Now is the Time To Act! I am Serious! **updated**
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.....and I'll round up the Boston Tea Party Group, and some of our Quebec Quoi, can't leave them out, to rally around the guillotine!!!Yep, that's what we need.....An off with the Elitist Heads Party! Time to purge the insanity out of the inner breeding bloodline!
Bones,
"People on the whole seem to have lost the ability to decide what their opinion is unless they are given it"
This is exactly what I was talking about, so what is your stance? you claim public opinion has no effect yet you believe they are "given" their opinions?
Public opinion does make a difference, and the politicians and special interest know it. That is why they are playing the word games and tricks that they are playing.
**** Cheney had stated that he only needed 30% to push any agenda, and he was right. 30 % of the population in favor of something, no matter how crazy, gives them all they need to do as they please, don't believe it? visit the graves of over 1 million Iraq citizens that died because of our invasion that was lead by total deception and mass support.
Why do you think the Media Moguls buy up so many media outlets? To control public opinion.
I hate to say it, but you need to look up "doublespeak" because you just practiced it. Here is an example that you may recognize from 2001, 2002 and 2003, "I am willing to give up liberty for freedom". It was splattered all over the news.
"People on the whole seem to have lost the ability to decide what their opinion is unless they are given it"
This is exactly what I was talking about, so what is your stance? you claim public opinion has no effect yet you believe they are "given" their opinions?
Public opinion does make a difference, and the politicians and special interest know it. That is why they are playing the word games and tricks that they are playing.
**** Cheney had stated that he only needed 30% to push any agenda, and he was right. 30 % of the population in favor of something, no matter how crazy, gives them all they need to do as they please, don't believe it? visit the graves of over 1 million Iraq citizens that died because of our invasion that was lead by total deception and mass support.
Why do you think the Media Moguls buy up so many media outlets? To control public opinion.
I hate to say it, but you need to look up "doublespeak" because you just practiced it. Here is an example that you may recognize from 2001, 2002 and 2003, "I am willing to give up liberty for freedom". It was splattered all over the news.
ummm, I think that you both are right. People are being given info to influence their opinions. As well as info being withheld from them, so that they don't have all the facts to make an informed opinion.
And as for Bones remark: "People on the whole seem to have lost the ability to decide what their opinion is unless they are given it".......
I have been watching Alex Jones videos and when he goes to the US people with a microphone in his hand asking them their opinion......they don't even know what the question means, so how can they give an opinion. Meaning they have lost their ability to make an opinion because they are not informed. Bones is right....todays people are all about having a good time, rather than self educating themselves. Not all people, but quite a majority of them. yes? no?
Hey, we have that up here too. So many people haven't got a clue of what is going on. That's just my 3 cents.
I'd be more likily to go south then north, I put on a sweater at 75 if there is a breeze. Don't do cold at all.
yeah, but what's south??? either mexico or south america....hmmm at least with us, we're americanized without most of the b.s. lololol
and like i said.....vancouver has an area called the banana belt....the weather is like california. what can be better than that? you don't have to worry about some banana republic gov't running your life. and canada has free quality health care.........ALL FREE!!!!
Following Sun Vapor's thread about the FDA daily docket sheet, it turns out this isn't true. I'd thought the same thing----that an electronic device is entirely outside the "law" regarding e-cigs.
However; there's a clever concept regarding "intended use." The e-cig is explicitly intended to be used as a drug-delivery system, delivering nicotine to the body. As such, the "law" offers the FDA the authority to demand that such devices go through an approval process.
Since the e-cigs have not gone through such a process, they may be removed from the market by the FDA (working through Customs).
A more compelling argument is that tobacco and nicotine delivery systems are already on the market in other forms, AND they provide massive amounts of tax money for politicians to piss away. With many states in budget shortfalls, it would very definitely be to a political advantage to quickly approve e-cigs, then raise the prices via taxes.
