substances is more harmful than inhaling none. I do think that the FDA is against us by the money standard, but I also think it's going to be hard to know what the real hazards are until a privately funded company who actually cares looks into it. I agree they should be held to a higher standard and agree with most of what you're saying, but how do we really know how safe this is without extensive research to back it up?

My main point is that, until we actually achieve a standard (preferably a relatively high one), studies on the subject will continue to be flawed.

Is it safe? Depends on your definition of safe.

More importantly, there are ingredients available of a high enough quality that they've been used in medical and pharmaceutical inhalation products already, so... Why aren't we demanding those are used? USP grade glycerin, propylene glycol, nicotine, and menthol are all available, so if a company were to use those ingredients, and maintain the USP standards during manufacturing, we could have a (supposedly) safe e-liquid to vape.

Then, we could focus specifically on finding safe flavours, and go from there.

 

[SmokingMonkey]

My main point is that, until we actually achieve a standard (preferably a relatively high one), studies on the subject will continue to be flawed.

Is it safe? Depends on your definition of safe.

More importantly, there are ingredients available of a high enough quality that they've been used in medical and pharmaceutical inhalation products already, so... Why aren't we demanding those are used? USP grade glycerin, propylene glycol, nicotine, and menthol are all available, so if a company were to use those ingredients, and maintain the USP standards during manufacturing, we could have a (supposedly) safe e-liquid to vape.

Then, we could focus specifically on finding safe flavours, and go from there.

I completely understand what you are saying and do have to say I do agree with you. I am simply stating that we won't really know how safe this is with most things we inhale until this standard and research is performed. I do disagree with one part of your claim about the FDA and how it's partially our fault. It's about money, and either way, they will make the same choice as big tobacco has a lot more power than us. I really don't think it's partially our fault. I think it was unavoidable.

 

[Schwiggiddy]

I honestly only buy from suppliers who already use USP grade VG/PG. I have bought both of these at local big-box stores, and both carry the USP label, so I think it's fair to say that most companies, in the US anyway, probably use these. You can always check their website or ask them directly.

Also, I take issue with your claim that $3 e-liquid is of the same quality as more expensive e-liquids. I can always taste the difference, and it's not just a matter of the PG/VG ratio. There are definite differences in flavor profile between cheap e-liquid and the "good stuff." And this isn't even mentioning my favorite brand that doesn't use any artificial flavors. I'm not a big DIYer, I have small children and I don't really have all the tools or a proper facility for making juice, so I can't speak to the DIY flavor suppliers, but that's not really what you were talking about either.

Now nicotine is a tricky one, but I think that anybody using pharmaceutical-grade nicotine is going to have more or less the same quality. Synthetic nicotine would be quite expensive comparatively, and saving money is certainly one of the benefits of switching to vaping.

Here is what bothers me.: There are a few vapor stores in my area, and a few of them carry big, popular brands like EC, AIV, etc. There is a new local brand that has starting selling to the newer shops; I won't name this brand because I'm about to disparage it. This local brand is made in a shed in the guy's backyard. After I learned this, I have told every vaper I know about this because I believe that is completely unsanitary and that it is just a matter of time before they make a contaminated batch and somebody gets sick, or worse. However, I know for a fact that their liquid is being sold in at least 2 local shops, and that scares the crap out of me. These are the kind of people that are going to force the hand of government regulators.

 

[stevegmu]

Nobody knows. Safe to eat, yes. Safe to heat and inhale repeatedly? Not even the Almighty FDA knows...

 

[Geoffrey White]

I honestly only buy from suppliers who already use USP grade VG/PG. I have bought both of these at local big-box stores, and both carry the USP label, so I think it's fair to say that most companies, in the US anyway, probably use these. You can always check their website or ask them directly.

Also, I take issue with your claim that $3 e-liquid is of the same quality as more expensive e-liquids. I can always taste the difference, and it's not just a matter of the PG/VG ratio. There are definite differences in flavor profile between cheap e-liquid and the "good stuff." And this isn't even mentioning my favorite brand that doesn't use any artificial flavors. I'm not a big DIYer, I have small children and I don't really have all the tools or a proper facility for making juice, so I can't speak to the DIY flavor suppliers, but that's not really what you were talking about either.

Now nicotine is a tricky one, but I think that anybody using pharmaceutical-grade nicotine is going to have more or less the same quality. Synthetic nicotine would be quite expensive comparatively, and saving money is certainly one of the benefits of switching to vaping.

Here is what bothers me.: There are a few vapor stores in my area, and a few of them carry big, popular brands like EC, AIV, etc. There is a new local brand that has starting selling to the newer shops; I won't name this brand because I'm about to disparage it. This local brand is made in a shed in the guy's backyard. After I learned this, I have told every vaper I know about this because I believe that is completely unsanitary and that it is just a matter of time before they make a contaminated batch and somebody gets sick, or worse. However, I know for a fact that their liquid is being sold in at least 2 local shops, and that scares the crap out of me. These are the kind of people that are going to force the hand of government regulators.

