Ahhh, I answered my question. I was looking at the page of actual nicotine, not at the page of concentrated flavors. They have HT on both pages, I was confused 
Nude Nicotine DIY Flavor Guide
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For mango and peach I tried 2, 4, 6, 8 and 10%s. Didn't like any of them. The profile struct me the same just less intense. Left them at the back of cupboard for a week, picked up each row shaking them as I counted to one hundred (juice mixing ritual I have, counting to 100 while shaking) a few times during the week... the result... not very different.
All of them lost flavor... so that was a good thing I guess... but it's not like the citrus part fell off while the mango or peach stayed or developed. What I pick up as cream is still sort of gross tasting to me. I wish that note would have fallen off completely.
The only % that was even remotely vapable to me is the 2% but that's because it's so low I can't really notice anything good or bad about it.
Call me impatient but any juice that takes more than a few days to taste how it should does not satisfy me. I'm all for steeping and it does help some things but I like juices that are good right after being mixed and only get better. Maybe I'm being too cynical but I've never had a flavor that smelled weird and tasted bad right after the mix become as good as a flavor that smelled great and tasted great right after the mix.
Meh, doesn't matter really because I too have given up on NN. I only use 100% DAA free flavors... not "maybe-kinda-sorta-free-but-somehow-15-years-from-now-I-end-up-with-a-lung-disease-and-I-wonder-why" flavors.
All of them lost flavor... so that was a good thing I guess... but it's not like the citrus part fell off while the mango or peach stayed or developed. What I pick up as cream is still sort of gross tasting to me. I wish that note would have fallen off completely.
The only % that was even remotely vapable to me is the 2% but that's because it's so low I can't really notice anything good or bad about it.
Call me impatient but any juice that takes more than a few days to taste how it should does not satisfy me. I'm all for steeping and it does help some things but I like juices that are good right after being mixed and only get better. Maybe I'm being too cynical but I've never had a flavor that smelled weird and tasted bad right after the mix become as good as a flavor that smelled great and tasted great right after the mix.
Meh, doesn't matter really because I too have given up on NN. I only use 100% DAA free flavors... not "maybe-kinda-sorta-free-but-somehow-15-years-from-now-I-end-up-with-a-lung-disease-and-I-wonder-why" flavors.
Yep, we2 too have given up on using the NN flavors - but we haven't completely given up on the quest to help Jake have enough information to start testing/disclosing.
Smelly, we just recently saw your posts on NN thread and have started a response (because we wanted to 'get your back' AND add thoughts of our own), we just haven't had a chance to finish it. We hadn't been checking that thread regularly or we would have seen your posts earlier.
We agree - the "creams" in the flavors are kind of oddly-gross-weird tasting. Perhaps that's the acetoin? (we're been going to compare & contrast with some of the TFA flavors that are 'acetoin only', but haven't had a chance to even mix them).
Yes indeedy, we're so behind on vape projects, mixing, emails/pms & posting that all we can see is our own butts.
Edit - oh yes, I forgot... "call you impatient"? Okay - you're impatient! lol
It always takes at least a week for any VG-based flavor to thoroughly "do it's thing". Agree, "time" isn't going to change a bad flavor to good (or vice versa), but we tested our first few batches of NN flavors nearly every day, and there was substantial changes happening for the first 5-7 days.
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Well PM me if you run into a new PG free flavoring supplier. I'm always on the look-out. I suspect there's someone new around because I think there's been at least 4 (or more) new PG free eliquid companies open within the last 6 months. But I'm guessing they aren't retail. Still - there's obviously interest and demand for 100% VG.
The Russian site for Bakers does list the diketones present in their gourmet line (+ a lot more flavors, some very unusual) and even though those use PG, it's at an extremely low concentrate that I think it's tolerable. 1 drop/10ml can be too much. A couple of flavors I have, I need to pre-dilute to mix. There's several threads on them. I suppliment with other PG concentrates that are mixed at <3% also and so far, it's been tolerated. I do have a known allergy to parabeans (PG related) and carry an EpiPen because it's everywhere.
My goal is to keep flavoring to a minimum, which will keep any diketones to a minimum also (IMO). Once I am able to start decreasing nic levels, about half way (12 - 6%) then I'll pay more attention to the diketone issue - and I don't intend to be stoopid. Obviously custards, tiramisu, cakes, etc are known to have diketones. It's a balancing act managing risk and right now, it's a lot less risk than smoking. More fun too. I'm in a panic mode over what might happen. None of these options would exist and stockpiling is not a solution.
Cap is supposed to have a diketones free custard (not sure if it's out yet). Kudos for doing r&d for vaping, but I've still got a wait and see attitude.
Thanks We2. Cool, as usual.
Aik,
I recently sent info requests to Ecigexpress and Capella directly requesting info on what offerings they have that totally, actually, 100% free of the baddies. From Cap, no response... Ever... From EX, they too have been trying to gather info from Cap.
