Not so good news

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tinstar15

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Some accomodation by the e cig industry of reasonably recognizable concerns might do us better.

Ask the NRA how well that has worked for them. Whenever they capitulated to some innane demand, it only created new and more onerous demands. Everytime an "anti" of any sort demands some "common sense" regulations or warnings, any capitulation leads to the "anti" side declaring it as a major victory which proves that they have been right. They then proceed to demand something harsher or more restrictive. They cry out that "we must think of the safety of the children" or that we must ban "fill-in-the-blank" to protect innocent people from accidental injury. We have to eat healthy whatevers and live long lives so that we can pay more taxes.

Personally, I think that our freedoms to vape an e-cig, eat a one pound bacon double cheeseburger with a side of deep fried onion rings, while drinking a heavily sugared and caffeinated beverage have been restricted far enough. Unless someone can prove that whatever the hell I'm doing is directly harming someone else, they can bugger off.

This era has proven that, if you give an inch, they WILL take a mile. The "anti" mentality is appeased by nothing less than 100% elimination of anything associated with their irrational fear. They have, and always will, attempt to spread that fear to others by any means they can conceive. The ends always justifies their means in their minds.
 

tinstar15

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I would absolutely love to see the day come that people could come together and discuss issues in a rational manner. Each side considering the other's point of view without over reacting or demanding extreme solutions to relatively minor issues. Haven't seen it happen in a long time.

Sociologically, this country seems to be acting in an increasingly hostile and polarized manner over the most inconsequential of issues while paying little to no attention to those things which most require said attention. There can be no middle ground. Why entire Foundations or Agencies seem so hell bent to eradicate something so minor is perplexing. If their products or services are so unassailable, safe, effective, and approved, why then all the half-truths and junk science?

If e-cigs are so harmful, would it not stand to reason that someone somewhere would have spoken out about it? I hardly think that an unorganized and fledgling group of e-cig related product manufacturers have the ability to suppress such facts. To conceal a truth requires organization, massive amounts of cooperation between persons of power and persons with money, and a means to disseminate propaganda and spin.

Some might say that the early FDA examinations were evidence that e-cigs are harmful. Even if the generally debunked FDA trials were true, they have no bearing on this generation of devices and supplies. It would be akin to holding humanity accountable for the sins of the dinosaurs.

It is conceivable that early supplies could have been of questionable quality standards. Those errors would have been corrected by now, considering that we consumers refuse to deal with such inconsistencies or flaws. We demand perfection, and we vote with our dollars.

When I think back to my first days of vaping, I marvel at our current assortment of vaping goodies. I remember back when there were only a handful of decent honest suppliers with limited quantities. Prices were higher and selection was limited.

Nowadays we can get flavors I never imagined to use with whatever sort of device we want. None of this would be remotely possible if not for DEMAND. Demand cannot come from a void. If this collection of assorted devices and liquids was truly ineffective, useless, and harmful there would be no demand. The industry would fold and move on to more profitable ventures.
 

Vocalek

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Using the antis logic, drain cleaner and Bacardi should be banned. :D

Better still, everything should be banned and we should all be put in individual, nanny state controlled plastic bubbles, where there will be no danger of us contaminating each other or getting our hands on potentially dangerous substances. :thumb:

To put it plainly. Get out of my life, do-gooders and concern yourselves with your own lives, if you have one.

OMG, Jerry, where have you been? Now that there is no SE vs FDA thread to follow, I have missed your witticisms. I mostly hang out in the News forums these days.
 

Vocalek

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Tinstar15: Your post brings to mind some of the things I heard this afternoon, tuned into the webcast from the FDA on the TPSAC meeting to consider regulation of Dissolvable Tobacco products.

One of the presenters from Star Scientific, makers of Ariva and Stonewall orbs (as well as the versions of these two products known as "BDL" due to Barely Detectible Levels of nitrosamines) stated that they are closely watching for any reports of people being poisoned by dissolvables, and so far there have been no problems in the 10 years their products are on the market. Someone on the committee mentioned that the Poison Control Centers were now starting to track dissolvable tobacco products and e-cigarette cartridges, and e-cigarette liquids as separate line items in their data.

Another of the tobacco industry presenters (can't recall whether it was Star or RJ Reynolds (makers of Camel orbs, strips, and sticks) said that poisoning of small children has nothing whatsoever to do with flavors. Little kids are attracted to bright colors, which is why so many are poisoned by household cleaning products (Windex is a pretty shade of blue). Really little kids will eat the most nasty tasting things.

One more fact that came out is that oral nicotine poisoning tends to be self-correcting. If you take in too much nicotine too fast, your body rejects it. It tends to come back out the same way it went in. Perhaps that's why there have been so few fatalities from tobacco poisonings.
 

