NY Judge rules vaping is not smoking

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NoFumus

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MacTechVpr

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Great post! Thanks @NoFumus. You even picked up the same Justia link I had. Just don't understand why it took so long to hit the funny papers. This goes back to Feb 5. By coincidence I only found out about it today from a friend who isn't all that involved in the vape scene by way of this article...New York Court Rules that Vaping Is Not Smoking - ChurnMag.

This pick up by the great Eugene Volokh on the Washington Post may have had a bit to do with the broader dissemination of the story...Vaping isn’t smoking, for purposes of N.Y. state ban on smoking in many public places - The Washington Post. It's a good thing when we start to see a legal interest by the likes of the WP on their Volokh Conspiracy legal portal and their FB page. Anything beyond vape industry advocacy is a plus for us as vapers. It moves beyond our limited and specialized interest to the personal and civil rights arena from a public perspective.

"Smoking" means the burning of a lighted cigar, cigarette, pipe or any other matter or substance which contains tobacco." So sayeth the Judge.

Vaping is not combustion. And smoking requires a combustable substance which tobacco certainly is; however, e-liquid is certainly not used that way, or intended to be.

And to those who would muddy our laws and reason…expect more of this!

Thanks again and good luck! :)
 
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MacTechVpr

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And if you're treated like a criminal.... etc.

Well, that's where we're trying to avoid going. But if you give some quarter, they will certainly take it. Then the rest will follow. Some would call it democracy. Soon it becomes the new normal. Finally, it has always been so.

Good luck. :)
 

Kent C

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Well, that's where we're trying to avoid going. But if you give some quarter, they will certainly take it. Then the rest will follow. Some would call it democracy. Soon it becomes the new normal. Finally, it has always been so.

Good luck. :)

The "if you're treated like a criminal, you behave like a criminal" idea was evident in Prohibition, but there are other circumstances more recently where that can be applied, ask anyone in the inner cities. And it's what we will see if the deeming goes as written.

Smuggling, in 1700 England, the colonies in American and other countries where tariffs and taxes stopped the flow of goods to citizens, middle and lower classes - ie anyone not 'connected' to Royalty, was a 'necessary evil'. Smugglers were heroes of the peasant class, who would have starved without them, and hunted by authorities constantly.
 

Kent C

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What can I say…anarchy works, sooner or later. <shrug>

Good luck. :)

The Spectre of Anarchy has been used to scare people into big gov't since Sir Robert Filmer raised it in "Patriarcha", published posthumously in 1680. John Locke's "Two Treatises of Government" featuring 'natural rights' (known well by not only our founders but much of the population at the time), was a direct response to Filmer. Algernon Sidney's "Discourses Concerning Government" again, known by the founders and others, was a similar rebuttal of Filmer.

It's (the spectre of anarchy) still used today, for the same purposes :- )
 
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MacTechVpr

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Someone in a farm country grade school a century ago might have known what you're talking about. Doubt you'd find many of these in typical high school libraries today. Or the handfuls of their students who know what positive law and rights are. But nine out of ten knew how to run a business in our agrarian society then. Now consortium owns their property and rents it back to them empowered and abetted by law and regulation. And we dare call ourselves a republic or claim that we have no kings. Historical obsolescence is reflective of the society in which it resides.

Good luck. :)

p.s. In the spirit of full disclosure, I've known of but not read Filmer or Sidney, but Locke in my youth when as an immigrant wished to know everything about America's history.
 
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sofarsogood

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Vaping isn’t smoking, for purposes of N.Y. state ban on smoking in many public places

"New York bans smoking in many public places — but does that cover “vaping,” which is to say use of “e-cigarettes” that produce nicotine-infused vapor? No, said a New York trial court earlier this month, in People v. Thomas, which involved vaping on a subway platform."
Google news didn't catch this one. Where does it go from here? Does it mean vaping in public places is legal in NY or NYC until a new law or ordinance is enacted?
 

NoFumus

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Google news didn't catch this one. Where does it go from here? Does it mean vaping in public places is legal in NY or NYC until a new law or ordinance is enacted?

I think so, but a NYer would probably be more aware.

"Indeed, on June 18, 2015, ten days after the occurrence alleged in this case, the New York State Assembly approved Bill A05955, a bill to amend PHL § 1399-o to “[m]ake[] the restrictions relating to smoking in public areas applicable to electronic cigarettes.” That bill died in the state Senate, however, and was returned to the Assembly on January 6, 2016."
 

Kent C

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Someone in a farm country grade school a century ago might have known what you're talking about. Doubt you'd find many of these in typical high school libraries today. Or the handfuls of their students who know what positive law and rights are. But nine out of ten knew how to run a business in our agrarian society then. Now consortium owns their property and rents it back to them empowered and abetted by law and regulation. And we dare call ourselves a republic or claim that we have no kings. Historical obsolescence is reflective of the society in which it resides.

Good luck. :)

p.s. In the spirit of full disclosure, I've known of but not read Filmer or Sidney, but Locke in my youth when as an immigrant wished to know everything about America's history.

It (revolutionary history) has been a passion of mine for most of my life. Still is. Not only is Locke and Sidney no part of school curriculum, but the Declaration, Constitution and Bill of Rights are relegated to the appendix in most high school texts if they contain them at all. US history now is the 'plight of the (name any minority)' while leaving out the documents and ideas and political science that were to ensure their rights. (time frame exceptions noted - but the philosophy ultimately includes all).

