Noob Question- Does More Nic always = more throat hit?

[rolygate]

............. Other tobacco alkaloids are simply carcinogenic and I would like to stay as far away from that as possible. Regular nicotine is fine with me

If this were the case, the morbidity and mortality stats from Sweden would be entirely different. Decades of clinical trials and surveys (more than 150) tell us that:

- A Snus user has the same health outcomes as a non-smoker
- A smoker who switches to Snus has the same health outcomes as a smoker who totally quits
- Snus does not elevate risk for any disease (including any cancer, and including oral cancer)

If your statement were true then the above statistics would not be possible. Sweden reduced the number of smokers by 40%, and the smoking-related morbidity is falling in parallel, which is why they have the lowest smoking-related mortality of any developed country by a wide margin. These facts all show that:

1. Long-term ad lib consumption of nicotine, statistically speaking, is harmless.
2. Long-term ad lib consumption of whole tobacco products, if they are not smoked, can statistically speaking be harmless.

(Individuals must take account of pre-existing medical conditions and tendencies.)

It appears that some of pharma's paid-for propaganda has been successful if people are saying that 'tobacco alkaloids other than nicotine are harmful/cancerous'. Indeed, we have absolute proof they are not.

This instance in particular
However what we don't have proof of is how pure the extraction methods used by some e-liquid contractors are, and this is an entirely different matter. It has been reported that some of the other alkaloids are very difficult to separate from associated carcinogens. We also know that at least one is contra-indicated in some cases (nornicotine negates one or more steroids).

Pure nicotine of pharmaceutical grade is just that: pure. What purity some assorted liquid extractions are cooked up by someone in their shed is a matter for speculation. Of course, the same goes for most of the e-liquid industry, in any case: show me some current published full analyses of a vendor's finished retail product. Go on - show me. It's all a huge mess begging for government regulation.

You want me to believe it's safe to inhale large quantities of this stuff for decades? Fine - show me the proof it's safe, then. Show me one vendor's website with current analyses of their finished retail product. And if you want me to describe WTA liquid as 'safe' then first you will have to show me a GC-MS analysis that provides some evidence that the people doing the extraction have some sort of a clue they know what they are doing.

WTAs worked for me as I used them for several months and was entirely satisfied with the results (getting off cigs), so I have no prejudice against them - as far as I am concerned they work. But if you want to describe an e-liquid with WTAs as safe - or to describe any e-liquid as safe, for that matter - you will have to do better than, "Fred says it's safe and he's a nice geezer". We have absolutely no idea what's in them.

 

[Diabolus]

When I first started I went with a low nic, good throat hit, but I got used to it. Then I went with a higher nic and got the same throat hit when I first started, but got used to that. Then upgraded again to a higher nic and got a good throat hit, but realized I'm going in the wrong direction with my nic intake.

I no longer worry about throat hit

 

[cigarbabe]

Double post!

 

[cigarbabe]

Thanks for that, cigarbabe! The more info the better, though I still will only give anectdotal "evidence" when talking about it. I am no scientist, or even all that versed in the language, but I do know that it has really made a big difference in my vaping style...for the BETTER!

For me WTA was what I was missing when vaping.
I can easily go through 10ml in a day when not using WTA.
When I wasn't using WTA I would be vaping all day with a device in each hand and never getting satiated.
I never got that over nic'ed feeling or speedy but was unfocused and had a "cloudy" feeling.
When I started using WTA I became focused calmer and much more pleasant to be around!
I sleep a hell of a lot better too!
C.B.

 

[cigarbabe]

This is post from an ECF member who has done quite a bit of research on WTA's and whom I believe is one of the most informed here on ECF about WTA's. Sadly ECF closed the thread I'm guessing because some members can't control themselves when others disagree with his views and possibly because some of us disagree with ECF's stance on WTA's in general.....I can never be sure why they do what they do....
C.B.

WTA / tobacco alkaloids :

95% nicotine
2-3% nornicotine
2-3% anatabine
0.3% anabasine

plus a few more at < 0.1%

E-liquid and WTA are 95% the same. Both are tobacco products. The only difference is that nic-only e-liquid removes the other alkaloids for no good reason; just the assumption that nicotine being the most significant by percentage must be the key. It is not the whole story - that's why nic. patches barely work. E-cigs do better because mimic the psycho-behavioural aspects of smking. But for many, they will puff incessantly on the nic only liquids and never be satiated; eventually drawn back to analogs.

Nicotine is the most 'dangerous' thing in it. With WTA, less is more; and that really does reduce any risks with nicotine or PG/VG or flavors.

I have studied this for some years. I have no involvement in any commercial ventures with WTA.

