so do you like the caffeine ? Does it make the juice taste any different? I was going to order some but wasn't sure how safe it is. I'd really like to learn more about the DYI side for many reasons but as always my health is the most important.
other additives......b-12, gingo, etc
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so do you like the caffeine ? Does it make the juice taste any different? I was going to order some but wasn't sure how safe it is. I'd really like to learn more about the DYI side for many reasons but as always my health is the most important.
I just made up a sample of underberg and nic so far no side effects taste is good
this is a flavoring but made with herbs and roots, so far so good no side effects and taste pretty good too
I did some digging as a result of this post and best I can guess, but I can't test this independently (yet), if you're using VG as the base or most of the base and ~holding~ the vapor in your mouth before full inhale then B-12 will get partially absorbed without being bound to a special carrier. And it's also likely to survive mostly intact any OK length of steeping. I also found a little on ECGC in Green Tea potentially being carried and delivered the same way but the wildly different concentrations of that in most Green Tea extracts are an issue.
This is setting aside the FDA/attention issues.... just trying to see what I could dig up. -Magnus
This is setting aside the FDA/attention issues.... just trying to see what I could dig up. -Magnus
so what if you steep in PG or distilled water? I saw somewhere that you could do that and it will carry everything over in the water. I did this with coffee and tabacco but was afraid to vape as wasn't sure.
Carry through vapor and provide it to the membranes in your mouth, nasal pathways, or lungs in a way it actually gets absorbed usefully..... that's the difference. You can vape, bathe in, drink, and give yourself an enema of green tea. Literally I've seen all those options. How and if your body can actually get the "good stuff" with each of those methods varies wildly and by specific forms.
So my answer still remains 'I doubt it'.. -Magnus
So my answer still remains 'I doubt it'.. -Magnus
so it would be safe to vape as a flavoring then without getting the nic from the tabacco or anything else. I only vape flavorings made out of the pg or vg have tried the teaberry someone sent me in a PIF but am wanting to be able to make as much of my own stuff as I can incase I can't get it down the road. Thanks for all your help
I think nobody can accurately comment as to the safety and efficacy properly yet. But in terms of relative risk versus the alternatives all early evidence says "Yes"... so have at it. -Magnus
The chemicals in the flavorings should be the primary concern if anyone is really getting on the healthy kick. As time passes, and juices finally get some lab testing done: it is the flavoring that will cause the outcry, just like it has in the past. Caffeine is the least of my concerns when I'm mixing. Been about 3 months now, and its 3% is my allday Mix. Gotta be careful to swap out bottles when you get home though, real pain the in ... to get to sleep while your vaping caffeine and reading, lol.
I haven't added any b-12 to my DIY yet, as I already do the injections (weekly) and sublingual daily.
For instructions, that sample I sent you will go a LONG way. Here are the details of how to use taken from directly from Flavor West's website.
Now, i've spoken with Jason, the owner of Flavor West & he deals with companies that deal with "liquid vitamins", the type that go in energy drinks, etc. This is how Vapor Renew can do the "Renew Blend". The companies he deals with only sell wholesale.
Also, vitamins do NOT have to be bound by food to be absorbed. There are fat soluable and water soluable vitamins, so it depends on what vitamin you are taking.
As it's been stated in this thread before, it's all how a vitamin, herb will break down (or not) when heated, on whether or not to vape it.
Also, i'm with Stownz on this.........it's great as an all day vape...........but i'm sure to change out my juice around 4pm so that i'll be able to sleep that night. I also switch from regular tea to decaf around that time. I'm in total agreement, it's the "flavors" that scare me too. Sure, they may be fine for baking, etc but to vape something with yellow #5, or red #40 in it is scary! This is why I won't touch watermelon juice, no matter how good it is. I've been using Capellas for at least 5 years in smoothies & oatmeal............then I start reading in the DIY section & Capellas name comes up..........i'm like, "Whoa, i've got like 20 flavors right in my pantry".
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Of course they don't and sure they're water soluble... but absorption is also dependent on the pathway too. We're talking about ~inhaling~ here. And, as you also said, if it makes it past the heat.
As an actual example Nissan was offering Vitamin C in their new Leaf electric car AC system. This was demonstrated to be a really bad idea. It was a nasal and respiratory irritant and there was no appreciable absorption plus some thought it could cause lung tissue hardening over time. And it was further demonstrated the massive heat exposure didn't alter the C before it got to the sonic unit that distributed it in the air. So this case we have something that makes it past the heat fine, doesn't absorb via inhalation to any appreciable amount, and causes side-effects that were undesirable.