Cuss

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Large tobacco companies, in my opinion, don't like e-cigs for multiple reasons. Its a competitor, albeit a small and at this time non-threatening one. I'm glad that they are looking into production of their own liquid and devices, that is the rational move to compete in the growing market that has limitless potential. Big tobacco isn't, or wouldn't be a threat on its own. The threat is their sway via lobbying the FDA. Big business alone is never the enemy, big business is great and improves everyone's quality of life in the long run. The enemy is the government allowing big business to push out or completely destroy competition by making them live up to impossible standards or pay outrages fees that large corporations can accommodate or pay with ease and little guy could never afford. Big tobacco pays excessive taxes and is under tight costly regulation and the easiest way for them to push e-cigs out of the market is to lobby the FDA to put them under the same guidelines. And with all the agencies and organizations funded by these taxes, of course they will fight to keep people on analogs, or they lose their funding.

The government wants their piece of the pie as well. For analogs, did you know that per pack the government makes 2x the profit through taxes than the tobacco company gets. Same with alcohol and gasoline. Sin taxes are great aren't they. Each hold the government gets attaching itself to an industry and sucking off it like a vampire never ends. It would take drastic change that is probably decades away for this cycle to ever come to an end.

Ok, I apologize for that rant. Its been on my mind for a while and this seemed like a relative place to vent. :p
 

VapPornRules

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I've only been vaping a month and I will be vaping for a long time to come - but I am habitually incapable of avoiding an honest argument.

That being said, while I don't like the tone of this article, it does not seem to me to be factually inaccurate (except it understates that you can get higher than 20mg prefilled cartos).

Regarding the "drano is bad too" argument - the point is that the bottles you get in the mail are not labeled as poison, and in many cases do not come in child proof bottles.

I want to vape. I am vaping. But we live in a country that regulates products like these and this is going to affect us. I think it is better to recognize legitimate criticism rather than brush it all off.
 

Uncle Willie

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I suspect the quid pro quo arugments about other products that might require precautions, while true won't do us well in the face of authorities that might be deciding the future of our interests. Too much of it may seem too argumentative. Some accomodation by the e cig industry of reasonably recognizable concerns might do us better.

Agreed .. when in debate, it's important to stick to the product at hand .. and like products ..
 

Uncle Willie

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Ask the NRA how well that has worked for them. Whenever they capitulated to some innane demand, it only created new and more onerous demands. Everytime an "anti" of any sort demands some "common sense" regulations or warnings, any capitulation leads to the "anti" side declaring it as a major victory which proves that they have been right. They then proceed to demand something harsher or more restrictive. They cry out that "we must think of the safety of the children" or that we must ban "fill-in-the-blank" to protect innocent people from accidental injury. We have to eat healthy whatevers and live long lives so that we can pay more taxes.

Personally, I think that our freedoms to vape an e-cig, eat a one pound bacon double cheeseburger with a side of deep fried onion rings, while drinking a heavily sugared and caffeinated beverage have been restricted far enough. Unless someone can prove that whatever the hell I'm doing is directly harming someone else, they can bugger off.

This era has proven that, if you give an inch, they WILL take a mile. The "anti" mentality is appeased by nothing less than 100% elimination of anything associated with their irrational fear. They have, and always will, attempt to spread that fear to others by any means they can conceive. The ends always justifies their means in their minds.

I don't disagree, however, the "anti" voice is apparently louder than the counter side .. why is that .. ??
 

tinstar15

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The "anti" side is almost always louder. They tend to be comprised of people who are already organized against other similar ideaologies or products. Take a look at the organizations rallied against us. Nearly all are already firmly established anti-tobacco organizations.

These groups have had decades to grow, securing funding from numerous sources. They have acquired or established research facilities, staffed their offices with attorneys, hired publicists and multi format media designers/producers. They have moved into government circles through agressive lobbying and have secured impressive stores of assests through lawsuits and private donations.

Adding e-cigs to their target list was an easy choice. They may look like a analog, they emit a smoke-like vapor, they sometimes contain nicotine, ergo they must be elimanated. Why let facts get in the way of a good fundraising or lobbying scheme. And look at all the folks willing to give them money, anti-smoke groups, pharmaceutical companies, tobacco companies, etc. Hell, this issue is a cash cow from heaven to the antis. Money from EVERYWHERE!!!

All of this has come to be simply because someone decided that smoking was bad and started to rally a few like minded individuals against it. But once money and power become factors, the beast grew to its current outrageous proportions. Power and money are often acquired through the manipulation of a simple fear. People are afraid of pollution or global warming, they give money and power to the environmentalists. They become powerful and the next thing you know, you can't drive an SUV. People afraid of "second hand smoke", you get massive anti-tobacco groups. These groups then exagerate or otherwise overstate the dangers of whatever fear they wish to capitalize on.

Look at what happened after 9/11 when the anthrax powder scare had everyone in America calling the cops for dusty junk mail. Hazmat teams collecting up Aunt Ginnie's cable bill. The mere suggestion that it was possible caused millions to panic. So what if it was a relatively isolated incident. Doesn't matter that the legitimate targets were government officials. Everyone thought that Al Queda was trying to kill Bob the lawn guy down the road. Companies made money selling biohazard defense gear, politicians passed bizarre safety laws and security regulations.