Bakers are seemingly good people. They need to get rid of the bad stuff for our use but they were very open with me about the flavors I was interested in (mango mix and buckwheat honey - which by the way is the best dang honey IMO - except the caramel color that's in it - and sshhhh, don't tell anyone about that honey being so awesome, k? It's a secret).
Aik,
I recently sent info requests to Ecigexpress and Capella directly requesting info on what offerings they have that totally, actually, 100% free of the baddies. From Cap, no response... Ever... From EX, they too have been trying to gather info from Cap.
Bakers are seemingly good people. They need to get rid of the bad stuff for our use but they were very open with me about the flavors I was interested in (mango mix and buckwheat honey - which by the way is the best dang honey IMO - except the caramel color that's in it - and sshhhh, don't tell anyone about that honey being so awesome, k? It's a secret).
Bakers? wait, what? I must've missed a page somewhere. Where are you getting them?
I agree that they're out there somewhere. There are too many vendors offering PG-free flavors that seemingly aren't available to us.
And as to you not being overly concerned with diketones today…that supports one of the reasons I've become so wary of NN. Many vapers feel as you do which means that answering customers questions should be a non-issue. It likely won't affect their bottom line. And I really feel that if we want to prevent over-regulation (I think regulation is inevitable) the industry as a whole needs to be as transparent as possible. Especially concerning flavoring ingredients. Not being forth rite with information is just fuel for regulation advocates. For a company to so publicly ignore ingredient requests from customers at the very least gives the appearance of hiding known facts. Heck, from what you say even the Russians are more transparent. (although frankly after seeing the results of Dr. F's flavor study I wouldn't believe anything I was told and would want to see a lab report to back up any claim) Now, I must add, I have not personally addressed these concerns with NN, only what I have read on the thread that Jake himself started. He seems to be available to answer other questions in this thread so by all appearances the questionable ingredients inquires are being ignored. Not good for business and not good for the industry.
Bakers are seemingly good people. They need to get rid of the bad stuff for our use but they were very open with me about the flavors I was interested in (mango mix and buckwheat honey - which by the way is the best dang honey IMO - except the caramel color that's in it - and sshhhh said:Thank you for that, smelly. I swear I won't tell a soul.Are there any others on your list? I'm getting desperate for some flavor. I've got some natural extractions in the works but none are ready yet and may take months to tweek so I'd love to add to my tiny list of PG-free.
Some of Baker's flavors are HEAVY diketones, however they publish the amounts and let customers pick and choose. They are Russian, don't speak engish well and don't know much about vaping. Your on your own with them. There are tens of thousands of flavoring and extract companies in the US yet most will not work with the vaping industry. That's why half are sourced overseas. They do met FDA regs, but those regs are for food and don't measure down to the hundreths that vapors are demanding. It was 2 flavoring companies that blew the whistle on themselves that FDA food regs were allowing some to siip through and they began testing themselves. It's a process. (FA and TPA) Diacetyl is naturally occuring at that level too. Acetoin turns into diacetyl when it is heated at a higher temp than our coils. Avoid dry hits. That should be a certain amount of intelligence from the user too - like coffee is hot.
Jake did provide me with a PDF file on acetoin which included heat. It seemed like a good review of the situation and I couldn't find any reason to disagree or find fault with it. It should be linked in the company thread. I think a common courtesy is to not diss a vendor without reaching out to them first.
Also, if you look at some of the original medical reports, it's not a cut and dry issue that diacetyl caused OB. It's probable that it did, but there were a few more details than just a headline. A civil jury (peers) is not medical or scientific proof. I'm willing to accept a probable verdict and let it go. The factory workers were probably exposed to more daily and the droplet size can make a difference too. I'm not a scientist and I'm not going to go there.
I am not sure it's possible to get 100% of diacetyl out of a natural flavor in some of the higher content ones. I think it would be better to go with a synthetic flavor because to my understanding, those are mixed by molecules. "Nautural" "arificial" "synthetic" al tend to blur together with flavorings. It's a highly secretive business by nature. There's 3,000-10,000 new products introduced monthly that are using favors. We are a tiny industry in comparison.
And like I said, if we're carved up to tobacco companies, we couldn't ask these questions anyway.
I think Jake is honest with what he knows and he's a vaper with an interest in what he uses too, with a bit more education than most of us (chemistry). You don't have to like his product however for some of us who NEED PG free flavorings, there's not much choice. NN is more upfront than others.
You do know he is on a weekly show - right? You can call in with your questions if you want to also. I believe the show is linked to from their FB page.
Jake did provide me with a PDF file on acetoin which included heat. It seemed like a good review of the situation and I couldn't find any reason to disagree or find fault with it. It should be linked in the company thread. I think a common courtesy is to not diss a vendor without reaching out to them first.