To AVOID revolution - ! - Did you vote on the Iraq war? NO! - Just had enough folks to keep us busy arguing among ourselves rather than banding together and storming the Bastille - I did not practice doublespeak - Nor do I appreciate your condescension by insinuating that I don't know what words mean -
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That is about current devices made to be e-cigs - New devices produced after the fact and labeled as "aroma-therapy" or "herbal-vaporizers" are an entierly different subject - Volcano Vaporizers - Herbal Vaporizers - Tobacco Vaporizers - Herbal Vaporizer - Buy Vaporizer - I was speaking more to the concept of a similar device - not the specific e-cig device - Sorry I was not very clear there - I have been much more detailed in previous posts - It does get confusing
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Wow, conspiracy mongering, paranoia and a good flame war... This thread rocks.
It's the little guys against Big Tobacco and Big Pharma! Ding, Ding, Ding! Of course, we're the little guys who have lined Big Tobacco's pockets for most of our lives. I blessedly have missed out on Big Pharma, but my day is coming.
After looking around at the various suppliers on the board, there are few if any who take a payment system other than Paypal. After a bad experience dealing with Drew from NHaler, my first thought is that E-Cigs are screaming for someone to get on as a supplier who has their act together. This is not meant as an offense to the E-cigt suppliers... But businesses who are still using Paypal as their ONLY form of payment usually don't have their act together. It's not that hard to get a CCard merchant account, and the fees become manageable early on. Why is it that the local lunch place can manage to take real Credit Cards for $7 lunches but suppliers tell us that the fees master-card wants are too high?
I would bet that many of these suppliers do 100 orders a day. At $50 an order, that's $5K a day gross. You're telling me that they can't get a merchant account?
If the FDA's report showed us nothing it's that unregulated products from China often have unwanted toxins and such that we don't want. Whether it's painting your child's toy with lead paint or putting Ethyl Glycol in you e-cig, generally Chinese manufacturers should all be treated with a certain level of skepticism.
An unregulated US system would be a boon to our basement entrepreneurs, but these are the same people who are least likely to be really checking the products they receive. Most of these same places don't even follow good packaging guidelines.
I sell POS systems, shipping systems, and design e-commerce solutions for a living. I work with small merchants all day, every day. I've seen people who only pull in $300 a day gross get a real merchant account with all the major Credit Card companies. I'm amazed that out of the 10 or so suppliers I asked, NONE took anything but Paypal.
These are the people who are supposed to go through the process to get FDA approval?
Frankly, I'm very leery of what might be contained in any bottle of Nic Juice I might get. MSDS sheets are fine, but it's not like they painted Polly Pocket with lead and then stuck a big sticker on the package that said: "Contains Lead!" No, they f**k s**t up and hope noone notices.
The only thing positive you can really say about it is that you KNOW real tobacco has Arsenic, Cadmium, etc... We hope/trust that the e-cig doesn't.
If ANY ingestable product makes a health claim of any sort, it falls under FDA regs. If you say "It's healthier than cigs", it's the FDA's purview. If you market it as a stop smoking aid, it falls under FDA purview. I have not come across an E-cig site yet that doesn't make one of those two claims.
So, send letters to whomever telling them how E-cigs have helped you quit smoking and you're fanning the fires of the FDA. They can point to these letters and say "Well, people who use e-cigs think of them as a quit smoking device, and the FDA has to regulate those."
In a broader sense, the e-cig IS a drug delivery system. It delivers a measured amount of a drug to the user. That certainly falls under FDA perview. The FDA went after analog cigs the same way before having to back off because the cig is not a measured dose... But when you put 26mg on the side of a bottle of e-liquid, you're offering a measured dose.
I am shocked to hear the suppliers talk about this remaining an unregulated industry with us trusting suppliers we hardly know getting items from China where cutting corners is just good business sense. I for one would sleep easier knowing that this was a regulated industry.
I believe that all of the suppliers on this board (except for Drew from NHaler) have the best intentions. However, if this wasn't taking the place of a product I KNOW will kill me eventually, I wouldn't touch this with a ten foot pole. If these same people were selling pot in the same way, I'd pass. "Gee, pot from China via a seller I don't know from Adam? Sign me up."
As a customer, I hope that someone is driven to get FDA approval for these products. I would sleep easier at night. If noone has even begun that step, I can hardly imagine that the pressure from the gov. is so great that the time to act is NOW!