The scare mongering about WTA is exactly the same type of scare mongering about nic-only e-liquid. That anti-science nonsense could imperil the health of millions for who nicotine alone does not work (about half of smokers).

Last edited by kinabaloo; 10-15-2011 at 02:00 AM.

In fact, in a typical e-liquid, 20mg/ml say (2% alkaloids), a nic-only liquid and a WTA liquid would be ~ 99.9% the same.

 

[rolygate]

Sadly ECF closed the thread I'm guessing because some members can't control themselves when others disagree with his views and possibly because some of us disagree with ECF's stance on WTA's in general.....I can never be sure why they do what they do....

ECF doesn't have a stance on WTAs. It would be the same as for any e-liquid if we had one.

 

[cigarbabe]

Thanks for clarifying rolygate.
Good to know you don't have one yet!
C.B.

 

[Riverboat]

K thx. I'll check it out when I get a chance

My favorite juice is from Innovapor.com----Ultrapue e-liquid... I started with the 36mg, worked well for curbing my nic/fix.
Its 100% VG, some of the purest juice out there... Im still using it after 2 years but I did drop down to 30mg recently..
They have a permanate coupon code if you order from them.... ECF20... I have tried other vendors 100% VG and found them to be harsh.... .
But the Ultrapure is smooth even at 36mg...

 

[rolygate]

Thanks for clarifying rolygate.
Good to know you don't have one yet!
C.B.

I am totally in favour of WTAs being available for e-liquid addition for those who have cravings even on the highest strength nicotine (which incidentally may be in the process of changing from 36mg to 45mg at retail).

I used WTAs myself to help switch from smoking to ecigs.

I am totally against the sale of untested e-liquids containing who knows what, cooked up by who knows whom, who knows where, and designed to be inhaled in large quantities for decades. As far as I am concerned virtually all e-liquid sales are an unregulated disaster waiting to happen. This does not mean I would welcome regulation, by the way - it just means that while Fred can brew the stuff up in his garage and sell it to us with no analysis and even him not knowing what is in it, you should be worried.

I am all for individual choice, and if people want to pay as little as possible for an e-liquid them let them do so. Also tell them what is in it. Expensive and/or high-quality e-liquids should also be available - tell us where they were made, by whom, and exactly what is in them, in order to justify the price.

E-liquid vendors should publish a full analysis of their finished retail product every month (just one sample of one product would do, to start with). Not doing so is, to me, unethical, immoral, and potentially harmful.

Don't come to me and say your WTA liquid is 'safe'. As far as I am concerned, all e-liquids are potentially toxic until you show me the proof. "But Fred said it's OK" does not cut it with me.

So as you can probably see, I like the idea of WTAs. I don't like the idea of statements such as "Our e-liquid is good and it's safe". I'll assume you're living in cloud cuckoo land until you show me a 99.9% analysis of the finished retail product. The trouble is that we allow e-liquid vendors to get away with far, far too much. Someone producing an entirely new type of e-liquid is not going to get a smooth ride here until they do better than the current producers - who in some people's opinion are little better than backwoods hooch brewers. No one, let alone the people making it, has a clue what's in it. The whole thing is based on a chain of suppliers all telling the next one, "Don't worry, it's 100% pure".

Hope that's clear.

 

[IndyJones]

some very informative posts. I did not know anything about WTA. I spend a heck of a lot more time vaping than i did smoking. I generally vape 18 mg. I vape more than i smoke because it is so much more convenient and because i have found some truly tasty flavors. On sunday i spent several consecutive hours with relatives who i didn't want to know about me vaping and i was concerned about how much battery power i had left. I was satifisfied with sneaking a few drags every hour or so. I wouldn't be surprised if i am doing as much as 10 ml a day when i'm home. If i become concerned about vaping so much i might consider a WTA blend. I sometime vape 24 mg but i consider it to be slightly less enjoyable.

 

[cigarbabe]

My favorite juice is from Innovapor.com----Ultrapue e-liquid... I started with the 36mg, worked well for curbing my nic/fix.
Its 100% VG, some of the purest juice out there... Im still using it after 2 years but I did drop down to 30mg recently..
They have a permanate coupon code if you order from them.... ECF20... I have tried other vendors 100% VG and found them to be harsh.... .
But the Ultrapure is smooth even at 36mg...

How do you actually know what the "alleged purity" of Innovapor's juices are especially the "Ultrapure"?
I don't think they've had GC-MS testing done as far as I'm aware.
Although I could be dead wrong.
These are the exact kind of statements that rolygate was talking about!
Until every vendor can show a GC-MS report we really don't have a friggin' clue what may or may not be in our juices!
We can only assume and speculate that we hope these favored juices of ours are really safe to inhale......
Vape on Vape Hard and please Vape Safe people!
C.B.