FDA Post-hearing reactions?

[Jman8]

Providing my reactions before reading any comments on this thread.

I did skip parts of the video as I could scroll the video to see who was speaking, plus realize opening statements are not likely pertinent to key issues on deeming regulations. After Sen. Burr was gone from the hearing, my interest went way down as I could tell it would be a rather one-sided discussion. I would say I heard about 70% of all that was said.

Clearly FDA, at urging of some members of Congress, will go after flavors. IMO, this is predictable, and is already known to us. I honestly knew this in 2012, about 2 months after I started vaping. I predicted then, and right now, that they will succeed, temporarily. How long 'temporarily' is, I'm not sure, but I would say less than 5 years, and more than 6 months. I think they will fail because of what on the surface looks like lack of understanding on how flavors actually work in vaping community; but moreover, because reality is flavors will still be widely used even if harshly banned. And after some time of realizing this isn't working and is criminalizing people for liking "cotton candy" (for example), the public will shift opinion and restrictions will be eased up.

I think Harkin mentioned "kids" or "children" about 2 million times in 1.5 hours, and I'm around 99% sure that was intended. I now, more than ever, want to use this public domain video with Harkin's remarks to make a video that shows his comments and then shows umpteen dozen clips of adults who truly enjoy vaping gummy bear flavors, cotton candy, bubble gum and 10,000 similar flavors and who have quit/reduced smoking because of use of those flavors, all in the hopes of exploiting his hypocrisy / lack of intelligence on this matter.

For me, flavors is the biggest issue of them all, and Harkin needs to be exploited as 'town idiot' for daring to emphasize the preposterous claims he chose to speak to in this hearing and in other pieces he's put forth.

Burr was clearly the hero of the hearing and was wonderful watching him probe Zeller to try and get him to admit that eCigs are less harmful than combustible tobacco. Burr's comments about fighting for rights of adults to make choices was comforting, and tells me there is a fight in congress to be had with regards to regulation of eCigs. It's possible that fight has me change my opinion/prediction that flavors will be restricted at some point.

Rest of what was said did very little for me. CDC guy and Alexander didn't say anything that had me sit up and take notice.

Perhaps incidental, but I did take notice that most of the committee wasn't present, and those who were there at the start didn't make it to the end, but am very glad Burr was there. I noticed no minorities present on panel or on committee, and no women given a microphone. I also know that if I were present in that room, I would've stealth vaped, gotten away with it, and bragged about it on ECF. Then I'd have about 30 ECF members scolding me and saying ridiculous things like, "see, this is why they're banning them!"

 

[stevegmu]

It is a Shame when the R vs D things gets Applied. And I wish there were some Proponents and Detractors on BOTH sides of this one.

But it does seem like One Party seems to be Spearheading a Squash e-Cigarettes ASAP Campaign. And the Other Party Seems to be More for seeing what the Studies/Science says.

Nanny state v. let them have their vape...

 

[2coils]

JMAN SAID THIS:Burr was clearly the hero of the hearing and was wonderful watching him probe Zeller to try and get him to admit that eCigs are less harmful than combustible tobacco. Burr's comments about fighting for rights of adults to make choices was comforting, and tells me there is a fight in congress to be had with regards to regulation of eCigs. It's possible that fight has be change my opinion/prediction that flavors will be restricted at some point.

I believe we have an ally here!! WE have to capitalize on this. I will go as far to say, he put Zeller on notice in regard to "wanting to see the science"

That signified to me he was not interested in any AGENDA. I interpreted that remark as you better back your nonsense up with facts or you will be challenged! He takes The Liberty of Americans seriously! IMHO Burr made his presence and opinion felt!

 

[Jman8]

I just switched parties.

This occurred to me as well while watching it. Sorry if this suddenly makes this thread political, but we are talking about a political hearing.

I kinda hope for sake of dems on this forum and in the vaping community that at least one dem in congress sides with vaping industry as I just think the party could lose a whole bunch of people on this issue, and the way they spin it.