EDIT: Again though, I noted I didn't find anything indicating caffeine or B-12 were going to cause issues. Or ECGC from Green Tea... the rest start making me nervous.
And I wasn't addressing flavorings at all, I can't speak to those in the least.. just the vitamins and herbals is what I did PubMed searches for.
I know how I'll end up destroying my lungs though... these bloody Yankee Candle my wife burns like we have no electricity. ;-)
Cheers, -Magnus
BMWJEN, I'm curious... how would you describe the taste overall? Is it really complex too? -Magnus
B-12 has a melting point of ~300 degrees C; so at vaping temps, I believe that if you are getting any B-12, it would have to be from the solubility in PG/VG. And that it would be carried in the vapor. I didn't find much in the way of B-12 solubility in PG/VG with the quick Google search that I did.
PubMed searches yielded VG as a carrier in a number of studies even when B-12 or Caffeine was being used as a placebo. So we're good there I think.
If you use Google Scholar specifically it'll pull up things that they don't include in the Google mainline search for, I guess, readability reasons.
I'll be interested to try something like this myself sometime in the near future.. just Caffeine though. -Magnus
If you use Google Scholar specifically it'll pull up things that they don't include in the Google mainline search for, I guess, readability reasons.
I'll be interested to try something like this myself sometime in the near future.. just Caffeine though. -Magnus
Mangus, I can send you some of FW's liquid E-Caffeine. Afterall, i've got a 4oz bottle, lol. Taste? there is no taste. I first came across e-caffeine when I ordered 30mls of juice from Vapor Renew. Jason (the owner) & I got to talking, so I ordered the 4oz bottle from his FW site. This way I can add caffeine to not only any vendor's juice, as well as my own DIY.
I was actually having a conversation regarding "flavoring" with someone tonight. Sure, it's food safe, & digestion begins in the mouth. IS flavoring actually safe to be vaped though? Hardening of the lung tissues would be one of the biggest side effects I can think of. Once your lung tissue starts to harden, there goes your capacity, drive & TV, not to mention acid/base imbalances that will ultimately affect more than just your lungs.
Flavorings are used in baking, so they are heated. Then we take them in via the digestive system. This proves fine, (except for those with specific allergies.) During vaping, we heat the flavors that are indeed "food safe", but instead we take them in via inhalation. As far as I know PA is the only company that has paid to do any type of testing & I believe that this was actually testing for diactyl, or diactyl components.
Even though I vape, I'm skeptical about what the flavorings are actually doing to my lungs. I sit & think, "Well, I smoked for 20 years........whatever is in that flavoring can't be any worse than what was in my cigarettes". What if it is though? No long term studies have actually been done regarding the inhalation of "food safe strawberry flavor concentrate" after 20 years of use.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that while reading through the forums, I see it over and over again, "It's food safe". So these people automatically assume that it's "vape safe". The digestive system & the respiratory system work in 2 totally different ways. "Food safe" is great if it's absorbed through the GI tract, but is "food safe", really that safe when inhaled through the respiratory system?
**For YEARS, people just couldn't understand me........I was a perfect picture of health, except for the fact that I smoked, & everyone wondered why I didn't "just quit". I'm on the front line in the medical field daily, I sideline as a personal trainer, zumba instructor & sports nutritionist, I'm vegetarian, I grow my own organic fruits & vegetables, home birth, breastfed, & don't vaccinate my children** I vape, & i'm going to continue to, then while i'm at it, hell, i may as well vape my caffeine, lol............ but how safe is "food safe" when it's vaped? I'm asking because I don't know the answer, and I don't know how long it will take to actually find an answer.
I was actually having a conversation regarding "flavoring" with someone tonight. Sure, it's food safe, & digestion begins in the mouth. IS flavoring actually safe to be vaped though? Hardening of the lung tissues would be one of the biggest side effects I can think of. Once your lung tissue starts to harden, there goes your capacity, drive & TV, not to mention acid/base imbalances that will ultimately affect more than just your lungs.
Flavorings are used in baking, so they are heated. Then we take them in via the digestive system. This proves fine, (except for those with specific allergies.) During vaping, we heat the flavors that are indeed "food safe", but instead we take them in via inhalation. As far as I know PA is the only company that has paid to do any type of testing & I believe that this was actually testing for diactyl, or diactyl components.