Also, if you look at some of the original medical reports, it's not a cut and dry issue that diacetyl caused OB. It's probable that it did, but there were a few more details than just a headline. A civil jury (peers) is not medical or scientific proof. I'm willing to accept a probable verdict and let it go. The factory workers were probably exposed to more daily and the droplet size can make a difference too. I'm not a scientist and I'm not going to go there.
I am not sure it's possible to get 100% of diacetyl out of a natural flavor in some of the higher content ones. I think it would be better to go with a synthetic flavor because to my understanding, those are mixed by molecules. "Nautural" "arificial" "synthetic" al tend to blur together with flavorings. It's a highly secretive business by nature. There's 3,000-10,000 new products introduced monthly that are using favors. We are a tiny industry in comparison.
And like I said, if we're carved up to tobacco companies, we couldn't ask these questions anyway.
I think Jake is honest with what he knows and he's a vaper with an interest in what he uses too, with a bit more education than most of us (chemistry). You don't have to like his product however for some of us who NEED PG free flavorings, there's not much choice. NN is more upfront than others.
You do know he is on a weekly show - right? You can call in with your questions if you want to also. I believe the show is linked to from their FB page.
I'm not questioning safety issues. It is up to us individually to do the research and make our personal decisions. I am questioning the lack of response to publicly made inquiries about ingredients. Which just leaves us to wonder….why? Perhaps they're just too busy. But some of these questions were asked weeks ago and with such an important issue they should have at least been acknowledged.
I don't know either. I can say that's unusual. Oh, wait. I think they are in San Diego. OMG. I hope everyone's ok. I know a number of venders were evacuated. It was driving through hell there from comments and vids I've seen.
Very interesting. I've been looking at flavorings from Medicine Flowers. Apparently someone else has also. And with full disclosure!
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...edients-recipes-percentages-alcohol-free.html
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...edients-recipes-percentages-alcohol-free.html
If you have any questions or concerns about what is in NN flavors talk to Jake directly. If you like do it while he is live, on air here.
VapeOn TV - Shows
his show is "Our Show" on Mondays 8:00 PM
Feel free to ask him anything, I feel Jake is very responsive to any comments/questions directed at him. .
VapeOn TV - Shows
his show is "Our Show" on Mondays 8:00 PM
Feel free to ask him anything, I feel Jake is very responsive to any comments/questions directed at him. .
It's strange how perceptions are different. I looked at them and found them obscure. The banana flavoring was an oil / seems many are listed that way.
I haven't had the time to seriously check them out yet. Just sharing a post I came across. I'm curious tho. I've certainly never seen a vendor list recipes and sources before!
Just sent medicine flower an email asking about baddies and if they've had their offerings tested and at what level. Will keep all informed.
I think Jake is a nice guy but he's obviously dodged questions here on ECF. Also I feel like he gives just enough to make you feel like you received an answer.. Then you think about it.. And realize you weren't given what you needed to know.
I think Jake is a nice guy but he's obviously dodged questions here on ECF. Also I feel like he gives just enough to make you feel like you received an answer.. Then you think about it.. And realize you weren't given what you needed to know.
Just to get the wheels back on the track a little.
The tobaccos. I like to cut them in half 50/50 flavor/PG (or VG) and then do 1 drop out of a 30 drop per ml pipette to 10-12ml of base.
The tobaccos. I like to cut them in half 50/50 flavor/PG (or VG) and then do 1 drop out of a 30 drop per ml pipette to 10-12ml of base.
Smelly can you clarify? are you saying you take the 5 ml bottle of tobacco flavor and add it to a 2.5 ml bottle of VG (or PG) first, then take a drop from that into your bottle 10 ml nic base ?
Sure thing:
In empty bottle add 2 ml of tobacco flavor and then add 2 ml of VG or PG or Ethanol or water or any blend you prefer. I like to heat it at this point cause I use VG and need it more fluid. After warm and fluid, count slowly and rhythmically to 100 while you shake the bottle back and forth in time. That's my ritual anyway.
I like to let it sit for at least a few days shaking once (count to 100) every day to make sure the flavor is well dispersed and evenly diluted.
Fill glass dropper bottle with 10-12ml of 6-12mg VG.
Apply one drop of the 50/50 tobacco blend you created.
Its fun to then add other flavors to this tobacco juice you have created.
In empty bottle add 2 ml of tobacco flavor and then add 2 ml of VG or PG or Ethanol or water or any blend you prefer. I like to heat it at this point cause I use VG and need it more fluid. After warm and fluid, count slowly and rhythmically to 100 while you shake the bottle back and forth in time. That's my ritual anyway.
I like to let it sit for at least a few days shaking once (count to 100) every day to make sure the flavor is well dispersed and evenly diluted.
Fill glass dropper bottle with 10-12ml of 6-12mg VG.
Apply one drop of the 50/50 tobacco blend you created.
Its fun to then add other flavors to this tobacco juice you have created.
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