Burr (R) expressed comments of public health concerns, and addressed the youth use issue, with reason. If dems did that, they'd likely maintain some allegiance from their party's followers. But if they keep peddling the erroneous claims and hyped up dangers, I'm thinking this will be an issue where it'll look like everyone that vapes must be a Republican. I'm yet to be meet a politically aware vaper that goes along with what Harkin was putting forth as 'facts of the situation regarding eCigs.'

 

[Kent C]

http://www.help.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/Zeller.pdf

http://www.help.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/McAfee.pdf

http://www.help.senate.gov/newsroom...b9aa-8893-4434-8335-cf031379c999&groups=Chair

 

[Jman8]

The timeline for filing an appeal has long passed.....they had that option. I do wonder, however, as the Judge directed the FDA to regulate e-cigs as a tobacco product - and they haven't until 4 years later - can they somehow be precluded now?

Furthermore, as the e-gig market was well underway when Congress issued the Tobacco Control Act, could this omission, in fact, exclude e-cigs from regulations altogether given the Sottera decision?

Good questions.

I would think no as Leon essentially said you can't regulate these as drug delivery devices because they are "adult recreational tobacco products." Not a direct quote, but pretty close I think. At same time, I don't think this avenue is entirely shut down. eCigs simply weren't part of the framework and are unlike most other (if not all other) products in the tobacco category. Burr was getting this point across fairly well that FDA/regulations ought not to disrupt innovation when innovation has prime opportunity to meet original goal of harm reduction and to, as Legacy guy said, make the traditional cigarette obsolete. Congress owes it to itself and to American people to determine, out loud, if eCigs are what they meant to be under full authority of FDA when they passed TCA.

I also think it is very helpful to realize how much the courts (from 2009) have hindered FDA's ability to harshly regulate eCigs and the way in which dems currently are or likely will try to spin this debate. Zeller was making it abundantly clear, to Harkin, that FDA can no longer go down that avenue. And as I was just reviewing that 2009 ECF thread yesterday, I'm under impression that appeal process has run its course. That avenue is dead.

It is still interesting to me how that decision back in 2009/10 was huge deal to vapers then, like really huge victory. But vapers of today see that as death knell because product is being regulated as tobacco item. It really makes things challenging, I think, for FDA and ANTZ going forward. Approve anything and it will look like those tobacco products are FDA approved (endorsed). Ban anything and FDA is contributing to creation of a black market. Judge Leon managed to assert judicial authority over FDA and tell them this is an approved drug and your only avenue is to regulate it as tobacco product.

Your comment made me think that if eCig products in 2009 were selling any flavors that might be perceived as 'targeted toward children' and Leon is saying these are 'adult recreational products,' then that does make things tougher for FDA going forward, as it shows legal authority understood these products are intended for adults. At same time, 2009 is almost forgotten history and probably 99.9% of non-vapers are unaware of that history and it would seem that many many vapers are as well, so whatever I'm getting at in this paragraph stands great chance of being ignored. Clearly dems/ANTZ are going after flavors under preposterous claim that the only possible human that could like a sweet flavor is a person under 18 years old, and that is the only reason why eCig vendors keep those flavors in stock.

As much as it will undeniably suck when flavors are on the chopping block, I look forward to getting that behind us. In my world view, there is absolutely zero chance of regulating flavors out of existence. I concede they'll possibly be out of legal existence, for a little while, but it kind humors me that I may one day be going to underground dealer to get gummy bear eLiquid flavor. As if that'll be challenging to find on the black market. "hey, Jman, you can either have this deadly assault weapon I just picked up or this gummy bear flavoring."

I don't know why that makes me laugh, but it just does.

 

[SensesFailed]

This occurred to me as well while watching it. Sorry if this suddenly makes this thread political, but we are talking about a political hearing.

