Noob questions about snus

[telsie]

I love vaping and it keeps me from smoking, no problem. But since I stopped smoking, I've been experiencing depression (it's been months). My doctor believes (as I do) that my depression is likely caused by no longer getting MAOIs from tobacco. So he's given me a script for an antidepressant.

Before I try that antidepressant, I thought I'd try some snus just to see if that'll make me feel like myself again. Maybe it will, maybe it won't, but my depression isn't severe, so I think it's worth a shot. I have nothing against antidepressants, but if a little snus use could solve my problem, I'd like to know (I might prefer to medication).

I got the free sample pack from getsnus.com (and I also ordered one can of General Mini Mint that I don't have yet). I was wondering what to expect in terms of nicotine.

With vaping, I'm already getting plenty of nicotine. I alternate between 11mg and a 5.5mg mix throughout the day (more of the 11mg, though). Occasionally I'll use a couple drops of 18mg jsut for a boost, but honestly, I don't need it. Before vaping, I was a heavy smoker, but I smoked ultra lights. So it seems that my nicotine use has always tended toward low levels, used frequently.

If I stick a General Mini Mint snus in my mouth, am I going to get a wallop of nicotine? Or is it more gradual and I'll just know when I've had enough? Also, being a noobie, is there anything else I should know about snus?

Thanks!

 

[Dredbull]

the general minis should tide the light nic side of it. do not discount the added maoi and alkaloids. it maybe smooth snusing for ya or you may need a next step up. get a couple of recomendations and go from there.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Hi telsie . At this point I think the Mini Mints are a good place to start. They contain 4mg of nic and should fit right in with regular nicotine needs. If the amount is satisfactory you'll most likely vape less. Most who use snus find that they get most of what they need from the snus, then vaping becomes a more leisurely form of relaxation....alot like it was when smoking. I think it'll work for ya. The maoi effects are relative to the amount of nic, so low nic equals low maoi's. Might be just the ticket to get you back even-keel. I lean toward depression and anxiety, so I use high nic snus for high maoi action. Really keeps the lid on. In your case, symptoms sound mild so mild snus may be all that's needed. When you get it, take one of the mini's and tuck it between the upper lip and gum, toward the front (the farther back the portion, the quicker the nic unloads) the sit down and enjoy. The first portion or 2 will let you know if it's making a difference. Also, I leave a portion in for a minimum of 1 hour, but usually 2 hours, then go another hour or 2 or 3 before another. Your mileage may vary, but my average daily use is 5-6 portions......and I don't vape anymore, so it's my only nic source. Good luck and keep us posted, telsie .

 

[hittman]

telsie, what you describe was about where I was a few months ago except I didn't get a prescription. I started with the mini mints and now am using 3-4 8mg portions per day. It has made a world of difference for me and perhaps it can do the same for you. I still vape strong liquid but use alot less of it. I like you would rather snus than be on an antidepressant. Let us know how it works out for you.

 

[AllCoExPat]

Welcome, Telsie. Like vaping, I've found that snus is very subjective. I'm probably guilty of chain snus-ing now that I'm past the "my god this is salty" period. I had no luck quitting analogs with vape alone, but after a couple of weeks of snus, it's been very easy to not even think about smoking for the last six days. In those high stress moments, I still fall back on my PV, but it seems to be the MAOI and other bits in snus that keeps me from jumping down people's throats for no apparent reason now. I'd never claim to be a doctor, but I know snus is what has helped me level out. This sub-forum is full of helpful folks, so make sure you keep coming back! Happy snus-ing!

 

[jongleur]

As a rough guideline, and only a rough guideline, here are my estimates that may help in giving you a point to start from.