E-cigs will eventually be regulated by the FDA. I don't see any way around that. If they are not FDA approved as quit smoking devices, then they will be taxed as a luxury item much like real tobacco is today.
And for the supplier who raised the scare about the FDA requiring us to have prescriptions for e-liquid.... You can buy both the patch and Nic gum over the counter. How is it logical to assume that FDA approval means that e-liquid will be harder to get than head from a nun? My local drug store has the gum behind the counter where they used to keep the condoms. Now the condoms are out in the open and the cigars and pipes all have to live behind the counter.
Sorry to rant, but whomever said that they want this to remain an unregulated industry isn't speaking to my wants and desires. And anyone who thinks that the Tax Man and the FDA aren't going to get their grubby fingers in this pie is deluding themselves.
It's the little guys against Big Tobacco and Big Pharma! Ding, Ding, Ding! Of course, we're the little guys who have lined Big Tobacco's pockets for most of our lives. I blessedly have missed out on Big Pharma, but my day is coming.
After looking around at the various suppliers on the board, there are few if any who take a payment system other than Paypal. After a bad experience dealing with Drew from NHaler, my first thought is that E-Cigs are screaming for someone to get on as a supplier who has their act together. This is not meant as an offense to the E-cigt suppliers... But businesses who are still using Paypal as their ONLY form of payment usually don't have their act together. It's not that hard to get a CCard merchant account, and the fees become manageable early on. Why is it that the local lunch place can manage to take real Credit Cards for $7 lunches but suppliers tell us that the fees master-card wants are too high?
I would bet that many of these suppliers do 100 orders a day. At $50 an order, that's $5K a day gross. You're telling me that they can't get a merchant account?
If the FDA's report showed us nothing it's that unregulated products from China often have unwanted toxins and such that we don't want. Whether it's painting your child's toy with lead paint or putting Ethyl Glycol in you e-cig, generally Chinese manufacturers should all be treated with a certain level of skepticism.
An unregulated US system would be a boon to our basement entrepreneurs, but these are the same people who are least likely to be really checking the products they receive. Most of these same places don't even follow good packaging guidelines.
I sell POS systems, shipping systems, and design e-commerce solutions for a living. I work with small merchants all day, every day. I've seen people who only pull in $300 a day gross get a real merchant account with all the major Credit Card companies. I'm amazed that out of the 10 or so suppliers I asked, NONE took anything but Paypal.
These are the people who are supposed to go through the process to get FDA approval?
Frankly, I'm very leery of what might be contained in any bottle of Nic Juice I might get. MSDS sheets are fine, but it's not like they painted Polly Pocket with lead and then stuck a big sticker on the package that said: "Contains Lead!" No, they f**k s**t up and hope noone notices.
The only thing positive you can really say about it is that you KNOW real tobacco has Arsenic, Cadmium, etc... We hope/trust that the e-cig doesn't.
If ANY ingestable product makes a health claim of any sort, it falls under FDA regs. If you say "It's healthier than cigs", it's the FDA's purview. If you market it as a stop smoking aid, it falls under FDA purview. I have not come across an E-cig site yet that doesn't make one of those two claims.
So, send letters to whomever telling them how E-cigs have helped you quit smoking and you're fanning the fires of the FDA. They can point to these letters and say "Well, people who use e-cigs think of them as a quit smoking device, and the FDA has to regulate those."
In a broader sense, the e-cig IS a drug delivery system. It delivers a measured amount of a drug to the user. That certainly falls under FDA perview. The FDA went after analog cigs the same way before having to back off because the cig is not a measured dose... But when you put 26mg on the side of a bottle of e-liquid, you're offering a measured dose.
I am shocked to hear the suppliers talk about this remaining an unregulated industry with us trusting suppliers we hardly know getting items from China where cutting corners is just good business sense. I for one would sleep easier knowing that this was a regulated industry.
I believe that all of the suppliers on this board (except for Drew from NHaler) have the best intentions. However, if this wasn't taking the place of a product I KNOW will kill me eventually, I wouldn't touch this with a ten foot pole. If these same people were selling pot in the same way, I'd pass. "Gee, pot from China via a seller I don't know from Adam? Sign me up."