I kinda hope for sake of dems on this forum and in the vaping community that at least one dem in congress sides with vaping industry as I just think the party could lose a whole bunch of people on this issue, and the way they spin it.

Burr (R) expressed comments of public health concerns, and addressed the youth use issue, with reason. If dems did that, they'd likely maintain some allegiance from their party's followers. But if they keep peddling the erroneous claims and hyped up dangers, I'm thinking this will be an issue where it'll look like everyone that vapes must be a Republican. I'm yet to be meet a politically aware vaper that goes along with what Harkin was putting forth as 'facts of the situation regarding eCigs.'

Yeah, I might get backlash for this, but I won't side with one party or the other over one issue. I'm not saying others can't, shouldn't, but I personally will never do that. I wouldn't want to side with a party one one issue that I agree with them with and ignore the other thousands I don't, which is why I stay independent.

My biggest problem, is these two political parties, is that they agree with people's personal liberties, when it suits them.

 

[beebopnjazz]

Flavors were available! I started in January 2010 - spearmint, cola, red bull - pomegranate, blueberry, cinnamon roll, etc.

 

[beebopnjazz]

Yeah, I might get backlash for this, but I won't side with one party or the other over one issue. I'm not saying others can't, shouldn't, but I personally will never do that. I wouldn't want to side with a party one one issue that I agree with them with and ignore the other thousands I don't, which is why I stay independent.

My biggest problem, is these two political parties, is that they agree with people's personal liberties, when it suits them.

Both Dems and Reps are not who they were in the 60's that's for damn sure.

 

[Kent C]

It is still interesting to me how that decision back in 2009/10 was huge deal to vapers then, like really huge victory.

We felt the oppression in delayed customs during that time. And USPS tracking sucked! lol. Products from China directly or to our vendors from there, sat for 2-4x the usual time. wv2win and myself waited for three months on our similar packages from the same overseas vendor during that time. They came, but we had already written them off. So while it was a huge victory, we got the experience of what they could do and for those still around, that memory seems closer now than ever.

 

[Kent C]

Both Dems and Reps are not who they were in the 60's that's for damn sure.

That's part of the problem. Repubs finally woke up. Well, some of them. And there were some civil libertarian 'old left' then too. Not anymore. Or just a handful comparatively.

 

[vape-addict]

JMAN SAID THIS:Burr was clearly the hero of the hearing and was wonderful watching him probe Zeller to try and get him to admit that eCigs are less harmful than combustible tobacco. Burr's comments about fighting for rights of adults to make choices was comforting, and tells me there is a fight in congress to be had with regards to regulation of eCigs. It's possible that fight has be change my opinion/prediction that flavors will be restricted at some point.

I believe we have an ally here!! WE have to capitalize on this. I will go as far to say, he put Zeller on notice in regard to "wanting to see the science"

That signified to me he was not interested in any AGENDA. I interpreted that remark as you better back your nonsense up with facts or you will be challenged! He takes The Liberty of Americans seriously! IMHO Burr made his presence and opinion felt!

I don't belive we have a ally in senator Burr..it may be a smoke screen ..Isn't Nc trying put a excise tax on e-cigs?? He may be just trying protect a future tax base

 

[Kent C]

Burr is a Federal Senator. He doesn't have any force on what the State gov't does.

.... and by your same reverse smoke screen reasoning, Harkin would be an ally.... as would Zeller and McAfee for that matter.

 

[2coils]

I was so inspired after the hearing I wrote the Senator. This is what I said:

Dear Senator Burr,
I want to start by saying THANK YOU for being the voice of reason during the hearing on 5-15-14 in regard to Tobacco Control and E-cigarettes. There are over 15,000 small businesses nationwide selling e-cigarettes and promoting harm reduction. The current e-cig was created by Hon Lik (a pharmacist), who wanted a safer alternative to combustible cigarettes. This idea was initiated after watching his father die from lung cancer.
E-cigarettes CAN NOT be deemed under the Tobacco Control Act as it is currently written. This will be a death sentence to the ENTIRE industry. The TCA was designed to restrict Big Tobacco from introducing more deadly products to the market. This is done by a burdensome and expensive application process among other things. This same process will decimate the e-cig industry, and hand over what little is left, to Big Tobacco. The Same BT that we have been fighting to get Americans away from. In essence they will be rewarded while all small business will suffer.
YOU CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE! There is no arguing that some sort of regulation be placed on the e-cig industry. These regulations must be reasonable and affordable, so small business can sustain them.
You spoke about wanting to see the science. I implore you to look at science being done all over the world that shows nothing but promising results in regard to this new industry. The CDC has been driven by specific agenda. For example, the study that cites e-cig use had doubled among High school kids.....what Mr Friedan fails to mention, is that 90% of all kids that ever tried e-cigs were already smoking. We can not let the science be cherry picked to fit a specific agenda. Please hold everyone involved in this regulation process to a higher standard. Insist that small business not be shuttered because of over-expensive regulation. Let Americans continue to choose. The free market got this industry to where it is today.
Warmest Regards,
Tom Pavlou

Not perfect but im learning!!

 

[Yohkos]

So, the government is now telling us that we don't know how to be responsible parents and they will do the parenting for us and ban flavors.

 

[Kent C]

So, the government is now telling us that we don't know how to be responsible parents and they will do the parenting for us and ban flavors.

That's been the dominate view for a long time. Gov't has to 'save the child' from their parents. The 'seed' of that thinking - progressivism - goes back to at least 1913.

 

[SensesFailed]

That's part of the problem. Repubs finally woke up. Well, some of them. And there were some civil libertarian 'old left' then too. Not anymore. Or just a handful comparatively.

It depends on the topic. This is the issue when it comes to politicians, they HAVE to get re-elected, so who are they going to represent? The people who can get them re-elected, and corporations and by that, I mean BIG corporations. That goes for Dems and Republicans, liberals and conservatives, moderates and libertarians(well, the "libertarians" in office, which really aren't libertarians). You have the complete far left and the very far right, and very, very few left in the middle. There might be a small handful of politicans that are actually Centrists when it comes to political views, because that political view, doesn't get you re-elected.

I honestly hate the two party system because it's too extreme on either side of the aisle for my taste.

I just hope that politicians look at the facts and come to reality when it comes to vaping. I don't care if it's Democrat or Republican, they need to come together and be smart about this.

 

[Kent C]

I wish a few senators were there that I gave this line to:

'If you really care about the kids, keep their parents alive by not regulating or banning ecigarettes'

 

[Gato del Jugo]

For those who want to comment to any/all of the Senators, and I recommend you do, please do so both "privately" via their email/contact systems, as well as publicly, like on social media such as Facebook & Twitter..

I also urge you to "like" & re-tweet some of these public comments from others..


This kind of stuff might not seem like a lot, but since the internet is basically a tool of leverage, it does make an impact when done in large numbers..

And today's hearing is a prime opportunity to do just that...

 

[Kent C]

It depends on the topic. This is the issue when it comes to politicians, they HAVE to get re-elected, so who are they going to represent? The people who can get them re-elected, and corporations and by that, I mean BIG corporations. That goes for Dems and Republicans, liberals and conservatives, moderates and libertarians(well, the "libertarians" in office, which really aren't libertarians). You have the complete far left and the very far right, and very, very few left in the middle. There might be a small handful of politicans that are actually Centrists when it comes to political views, because that political view, doesn't get you re-elected.

I honestly hate the two party system because it's too extreme on either side of the aisle for my taste.

I just hope that politicians look at the facts and come to reality when it comes to vaping. I don't care if it's Democrat or Republican, they need to come together and be smart about this.

I have an more complete answer but not for here I'll just say as an aside that certain unions trump big corporations in support for certain candidates. AFSCUME and NEA (and one other, I forget the designation) are huge - bigger that BP and BT, for example.