The significance of this all - minus it's actual history - is still an active matter - which is why I 'fill in' for those who may be interested in 'how we got here' or how we got to this point where rights are taken away. It helps sometimes in clarity. Those not interested should really put me on ignore :laugh: or just stop reading my posts. (there are some, I know :lol: )
 
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NoFumus

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It's (revolutionary history) has been a passion of mine for most of my life. Still is. Not only is Locke and Sidney no part of school curriculum, but the Declaration, Constitution and Bill of Rights are relegated to the appendix in most high school texts if they contain them at all. US history now is the 'plight of the (name any minority)' while leaving out the documents and ideas and political science that were to ensure their rights. (time frame exceptions noted - but the philosophy ultimately includes all).

The significance of this all - minus it's actual history - is still an active matter - which is why I 'fill in' for those who may be interested in 'how we got here' or how we got to this point where rights are taken away. It helps sometimes in clarity. Those not interested should really put me on ignore :laugh: or just stop reading my posts. (there are some, I know :lol:

Not to argue your point, but if it makes you feel any better, I have a high school sophomore taking US history, and one month of study was given to the Constitution, including Locke, Rousseau, Hobbes, & Montesquieu.
 

Kent C

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Not to argue your point, but if it makes you feel any better, I have a high school sophomore taking US history, and one month of study was given to the Constitution, including Locke, Rousseau, Hobbes, & Montesquieu.

I'm surprised and impressed. Esp. for Minnesota ;- ) I'd like to know more - public school or private and if public, is there more emphasis on Rousseau and Hobbes than Locke and Montesquieu... :)

From Ohio the 'DofI, Constitution, B of Rights' part of the appendix was from my niece's and nephew's sophomore text in a public school. As was the 'plight' phrasing. I'm sure there are regional differences. Thanks for posting - it gives me some hope. lol. I'd like to see all HS curricula like the US History courses of Hillsdale College in Michigan.
 

zoiDman

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Google news didn't catch this one. Where does it go from here? Does it mean vaping in public places is legal in NY or NYC until a new law or ordinance is enacted?

I'm sure what Laws NYC has that Specifically make Statuary Mention of e-Cigarettes Use on public places?

But here is the Judges Opinion in this case of People v Thomas.


Count 3: PUBLIC HEALTH LAW SMOKING RESTRICTIONS


The complaint states that defendant was observed "smoking an electronic vapor cigarette" on the "northbound platform of the Nevins Street subway station on the 2/3 line . . . which is not a designated smoking area."

For this conduct, defendant is charged in the third count of the information under "PHL 1399 (l)." In fact, there is no such provision.[FN4] Article 13-E of the New York State Public Health Law (§ 1399-n et seq.) addresses the Regulation of Smoking in Public and Work Places. Both the title of the charged offense ("Smoking Restrictions") and the facts relied on in the information before this Court make it plain that defendant is charged with a violation of Public Health Law § 1399-o (1), and the omission of the "-o" is an error that could, theoretically, be cured by amendment (People v Norman, 1 Misc 3d 127[A], 2003 NY Slip Op 51537 [App Term, 2d Dept, 9th and 10th Jud Dists, 2003]). Correction of the statute number would not salvage this accusatory instrument, however.

Public Health Law § 1399-o (1) (e) provides that:

Smoking shall not be permitted and no person shall smoke in the following indoor areas: . . . public means of mass transportation, including subways, underground subway [*6]stations . . .


Essential to this provision is the term "smoking," which is defined in PHL § 1399-n (8):

"Smoking" means the burning of a lighted cigar, cigarette, pipe or any other matter or substance which contains tobacco.

An electronic cigarette neither burns nor contains tobacco. Instead, the use of such a device, which is commonly referred to as "vaping," involves "the inhalation of vapourized e-cigarette liquid consisting of water, nicotine, a base of propylene glycol or vegetable glycerin and occasionally, flavouring."[FN5] This does not fit within the definition of "smoking" under PHL § 1399-o.

The People contend that no specific prohibition on electronic cigarettes is necessary because "the courts of New York have yet to make a determination as to whether electronic cigarettes are to be viewed any differently under these sections than tobacco cigarettes" (P's Opposition p. 6). But this is precisely backward. There are no "common law" crimes in New York; this court has jurisdiction only over actions brought pursuant to statutory prohibitions, and only where the accusatory instrument makes out every element of the offense as it is defined by statute (see Penal Law § 1.05 [3]; CPL 170.35 [1] [a], ). Moreover, it is well established that "laws which create crime ought to be so explicit that all men subject to their penalties may know what acts it is their duty to avoid" (People v Grogan, 260 NY 138, 145 [1932] [citations omitted]).

The legislative body of New York City has taken measures to address this issue. Since April 29, 2014, it has been illegal under New York City's Smoke Free Air Act to use electronic cigarettes in certain public places.[FN6] The New York State legislature is also well aware that the Public Health Law does not currently prohibit the use of electronic cigarettes. Indeed, on June 18, 2015, ten days after the occurrence alleged in this case, the New York State Assembly approved Bill A05955, a bill to amend PHL § 1399-o to "[m]ake[] the restrictions relating to smoking in public areas applicable to electronic cigarettes." That bill died in the state Senate, however, and was returned to the Assembly on January 6, 2016.[FN7]



The charge of violation of smoking restrictions under the New York State Public Health Law is facially insufficient."


People v Thomas

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So what the Judge basically said was that the Court did not have Jurisdiction over the Defendant in Count #3 because there was no Statutory Prohibition that had been Violated. ie: No Law or Code was Violated.
 

Steamix

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At least , and at last, some common sense prevailing.

OTOH it's sad that it needs a court to 'rule' the obvious.

'Eyes wide shut' - to quote a movie title - on our elected and unelected officials.
Funny that. Exhibiting that same kind of denial of the obvious while in a clinic gets you an extra helping of psychoactive pills...

Aren't there any laws and procedures in place for removing officials who obviously lost their marbles ?
 
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