I still have yet to see proof that an e-liquid supplier uses USP grade VG and PG.
I realize they are readily available, but most claim they use food grade, which isn't the same (and is much cheaper).

Side-note: Keep in mind that all, "Kosher," means is adhering to Jewish dietary law (of which there are many interpretations), so claiming to use only food grade, Kosher, USP ingredients doesn't mean all the ingredients are USP - it means some of the ingredients are food grade, some are USP grade, and likely all are Kosher (by their definition of Kosher).

Unless you actually know for a fact that he makes it in his shed (i.e. you've seen it with your own eyes), I wouldn't go around telling people that.

I know a guy at eSteam who claims that SmokeFX makes their e-liquids in their basement, while SmokeFX tells me it's imported from the US. Who is telling the truth? I don't know, but I'm certainly not going to tell people SmokeFX makes it in their basement, because I've never seen it.

Also, what I think is really funny is... Depending on the precautions he's taking, even if he is making it in his shed, it still might be just as safe as some of the, "professional," e-liquids around. lol

Okay... Funny, sad, and kinda scary.

 

[Schwiggiddy]

Unless you actually know for a fact that he makes it in his shed (i.e. you've seen it with your own eyes), I wouldn't go around telling people that.

I know a guy at eSteam who claims that SmokeFX makes their e-liquids in their basement, while SmokeFX tells me it's imported from the US. Who is telling the truth? I don't know, but I'm certainly not going to tell people SmokeFX makes it in their basement, because I've never seen it.

Also, what I think is really funny is... Depending on the precautions he's taking, even if he is making it in his shed, it still might be just as safe as some of the, "professional," e-liquids around. lol

Okay... Funny, sad, and kinda scary.

I used to work for a local vapor store, and our owner insisted on touring the "facility" before he would agree to carry their brand. It is an outbuilding, with doors open for ventilation, and he saw at least 1 fly in there. Also, one of the main mixers has pretty bad psoriasis and my store owner was very worried about that as well. Nobody wants to vape skin flakes. Needless to say, he decided not to carry their brand.

 

[stevegmu]

I still have yet to see proof that an e-liquid supplier uses USP grade VG and PG.
I realize they are readily available, but most claim they use food grade, which isn't the same (and is much cheaper).

What proof would you like to see? It comes down to trusting ones' vendors and not buying $3/100ml e-juice...

 

[Geoffrey White]

What proof would you like to see? It comes down to trusting ones' vendors and not buying $3/100ml e-juice...

Proof like COAs, or the results of testing by a trade association, etc. would be wonderful.

Why anyone would simply, "trust," any for-profit organization without any credentials being seen is beyond me.

I suppose if they actually claimed to use only pharmaceutical grade ingredients, even that might be nice... I haven't seen anyone say that yet (usually they'll say something like only pharmaceutical and food grade, etc.).

 

[stevegmu]

Proof like COAs, or the results of testing by a trade association, etc. would be wonderful.

Why anyone would simply, "trust," any for-profit organization without any credentials being seen is beyond me.

I suppose if they actually claimed to use only pharmaceutical grade ingredients, even that might be nice... I haven't seen anyone say that yet (usually they'll say something like only pharmaceutical and food grade, etc.).

Guess you have never heard of Halo...

 

[Geoffrey White]

Guess you have never heard of Halo...

I haven't. Should I have?

 

[AndriaD]

Maybe I should've worded it thusly:
Ingredients at least considered GRAS by the FDA, safe for inhalation by the EPA, meeting or exceeding USP standards, and currently inhaled in products already on the market which meet the appropriate standards, but preferably also approved by the FDA for inhalation.

I can see the point you're making, and it's a good one. However, zoidman also does have a point, in that substances that are approved for some uses by the FDA, may not necessarily be safe in other uses, in which a far greater quantity of that substance is taken/consumed/inhaled.

Propylene glycol is an excellent case in point. I've inhaled that stuff for more than 30 yrs, in albuterol inhalers, 8 or more "puffs" a day. All it ever did to me was cause a stubborn minor dehydration, which made any further causes of dehydration -- like crying or sweating -- that much more severe, but it wasn't un-livable, I just managed however I could.

But after I started vaping, I began suffering such extreme dehydration that my electrolytes got completely wonky, causing "cankles" and very painful lumpy feet, until I finally started treating the electrolyte problem by drinking coconut water daily, and adding other sources of potassium (and water!) while decreasing caffeine and sodium.

Any substance, no matter how seemingly "innocuous," may be dangerous, if it is taken/consumed in a different way from its original *approved* purpose, and if it is taken/consumed in far greater quantities than was originally intended, and approved for. A very simplistic example is that human bodies need water, but they do not need to inhale it, in fact inhaling it could kill them.