Even though I vape, I'm skeptical about what the flavorings are actually doing to my lungs. I sit & think, "Well, I smoked for 20 years........whatever is in that flavoring can't be any worse than what was in my cigarettes". What if it is though? No long term studies have actually been done regarding the inhalation of "food safe strawberry flavor concentrate" after 20 years of use.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that while reading through the forums, I see it over and over again, "It's food safe". So these people automatically assume that it's "vape safe". The digestive system & the respiratory system work in 2 totally different ways. "Food safe" is great if it's absorbed through the GI tract, but is "food safe", really that safe when inhaled through the respiratory system?
**For YEARS, people just couldn't understand me........I was a perfect picture of health, except for the fact that I smoked, & everyone wondered why I didn't "just quit". I'm on the front line in the medical field daily, I sideline as a personal trainer, zumba instructor & sports nutritionist, I'm vegetarian, I grow my own organic fruits & vegetables, home birth, breastfed, & don't vaccinate my children** I vape, & i'm going to continue to, then while i'm at it, hell, i may as well vape my caffeine, lol............ but how safe is "food safe" when it's vaped? I'm asking because I don't know the answer, and I don't know how long it will take to actually find an answer.
EXCELLENT POST!!
Thank you for the offer but the last thing I need is more caffeine. ;-)
*cough* MaGNus *cough* I've really got to change my name that happens so often.
This is the $$ question.. and I don't know the answer. I will tell you what I did to try to figure it out though and it brought ~some~ peace of mind for me. (This is completely outside the known Diacetyl issue and vendors like Flavor Art.)
- We've got the well known Popcorn factory cases, right? So I first looked for industries that might use similar manufacturing and environmental control methods. I identified two I was the most interested in: 1) Artists paint supplies and 2) Grocery and bakery outfits.
- My wife is an artists and had good connections for me to do some digging. The vendor whom spoke to me candidly said they already have particulate concerns so they filter the air like all mad. Then when I looked at particle sizes and weight I determined that the food flavorings they were using (for a special line of paints) weren't being filtered. So did they have any problems over the past ~fifteen years? Short answer, No..
- Bakeries. Especially the large ones.... do they have reports of "Baker's Lung" that is ~not~ attributed to flour causes? So far, no.. at least not statistically significant because the few that said it was indeterminate weren't of employees who had longterm exposure anyway.
- The other areas I did some digging was in toddler makeup kits. I found little data there though.
- Now here was the big one that made me breath just a touch easier.... Liberty Flights is so kind as to include a very specific ingredient list. I did searches on all of it. The one common ingredient that there was the most data on was Malic Acid. And indeed there were papers on the inhalation of it... but nothing alarming versus exposure levels we get elsewhere. AND Malic Acid is also in cigarettes albeit it I couldn't compare quantities. So then I started searching for each of the LF listed ingredients in Cigarettes and the biggest overlap besides the obvious nicotine was Malic Acid. So I figure we're still do much better than before.
I've said in many threads it's about collective risk reduction. I think it would be bizarre to even attempt to demonstrate vaping is more dangerous than smoking even if we found out the food ingredients were less safe than defacto assumption. And I think for most people there are so many other higher risks they take that they'd rather cut out. In your case, you might have little else to cut out though..
So I don't know the answer either but I'm already fairly confident that in terms of overall lifestyle risk vaping without blatantly adding more acids or potential agents that could carry e.coli or some yeasts is going to be rules fairly safe. With the exception being certain known nicotine effects that some people still dispute (like insulin response).
If I hear even the slightest anything come across the wire I'll be posting it hear along with everybody else who keeps a watchful eye. And your post was just great out loud thought. Thanks for sharing, -Magnus
Thank you for the offer but the last thing I need is more caffeine. ;-)
*cough* MaGNus *cough* I've really got to change my name that happens so often.
This is the $$ question.. and I don't know the answer. I will tell you what I did to try to figure it out though and it brought ~some~ peace of mind for me. (This is completely outside the known Diacetyl issue and vendors like Flavor Art.)
- We've got the well known Popcorn factory cases, right? So I first looked for industries that might use similar manufacturing and environmental control methods. I identified two I was the most interested in: 1) Artists paint supplies and 2) Grocery and bakery outfits.