As a customer, I hope that someone is driven to get FDA approval for these products. I would sleep easier at night. If noone has even begun that step, I can hardly imagine that the pressure from the gov. is so great that the time to act is NOW!
E-cigs will eventually be regulated by the FDA. I don't see any way around that. If they are not FDA approved as quit smoking devices, then they will be taxed as a luxury item much like real tobacco is today.
And for the supplier who raised the scare about the FDA requiring us to have prescriptions for e-liquid.... You can buy both the patch and Nic gum over the counter. How is it logical to assume that FDA approval means that e-liquid will be harder to get than head from a nun? My local drug store has the gum behind the counter where they used to keep the condoms. Now the condoms are out in the open and the cigars and pipes all have to live behind the counter.
Sorry to rant, but whomever said that they want this to remain an unregulated industry isn't speaking to my wants and desires. And anyone who thinks that the Tax Man and the FDA aren't going to get their grubby fingers in this pie is deluding themselves.
A perfectly rational, truthful post, Lost. You might be attacked by an angry mob of frantic fanboys here, but you wrote the truth. The present unregulated, unknown situation is, and has been for more than a year, untenable. Change is coming quickly. We won't like it. But it's essential and only those blinded by e-passion can't separate belief/faith/hope from assurances of safety, efficacy and product quality control that we need and must have.
I have a real issue with that statement. I see absolutely no reason why the government should collect more than a nominal sales tax from the sale of this product.
And I would agree. I am not stating what it will be in a perfect world, I'm just stating the current political realities. In this economic climate, with state governments scraping for tax revenue... Anything that is seen as a way of circumventing the Cig tax will most likely get taxed.
Well the only way that our government can shrink back to a reasonable size is if they run out of money. The more they get to tax us, the bigger they get and the more freedoms they get to take away from us. Remember this is the land of the FREE and the BRAVE.
I don't have enough knowledge of the computer to do this, but I'm sure it could be done.
Can someone set it up to mail all these representative at once. A lot more people would do this if it possible.
Or list all the email addresses so they can be copied and pasted if you don't want it to look like a massive email.
I guess the latter would be best as long as each was sent as a blind copy.
I'm handicapped and can't sit for long periods of time so it'd take me forever to this by visiting each site.
Please, I ask for the help, and I'm sure many would do this if this option was available.
Can someone set it up to mail all these representative at once. A lot more people would do this if it possible.
Or list all the email addresses so they can be copied and pasted if you don't want it to look like a massive email.
I guess the latter would be best as long as each was sent as a blind copy.
I'm handicapped and can't sit for long periods of time so it'd take me forever to this by visiting each site.
Please, I ask for the help, and I'm sure many would do this if this option was available.
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We accept all major credit cards at our kiosk. If We sell five thousand dollars worth of product in a week then I am popping bubbly. And unlike most internet suppliers we have astronomical mall rent to pay. As well as business insurance. Payroll for sales staff. Marketing literature. If these suppliers are selling 5 grand a day out of their basement they should be so wealthy by the time the fda puts us all under that they will be able to retire. And yet it is the kiosk people who are portrayed as greedy. And for the record paypal is a ripoff and we would NEVER deal with them.
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Resting easier at night just because FDA okayed something???
Meaning no disrespect, but why? Write it, believe it, it becomes the "truth"? The FDA "okayed" dozens of drugs that have proven to be detrimental to the health and well being of hundreds of thousands of people. The FDA totally ignores hundreds of drugs that could be of benefit to thousands of people. WHY? Political agendas and money.
It is not "better than anything else" out there. It is ridiculous to paint it as such or to fall into the trap of thinking of it as such. It is ridiculous for American adults to abdicate ANY of their rights to ANY branch of the government without a hard fight. It is NOT
the job of the federal government to keep us "safe". It is the federal government's job to provide for a fair and equitable means of commerce between the states.
Talk about "cutting corners"! Quit handing over your right to determine what is best for YOU to some organization that is headed by people APPOINTED by whomever is in office as a "thank-you" for supporting them.
Quit falling for fallacious arguments driven by political agendas.