[B][U]            Product             [/U] || [U] Nic Present [/U] || [U]Nic Actually Absorbed[/U] || [U]    Nic Absorption Rate (and Feel)    [/U] || [U]MAOI (bio)available[/U][/B]
1.0 Average Cigarette               ~  7 to 13 mg       ~ 0.7 to 1.3 mg       Big spike, then a quickish letdown                yes
1.0 Mini Snus                       ~  4 mg             ~ 0.4 to 0.8 mg       Gentle rise; mostly slow, easy, steady            yes
1.0 "Portion" (Regular) Snus        ~  8 to  9 mg       ~ 0.8 to 1.8 mg       Gentle rise; mostly slow, easy, steady            yes
1.0 Stark Snus                      ~ 11 to 13 mg       ~ 1.1 to 2.6 mg       Gentle rise; mostly slow, easy, steady            yes
1.0 Extra Stark Snus                ~ 15 to 17 mg       ~ 1.5 to 3.4 mg       Gentle rise; mostly slow, easy, steady            yes
0.5 ml of Vaporized 11 mg Liquid    ~  5.5 mg           ~ 1.1 to 2.2 mg       Somewhere in between cig and snus                 no
0.5 ml of Vaporized 18 mg Liquid    ~  9.0 mg           ~ 1.8 to 3.6 mg       Somewhere in between cig and snus                 no

Of course, I'm not a scientist. I just steal a lot of info from scientists.

Hope that helps, anyway.

--John

 

[W Axl Rose]

Jong, I've never seen that chart...pretty neat? Where did you get that info?

 

[telsie]

Wow thank you all very much for the great info. I appreciate it. I really don't want to start relying on tobacco again, but I've read enough about snus that I do believe it's a pretty safe alternative. So I'll just see how it goes. I'll report back once I've tried it out.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Wow thank you all very much for the great info. I appreciate it. I really don't want to start relying on tobacco again, but I've read enough about snus that I do believe it's a pretty safe alternative. So I'll just see how it goes. I'll report back once I've tried it out.

Good, we're excited for you. And yeah, studies are good info. Matter of fact, I suppose some folks would kill to see a in depth report on PV's that show the kind of safety they have with Swedish snus .

As a rough guideline, and only a rough guideline, here are my estimates that may help in giving you a point to start from.


--John

Neat chart, buddy . Now I would assume the absorption amount is for a, roughly, 30 minute use. Similar to Swedish Match studies. Am I correct or have I missed something Stubby tried to get through to me? And how do you make those cool charts ?

 

[jongleur]

Jong, I've never seen that chart...pretty neat? Where did you get that info?

Neat chart, buddy . Now I would assume the absorption amount is for a, roughly, 30 minute use. Similar to Swedish Match studies. Am I correct or have I missed something Stubby tried to get through to me? And how do you make those cool charts ?

I guess I should have explained that table a little bit, rather than just putting a weak disclaimer to it.

It's all info I've gleaned over the months from various sources, as well as some personal impressions.

OK, some notes:

The "Product" column:
• The cigarette and the snus variations are what I considered one "dose". I could've titled the column "Dosage", but that sounds a bit too... um, druggy for me (or maybe just too medical).
• The ecig dose of 0.5 ml is a just a guesstimate of an average vaping session. Obviously, that varies quite a bit from person to person or from time to time. The 11 mg and 18 mg strengths I included because that's what Telsie, the OP, said she (or he?) used.

The "Nic Present" column:
• I've seen a fairly wide range quoted for different brands of cigarette, so I included most of the whole range here, gotten mostly from gray matter random access memory.
• For the snus, I just went by the manufacturer's/seller's ratings.
• For ecigs, it's just a little arithmetic, assuming the 11 mg and 18 mg ratings were accurate.

The "Nic Actually Absorbed" column:
• Although this column includes numbers, and that makes it seem like hard facts, it isn't quite. For one thing, it's a quantity dependent on a lot of factors, like alkalinity of an individual's mouth and the product used, individual metabolism, and other physiological and environmental factors a list of which I've actually never seen in any one place.
• In each case, I estimated based on the way and the length of time each product is usually used, also taking into account how much time usually elapses between usages. This goes for the "Absorption Rate" column, too.
• I believe the cigarette's range of total nicotine absorption is fairly generally known: I usually see about 1 mg being quoted.
• Snus estimates are based on 10% to 20% absorption. This I got from Swedish Match's site.
• The amounts absorbed from ecig vapor are actually just estimates of 20% to 40% absorption, based on my own somewhat non-scientifically (that means intuitively) derived combination of 1) a couple studies I read about here on ECF several months ago, and 2) DVap's estimates as shown on his ECF blog. These for me, at least empirically, seem to add up well.
• One last note about this column: "absorption" seems a kinda sloppy terminology to me, only because what we are really interested in is whether the body and brain "cares" about whatever is being absorbed, "knows" what to do with it, and what it does with it provides the expected benefit. I used the word because that's what most people seem to use, and at least it differentiates itself from "delivery".