- My wife is an artists and had good connections for me to do some digging. The vendor whom spoke to me candidly said they already have particulate concerns so they filter the air like all mad. Then when I looked at particle sizes and weight I determined that the food flavorings they were using (for a special line of paints) weren't being filtered. So did they have any problems over the past ~fifteen years? Short answer, No..
- Bakeries. Especially the large ones.... do they have reports of "Baker's Lung" that is ~not~ attributed to flour causes? So far, no.. at least not statistically significant because the few that said it was indeterminate weren't of employees who had longterm exposure anyway.
- The other areas I did some digging was in toddler makeup kits. I found little data there though.
- Now here was the big one that made me breath just a touch easier.... Liberty Flights is so kind as to include a very specific ingredient list. I did searches on all of it. The one common ingredient that there was the most data on was Malic Acid. And indeed there were papers on the inhalation of it... but nothing alarming versus exposure levels we get elsewhere. AND Malic Acid is also in cigarettes albeit it I couldn't compare quantities. So then I started searching for each of the LF listed ingredients in Cigarettes and the biggest overlap besides the obvious nicotine was Malic Acid. So I figure we're still do much better than before.
I've said in many threads it's about collective risk reduction. I think it would be bizarre to even attempt to demonstrate vaping is more dangerous than smoking even if we found out the food ingredients were less safe than defacto assumption. And I think for most people there are so many other higher risks they take that they'd rather cut out. In your case, you might have little else to cut out though..
So I don't know the answer either but I'm already fairly confident that in terms of overall lifestyle risk vaping without blatantly adding more acids or potential agents that could carry e.coli or some yeasts is going to be rules fairly safe. With the exception being certain known nicotine effects that some people still dispute (like insulin response).
If I hear even the slightest anything come across the wire I'll be posting it hear along with everybody else who keeps a watchful eye. And your post was just great out loud thought. Thanks for sharing, -Magnus
Magnus,
Yes, i've often been known to think out loud on ECF. So far I haven't been banned. YAY!!!!!
Thanks for posting, I honestly appreciate it.
Yes, i've often been known to think out loud on ECF. So far I haven't been banned. YAY!!!!!
Thanks for posting, I honestly appreciate it.
Revisiting this issue briefly.... think about B12 and the most common (if mistaken) form, cyanocobalamin, ..
"I have studied the Vitamin B12 issue thoroughly, and have learned that biochemists, neutraceutical scientists, and many writers mistakenly use the term Vitamin B12 for cyanocobalamin, THAT IS NOT USABLE BY THE BODY BUT which is in all vitamin B12 supplements. When speaking of Vitamin B12 they are referring to the semisynthetic Vitamin B12 (cyanocobalamin) that initially was contaminated with poisonous cyanide during its chemical extraction from animal tissues. Carbon columns are used during the extraction process and the carbon combines with nitrogen from the medium forming the poisonous cyanocobalamin, that scientists insist on calling Vitamin B12."
Rethinking & Clarifying the Vitamin B12 Issue, by Dr. Virginia Vetrano
This is one of many sources that talks about how oral consumption of this is handled fairly well and "safely" by the body..... however, the potassium connection and creation of a fumigant? This about that for a second..... what if between flavoring, or if people start adding electrolytes, you accidentally gas yourself because you added B12?
Look at what I wrote about... it seemed like it might not likely be a problem but a bit of follow-up and this HUGE caveat/problem pops right up. -Magnus
"I have studied the Vitamin B12 issue thoroughly, and have learned that biochemists, neutraceutical scientists, and many writers mistakenly use the term Vitamin B12 for cyanocobalamin, THAT IS NOT USABLE BY THE BODY BUT which is in all vitamin B12 supplements. When speaking of Vitamin B12 they are referring to the semisynthetic Vitamin B12 (cyanocobalamin) that initially was contaminated with poisonous cyanide during its chemical extraction from animal tissues. Carbon columns are used during the extraction process and the carbon combines with nitrogen from the medium forming the poisonous cyanocobalamin, that scientists insist on calling Vitamin B12."
Rethinking & Clarifying the Vitamin B12 Issue, by Dr. Virginia Vetrano
This is one of many sources that talks about how oral consumption of this is handled fairly well and "safely" by the body..... however, the potassium connection and creation of a fumigant? This about that for a second..... what if between flavoring, or if people start adding electrolytes, you accidentally gas yourself because you added B12?
Look at what I wrote about... it seemed like it might not likely be a problem but a bit of follow-up and this HUGE caveat/problem pops right up. -Magnus
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