Meaning no disrespect, but why? Write it, believe it, it becomes the "truth"? The FDA "okayed" dozens of drugs that have proven to be detrimental to the health and well being of hundreds of thousands of people. The FDA totally ignores hundreds of drugs that could be of benefit to thousands of people. WHY? Political agendas and money.
It is not "better than anything else" out there. It is ridiculous to paint it as such or to fall into the trap of thinking of it as such. It is ridiculous for American adults to abdicate ANY of their rights to ANY branch of the government without a hard fight. It is NOT
the job of the federal government to keep us "safe". It is the federal government's job to provide for a fair and equitable means of commerce between the states.
Talk about "cutting corners"! Quit handing over your right to determine what is best for YOU to some organization that is headed by people APPOINTED by whomever is in office as a "thank-you" for supporting them.
Quit falling for fallacious arguments driven by political agendas.
Whew! Finally, I think I read almost all of these 40 some odd pages of this thread.
How many celebs have been contacted about this? How many writers for tv shows? Movies? Authors for characters in their books?
"Make" vaping a part of the "norm".
How many celebs have been contacted about this? How many writers for tv shows? Movies? Authors for characters in their books?
"Make" vaping a part of the "norm".
Y E S ! ! ! finely get get to really use my " efax " account . lol
fight for our rights or loose them. your choice.
fight for our rights or loose them. your choice.
I truly believe the reason governments are agreeing to ban e-cigarettes is for the potential lost tax revenue and this is really what we are fighting against! Each state in the U.S. receives millions of dollars annually from tobacco taxes. Additionally, the federal government receives millions, if not billions, of dollars from tobacco taxes. Our governments are as addicted to tobacco tax income as smokers are to nicotine. Of course, governments can easily hide behind the self righteous control freaks trying to ban everything from Good N Plenty candy because they look like pills, to e-cigarettes because they look like smoking.
Right now we need a blitz of e-mails to California Governor Schwarzenegger to stop California from banning the sale of e-cigarettes! Yes, we will still be able to buy them from other states, but it will make access to e-cigarettes very difficult for many people here in California. Passage of the bill will also provide a negative perception of e-cigarettes. A perception that is needed to continue passing legislation against e-cigarettes. Please e-mail Governor Schwarzenegger this week. We only have a week left for him to veto the bill, SB 400. Remember As goes California So Goes the Nation.
Governor Schwarzenegger needs to receive a barrage of succinct, personal and to the point e-mails this week. E-cigarettes are truly the only alternative for many smokers, and no one can debate they are not a safer alternative than smoking tobacco cigarettes. We need a message that is powerful and politically hard to fight. I suggest the following message be sent in an e-mail:
Help me to save my life Support Electronic Cigarettes and Veto SB 400!
Some of you may think you will not return to smoking tobacco cigarettes if e-cigarettes are not available. Good for you, but many others will start smoking again and will suffer the dire consequences. We are all in this together, and we all want the same outcome. Our stance has to be a lot stronger than saying we just want a choice! If anyone has a better idea for a message, please post it; otherwise, send an e-mail to Governor Schwarzenegger with the message above. This needs to be sent in the following week, before October 11, 2009. Here is the link to e-mail him: Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger - Interact
Following is my commentary on banning the sale of e-cigarettes in California due to the loss of tobacco tax revenue. Feel free to post it, or send it to others to get the word out about what is happening in California. I will also be sending it to FOX news. Hope the message inspires them to jump on board.
E-Cigarettes in California "A New Budget Crises"
Many smokers in California have reduced or quit smoking tobacco cigarettes due to the introduction of the electronic cigarette, thereby, threatening to drain the State of much needed tobacco tax revenue. California legislators have come up with a solution to this and have voted to ban the sale of electronic cigarettes under the guise of protecting children from tobacco products. The bill, SB 400, amends the Stop Tobacco Access to Kids Enforcement Act (STAKE Act). The amendment provides no new safety measures to protect children from tobacco products, as it is already illegal to sell nicotine products to minors, but serves as a smoke screen to keep electronic cigarettes out of California.