The "Nic Absorption Rate (and Feel)" column:
• This is based on a series of graphic time-based charts from the Swedish Match site that show nicotine blood plasma levels over 1 to 2 hours after using the products. The charts do not include ecigs, so the words "Somewhere in between cig and snus" subjectively describes my own experience of the shape of the "attack-decay-sustain" curve over time (In case the musical people reading this are wondering, the "release" phase of the "attack-decay-sustain-release" pattern is not shown in these charts.)
• I use words in this column to subjectively describe just the shapes in the charts (but not the comparative levels -- that's what the "Nic Actually Absorbed" column is for. The shapes in the charts match up well to my own experience, so I added "(and Feel)" to the column head.

The "MAOI (bio)available" column:
• Well, I think many of us know by now whether these things offer MAOIs that the body and brain can and does actually use. I only put a "yes" or a "no" in this column, because what we don't yet know is "how much?" My answer, for myself, with snus anyway, is "enough"!

As to how to make these tables, I just use a text editor, a favorite monospace font, and a bunch of spaces. When you reply or post here, if you click on "CODE" (the button looks like "#"), it should show up in a post in anyone else's favorite monospace font, and automatically with a scrollbar if necessary to allow for long lines/rows.

...Whew.

Well, now you can see that I really did steal most of it.

I had a vague feeling when I posted that table, it was going to lead me to have to do some work. Man, I really hate work, but thanks for making me do it anyway. It gives me some good practice in explaining myself. It's been many years since I was in school and the teacher would give me a bad grade because I "didn't show my work", even while acknowledging that my answers were correct. I have a lot of tables here on my computer about all sorts of stuff that I've put together this way, and have gotten very accustomed to never having to ask myself "where did you get that info?". I just know that I can trust myself to have gotten it from what I considered reasonably reliable sources. The trouble with that is, when I share any of it, I can't very well expect others to have that same trust.

Thus this post.

But again, thanks for making me do it!

--John

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

I had a vague feeling when I posted that table, it was going to lead me to have to do some work. Man, I really hate work, but thanks for making me do it anyway.

But again, thanks for making me do it!

--John

And good work, indeed . No explanations needed, actually . Your figures and calculations are familiar to me, I just wanted to see how well you could explain 'em. .....No freebies on the Dark Side . Good job, John.

 

[W Axl Rose]

Very cool! I tried to copy and past the chart cuz I'd like to save it, but I wasn't able to.

 

[jojogardener]

Hi Telsie,
goodness, I can relate to everything you sayd!
I also felt that way - vaping alone was not cutting it for me.... then I found the snus/snuff threads and it has changed my life....
The mini mints and discreet are very calming...I have started to feel much better and I dont bite anyone anymore....lol.
there is a lot to learn so keep on reading and asking lots of questions... Goodness know I do........people here are very patient and understanding since they were where you and I are now...........

 

[Brewster 59]

John gave you quite a bit of info as did the others, The thing I think might get tricky is getting the right amount of Maois without overdoing the nic, since your use to a low amount of nic. I would suggest taking it easy on vaping when first getting use to Snus. Snus is a slow delerivy and you wont get a spike from it but it definetly will give a nic level in your system which does make it easy to overdo it when first learning the combo that works for you.

For me Snus gives me a deep feeling of being satisfyed and that sense of feeling mellow and the well being feeling that I didnt get from Vaping. It definetly helps with anxiety and depression for me anyways.

 

[telsie]

I tried a snus (General Mini Mint).

Um... Wow.

It's amazing. This isn't at all what I expected from snus and I'm so pleasantly surprised. I'm (dare I say it?) relaxed. This may be the first time since I quit smoking that I actually feel totally relaxed. That can't be from getting extra nicotine can it? I've vaped 24mg in the past and never felt like this. In fact, vaping high strength e-liquid these days just makes my heart beat faster.