Capitalizing on fear is the easiest and quickest path to establishing power and funding. By the time that fear begins to pass, it's too late. The foothold has been secured, and getting rid of it becomes a near logistical impossibility. It becomes self-sustaining.

Even after that fear has been proven irrational or misguided, there will still be "true-believers". No argument, logic, fact, or reason can ever dissuade them. And when you attempt to question their faith, they will not counter with reason, they will shout out pre-arranged talking points and crank up the volume and anger.
 
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wazzup592

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I've got some bleach in the cabinet that will kill an adult. Bleach is handled by people daily. I can't believe I just read that whole article. What a joke. I'm sad to say though of ecigs get any bigger, an accident is bound to happen with nicquid and that's when sh** will hit the fan for us.. I fear the day so.ebody actually gets hospitalized or worse killed from the nicotine. That is one reason I use the term nicquid over juice. Last thing I want is some young kid thinking its really juice and chugs it down cause it smells so good. The term ecig needs to be killed off as well. There are thousands of us, how haven't we thought up something new. I'm sick of being tied in with smokers because of the term "e-cig"
 

hisfattness

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how much was that writer paid ?

whose are behind that article ? i think we already know that answer
He probably got paid a lot by fig companies and the government worried about tax losses, possibly the healrhcare industry cuz treating smokers is big money, and maybe insurance companies cuz premiums are cheaper for non smokers. Wazz I got drano if I drank it would kill me I believe.



Sent from my HTC Glacier using Tapatalk
 

Cool_Breeze

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I've got some bleach in the cabinet that will kill an adult. Bleach is handled by people daily. I can't believe I just read that whole article. What a joke. I'm sad to say though of ecigs get any bigger, an accident is bound to happen with nicquid and that's when sh** will hit the fan for us.. I fear the day so.ebody actually gets hospitalized or worse killed from the nicotine. That is one reason I use the term nicquid over juice. Last thing I want is some young kid thinking its really juice and chugs it down cause it smells so good. The term ecig needs to be killed off as well. There are thousands of us, how haven't we thought up something new. I'm sick of being tied in with smokers because of the term "e-cig"

Should such an incident happen, I hope the e-cig industry is prepared with some response other than, 'somebody else died with some household product...'
 

Uncle Willie

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I get so tired of the constant conspiracy theory as well as the constant comparisons to common every day items and their possible health hazzards .. none of that means anything ..

When the e-cig is put under scrutiny, it will be judged on it's own merits or lack there of .. the industry should be concentrating on making it an easy to use, safe as possible product ..

And on the conspiracy issue, all the years of anti smoking campaigns that have come from the Government apparently mean little to nothing .. Uncle Sam, the Hospital Cartel and the Insurance Cartel actually all want us to smoke ..

As well, until the Industry steps up and does a Nation wide education campaign with some real effort directed at legislators, we are and will continue to be, a fringe group ..

I don't want to lose my right to e-cig use .. and I've written my legislators ..
 

VapPornRules

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What I found very funny was in the very first paragaraph:

posing unknown risks with little new benefits to smokers, according to tobacco control experts.

I agree this was the worst part of the article (importantly this was the journalist's addition and not a quote from the study). BUT it appears to be based on this part of the study itself:

The devices do not reliably deliver nicotine, and have not been sufficiently evaluated in scientific studies the way the FDA requires of other drugs and devices used for smoking cessation. Smokers attempting to use e-cigarettes as quitting aids will most likely find them ineffective due to the fluctuating nicotine content and unpredictable delivery

I would like to look at the study to see where they came up with this conclusion -- certainly I have quit smoking (1 month now) using vaping and it has been relatively easy, but keep in mind I immediately realized that my Smoketip starter kit was not going to do the trick, and I now have several ego style mods and a provari, along with LR cartomizers, MAP tanks, and liquinators, along with alot of 36mg juice!

But how many people who buy their first e-cig at the gas station are going to go to the effort I have to find all these options? If you look at the big picture -- maybe ecigs are NOT an effective means of quitting smoking for the large majority of smokers ONLY because the industry is so fractured and quality control is non-existent.

Even more than regulation, what the ecig industry needs are for some of the small players to "break out" and become serious businesses, with options for the heavy smokers. Regulation might actually help the industry to get there by making the barriers to entry higher -- or it might kill the industry altogether and push it underground
 

Uncle Willie

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But how many people who buy their first e-cig at the gas station are going to go to the effort I have to find all these options? If you look at the big picture -- maybe ecigs are NOT an effective means of quitting smoking for the large majority of smokers ONLY because the industry is so fractured and quality control is non-existent.

Even more than regulation, what the ecig industry needs are for some of the small players to "break out" and become serious businesses, with options for the heavy smokers. Regulation might actually help the industry to get there by making the barriers to entry higher -- or it might kill the industry altogether and push it underground

exactly .. the longer things go like it is now, the better the chance we're going to be pushed into whatever "The Man" wants ..
 
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