Andria

 

[Geoffrey White]

I can see the point you're making, and it's a good one. However, zoidman also does have a point, in that substances that are approved for some uses by the FDA, may not necessarily be safe in other uses, in which a far greater quantity of that substance is taken/consumed/inhaled.

Thank you for reiterating that point...

I'm apparently not a very clear communicator, so I apologize for the confusion.

I am not expecting an e-liquid using these much higher quality ingredients to be 100% safe.

My point is supposed to be that, in using these much higher quality ingredients (and manufacturing standards), the final product would be much safer than the current options, which would then also be better (if it were set as a standard) for any further studies on electronic cigarettes and their usage.

Which, in turn, would hopefully mean greater acceptance by government agencies and the general public for these devices to be considered legitimate alternatives to smoking, and to be treated as such.

 

[stevegmu]

I haven't. Should I have?

Yes, they are all about purity of ingredients...

 

[dragonpuff]

Many, if not most, of our e-liquids are "regulated" by free market choice and information, in that we demand high quality liquid, and the industry provides that. Many top quality liquids, such as those from Halo (as mentioned above), My Freedom Smokes, Nicoticket, etc. use pharmaceutical grade nicotine, VG and PG that are FDA approved, and flavorings that are GRAS (Generally Recognized as Safe) for use in food, though there is no GRAS standard for inhaled flavors yet, as Zoidman pointed out. These are things that customers want and most e-liquid manufacturers will thus deliver. In addition, research is in process to determine exactly which flavors are safe for inhalation - when those come in, the flavorings will be adjusted to fit the evidence, again in response to consumer demand.

OP originally makes the claim that if the liquid were of higher quality, governments may not feel so compelled to intervene. That's where it gets tricky, however. As someone who has been following the FDA deeming regulations bologna for some time, I can say with absolute certainty that the quality of the ingredients is the least of their issues. The FDA's major "concerns" are as follows:
- E-cigarettes have flavors that appeal to children, which may lead to an increase in children using and/or getting hooked on them
- E-cigarette use may act as a gateway to smoking traditional cigarettes
- The FDA is not aware of any evidence that e-cigarettes are safer than smoking
- E-cigarettes may lead to less people quitting, in that vaping encourages the person to retain the habit and continue smoking ("dual use")

All of their claims are easily refuted by scientific evidence that they have thus far refused to examine. I want to believe, OP, that you're right and simple quality control will keep e-cigs from being banned, but unfortunately that is not the case. What it will do, however, is prove to these governments that quality control is a high priority for our industry. That will help our case at some point, but we have to get past all the anti-ecig malarkey first.

 

[AndriaD]

Many, if not most, of our e-liquids are "regulated" by free market choice and information, in that we demand high quality liquid, and the industry provides that. Many top quality liquids, such as those from Halo (as mentioned above), My Freedom Smokes, Nicoticket, etc. use pharmaceutical grade nicotine, VG and PG that are FDA approved, and flavorings that are GRAS (Generally Recognized as Safe) for use in food, though there is no GRAS standard for inhaled flavors yet, as Zoidman pointed out. These are things that customers want and most e-liquid manufacturers will thus deliver. In addition, research is in process to determine exactly which flavors are safe for inhalation - when those come in, the flavorings will be adjusted to fit the evidence, again in response to consumer demand.

OP originally makes the claim that if the liquid were of higher quality, governments may not feel so compelled to intervene. That's where it gets tricky, however. As someone who has been following the FDA deeming regulations bologna for some time, I can say with absolute certainty that the quality of the ingredients is the least of their issues. The FDA's major "concerns" are as follows:
- E-cigarettes have flavors that appeal to children, which may lead to an increase in children using and/or getting hooked on them
- E-cigarette use may act as a gateway to smoking traditional cigarettes
- The FDA is not aware of any evidence that e-cigarettes are safer than smoking
- E-cigarettes may lead to less people quitting, in that vaping encourages the person to retain the habit and continue smoking ("dual use")

All of their claims are easily refuted by scientific evidence that they have thus far refused to examine. I want to believe, OP, that you're right and simple quality control will keep e-cigs from being banned, but unfortunately that is not the case. What it will do, however, is prove to these governments that quality control is a high priority for our industry. That will help our case at some point, but we have to get past all the anti-ecig malarkey first.

I made a post a couple months back that perfectly illustrates the FDA about e-cigs: that not only do they not WANT the truth, they're blocking their ears and hollering LA LA LA LA while running as far and fast away from the truth as they can possibly manage!

Andria

 

[dragonpuff]

I made a post a couple months back that perfectly illustrates the FDA about e-cigs: that not only do they not WANT the truth, they're blocking their ears and hollering LA LA LA LA while running as far and fast away from the truth as they can possibly manage!

Andria

... as children often do