When I first put that snus in my lip, it was awkward and dry and it burned the ..... out of my gums. Once it moistened up a bit, though, it was fine. And I like that minty/sweet/salty taste quite a bit. I kept waiting to *feel* something from it, then after maybe 30-40 minutes I realized how calm and relaxed I felt. There was no hit, no buzz, just an eventual *ah*. Very satisfying. There's no way to know yet if snus is going to help with this depression, but I definitely liked it.

I really wish they made smaller snus Smaller than minis?! Yes, smaller than minis! LOL. I'm a small chick, so it's not discreet at all under my lip. I started with it right in the center but ended up moving it off to the side a bit so it didn't feel to weird sitting there. Maybe next time I'll move it a tad further so it's less noticeable.

In conclusion:

Hi Telsie,
goodness, I can relate to everything you sayd!
I also felt that way - vaping alone was not cutting it for me.... then I found the snus/snuff threads and it has changed my life....
The mini mints and discreet are very calming...I have started to feel much better and I dont bite anyone anymore....lol.
there is a lot to learn so keep on reading and asking lots of questions... Goodness know I do........people here are very patient and understanding since they were where you and I are now...........

It's good to know I'm not the only female trying snus. It seems like such a guy thing to use and if I hadn't seen a couple women on here using them, I don't know if I would have tried it. I'm really glad I did. And I'm really glad snus is working well for you. I hope it does the same for me. How many snus a day do you use (if you don't mind me asking)?

John gave you quite a bit of info as did the others, The thing I think might get tricky is getting the right amount of Maois without overdoing the nic, since your use to a low amount of nic. I would suggest taking it easy on vaping when first getting use to Snus. Snus is a slow delerivy and you wont get a spike from it but it definetly will give a nic level in your system which does make it easy to overdo it when first learning the combo that works for you.

For me Snus gives me a deep feeling of being satisfyed and that sense of feeling mellow and the well being feeling that I didnt get from Vaping. It definetly helps with anxiety and depression for me anyways.

Mellow, yes! That's what it made me feel.

Yeah overdoing the nic is my main concern. With vaping, I use what I need, but my tolerance just seems to have dropped over the past few months and I'd rather not reverse that trend. I have no plans to trade vaping for snus, so if I find I want to use snus with any regularly, I can always drop my e-liquid nic level more. Thanks for the heads up on that.

 

[mycro]

the "discreet" brand snus is the smallest I think, smaller in size than the general mini mint even. I like the peach.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

I really wish they made smaller snus Smaller than minis?! Yes, smaller than minis! LOL.

telsie, that's great . You're right, vaping higher nic than you need only adds discomfort. What you've found in snus is the same as us so use it as you feel you need to. Caesarea and Hellen A. Handbasket do that and some days they don't feel the need. Tobacco itself isn't really a bad thing, it's just been manipulated by man in a way that makes it bad. Swedish snus stands on its own, and for me it goes into that "medicinal" category, like tea and other herbal remedies.

As far as placement, no real law there. I prefer portions on top and in the rear above the molars. I work in a "tobacco free" facility and discretion is a priority. The only "problem" with rear placement is that's also where some saliva ducts reside and can send the nic into your system quicker. Try it and see if it works for ya. Also, the burn comes from the mint. Peppermint and spearmint flavors burn a little when you first start using them, but after a week or so you won't feel it anymore.

 

[AlexTM]

Easiest way to get small potions: Buy loose snus, fold into cut-up tea bag. Lot cheaper, too. A bit inconvenient when you are not at home, but I am sure that could be solved, too. I just don't need to, I only snus at home, for some reason.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Easiest way to get small potions: Buy loose snus, fold into cut-up tea bag. Lot cheaper, too. A bit inconvenient when you are not at home, but I am sure that could be solved, too. I just don't need to, I only snus at home, for some reason.

I tend to get a little more antsy at home, myself.....hmmm.....

 

[KathyD26]

Telsie, the mini mint is currently my favorite snus also. I have a order coming from Northern later this week that will include a new flavor Iam anxious to try.