Senator Corbett (D), who drafted the bill, was able to move the bill through the legislative process in stealth mode by introducing the bill as a Green Vehicle Bill. The bill then morphed into a bill to make it a crime to sell electronic cigarette devices. The bill narrowly passed with 16 yes and 14 no votes in the Senate.
The bill bans the sale of electronic cigarettes and classifies the electronic cigarette device as a drug. Legislators are not concerned about the nicotine itself, but rather that the delivery device provides the same tactile sensation to a smoker as smoking a cigarette. This is the real problem. People are quitting or smoking fewer tobacco cigarettes! [FONT="]
[/FONT]The bill now sits on Governor Schwarzenegger's desk. If he does nothing the bill will go into effect in January 2010; However, Governor Schwarzenegger has the power to veto the bill before October 11, 2009.
As is often stated, "Smoking tobacco is the single leading cause of preventable death worldwide, in California our legislators may become the leading cause of preventable tobacco related deaths giving new meaning to the phrase, The only thing that is sure in life is to "Pay Taxes and Die".
Right now we need a blitz of e-mails to California Governor Schwarzenegger to stop California from banning the sale of e-cigarettes! Yes, we will still be able to buy them from other states, but it will make access to e-cigarettes very difficult for many people here in California. Passage of the bill will also provide a negative perception of e-cigarettes. A perception that is needed to continue passing legislation against e-cigarettes. Please e-mail Governor Schwarzenegger this week. We only have a week left for him to veto the bill, SB 400. Remember As goes California So Goes the Nation.
Governor Schwarzenegger needs to receive a barrage of succinct, personal and to the point e-mails this week. E-cigarettes are truly the only alternative for many smokers, and no one can debate they are not a safer alternative than smoking tobacco cigarettes. We need a message that is powerful and politically hard to fight. I suggest the following message be sent in an e-mail:
Help me to save my life Support Electronic Cigarettes and Veto SB 400!
Some of you may think you will not return to smoking tobacco cigarettes if e-cigarettes are not available. Good for you, but many others will start smoking again and will suffer the dire consequences. We are all in this together, and we all want the same outcome. Our stance has to be a lot stronger than saying we just want a choice! If anyone has a better idea for a message, please post it; otherwise, send an e-mail to Governor Schwarzenegger with the message above. This needs to be sent in the following week, before October 11, 2009. Here is the link to e-mail him: Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger - Interact
Following is my commentary on banning the sale of e-cigarettes in California due to the loss of tobacco tax revenue. Feel free to post it, or send it to others to get the word out about what is happening in California. I will also be sending it to FOX news. Hope the message inspires them to jump on board.
E-Cigarettes in California "A New Budget Crises"
Many smokers in California have reduced or quit smoking tobacco cigarettes due to the introduction of the electronic cigarette, thereby, threatening to drain the State of much needed tobacco tax revenue. California legislators have come up with a solution to this and have voted to ban the sale of electronic cigarettes under the guise of protecting children from tobacco products. The bill, SB 400, amends the Stop Tobacco Access to Kids Enforcement Act (STAKE Act). The amendment provides no new safety measures to protect children from tobacco products, as it is already illegal to sell nicotine products to minors, but serves as a smoke screen to keep electronic cigarettes out of California.
Senator Corbett (D), who drafted the bill, was able to move the bill through the legislative process in stealth mode by introducing the bill as a Green Vehicle Bill. The bill then morphed into a bill to make it a crime to sell electronic cigarette devices. The bill narrowly passed with 16 yes and 14 no votes in the Senate.
The bill bans the sale of electronic cigarettes and classifies the electronic cigarette device as a drug. Legislators are not concerned about the nicotine itself, but rather that the delivery device provides the same tactile sensation to a smoker as smoking a cigarette. This is the real problem. People are quitting or smoking fewer tobacco cigarettes! [FONT="]
[/FONT]The bill now sits on Governor Schwarzenegger's desk. If he does nothing the bill will go into effect in January 2010; However, Governor Schwarzenegger has the power to veto the bill before October 11, 2009.
As is often stated, "Smoking tobacco is the single leading cause of preventable death worldwide, in California our legislators may become the leading cause of preventable tobacco related deaths giving new meaning to the phrase, The only thing that is sure in life is to "Pay Taxes and Die".
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