Problems with TFA flavorings

[Sivat Regrebieh]

Ive read a few Threads including parts of that 5000+ post one about TFA flavorings. Nothing has seemed to help.
Im using Nudenic Vg and my list of tfa flavors are
Organic strawberry
lemon
blueberry extra
watermelon
grape juice
and i have some graham cracker left from a bavarian creme/GC combo i tried.

To be brief, ive wasted about 1000ml of vg and probably 100ml of flavorings trying to make this work. Everything ive mixed from 8% up to 30% of a flavor and every time it comes out very weak. Is there so trick to getting the flavors to come alive? When compared to store bought juices its like vaping a very weak counterpart or diluted version.

 

[catsitter]

Check, in particular, the last 6 months of that giant thread. You need to add creams and sweeteners and other complementary flavors to most mixes to get the flavors to pop. It's those things that make the difference, even more so than the percentage of the main flavor. Single flavors by themselves don't work terribly well. But check that part of the thread - there are an awful lot of recommendations and recipes and theory there that should help you out. Good luck!

 

[Ablonz]

Ill agree to that. I started using single flavors but then found out that more than one flavor is needed. Different flavorings bring others out. Also are you letting them steep or just trying them right away? With DIY comes patience. I have some that are good right away and some that need to sit for a month before the flavor comes out. Also, keep reading, the more you read the more you know.

 

[AndriaD]

I'd second that about steeping, since it seems you're using 100% VG? Apparently those take quite a while for the flavors to really "come out," and along with the long steeping, you would also need regular vigorous shaking, since VG is so extremely thick.

But yeah the single-flavor mixes really aren't that great, even with a really good flavoring -- TFA's banana nut bread is ok by itself, but it really comes alive with a bit of capella's vanilla custard v2 (no diketones), a smaller bit of TFA sweetener, and a very tee-tiny bit of acetyl pyrazine.

Andria

 

[dannyv45]

Many use the hot water method of steeping or just to thin the VG enough to blend the flavors. As VG warms it thins. So get yourself a thurmos cup fill it with hot water and sit the bottle in the cup. Let it sit for an hour and then remove the bottle and shake the heck out of it. Repeat this 2 more times.

Also over flavoring can result in no taste at all. So cut those percentages in half and work your way up. Let them steep in the thurmos for an hour in between each flavor adjustment.

It is also true with those TFA flavors that they don't work well alone and need to be combined with a cream, custard or cake type desert flavor. In fact the creams, custards or cakes should be the primary flavor and the fruits should be the note flavors. For instance what would go well together would be a NY cheese cake, Graham cracker, baverian cream and strawberry as the note flavor so a recipe may look something like this.

Cheese cake 7%
Graham cracker 2 - 3%
Strawberry 4%
Baverian cream 2%

This would require a week or 2 of steeping for the flavors to really pop.

Also be aware not all flavorings are the same. An organic strawberry is not the same as a sweet strawberry or a ripe strawberry or a natural strawberry or a wild strawberry. You need to experiment with different manufactures flavorings until you find the one that's right for your taste.

May I suggest some reading to help you understand the finer points here.

My blogs will give insight into all aspects of DYI, from steeping to what supplies to have on hand to a basic walk through mixing your first E-juice.

E-Cigarette Forum - dannyv45 - Blogs

Then read hoosier's blogs. These blogs concentrate on fine tuning your mix and give insight on additives.

E-Cigarette Forum - Hoosier - Blogs

Then read Boletus's blog's. These blogs concentrate on formulation of nicotine baces regarding proper calculations methods for figuring Nicotine concentration as well as safety.

E-Cigarette Forum - Boletus - Blogs

Then read Ginger's book "E-Cigarettes 102: DIY E-Liquid". It is a book which I've contributed to that delivers an in depth easy to follow guide in the art of DYI.

E-Cigarettes 102: DIY E-Liquid

I recommend viewing VPLive Vape Team Episode #82: DIY Safety and bookmark it for future reference. It explains safety in all aspects of DYI.

VPLive Vape Team Episode #82: DIY Safety

then read the stickies at the top of the page.

this will explain a lot of the how's and why's.

 

[Mr.Mann]

Ive read a few Threads including parts of that 5000+ post one about TFA flavorings. Nothing has seemed to help.
Im using Nudenic Vg and my list of tfa flavors are
Organic strawberry
lemon
blueberry extra
watermelon
grape juice
and i have some graham cracker left from a bavarian creme/GC combo i tried.

To be brief, ive wasted about 1000ml of vg and probably 100ml of flavorings trying to make this work. Everything ive mixed from 8% up to 30% of a flavor and every time it comes out very weak. Is there so trick to getting the flavors to come alive? When compared to store bought juices its like vaping a very weak counterpart or diluted version.

Just curious, if you have wasted a whole L of VG, what size bottles are you mixing? I get trying, but don't bother wasting resources with flavorings when they aren't cutting it. You can go back to them, but mostly if a flavor doesn't show promise at low, medium or high percentages, don't try and force it -- that'll just lead to wasted supplies. It's not that it won't eventually work under the right circumstances, but I have found pushing too hard to make flavors work will be counterproductive.

I pray that this doesn't look condescending, but try and relax. Don't expect to be wowed too quickly. Most importantly, try different manufacturers/different flavors in the same vein. For instance, I see you have the Blueberry Extra flavor from TFA, but do you have TFA's Blueberry Wild? That's the only blueberry I've found that'll do the job that I want, but soon I will try Medicine Flower's Blueberry. Maybe try Lemon Sicily from FLavourArt -- you should have NO problems with that being weak!

Now if it's more of a matter of getting flavors that you do like to work better and more clearly/vibrantly, then yes, there are some thing you can do. Hell, there a whole slew of things you can do! But, there are so many things you can do it's kinda difficult to even begin to state them here. Definitely read D45's blogs and DIY tips in general, not so much just vendor-specific threads/posts. Because no matter how many posts you read about vapers using any one or set of flavors, it means nothing unless it works for you. And finding out if it works for you should not require a whole liter of VG. However, I only know that because I have wasted a lot too (but not a whole liter of VG. ).

You have a little bit more time left, but Ecigexpress is offering a 40% off 10 and 30 mL flavorings right now. Use code FLAVOR40.

 

[Sivat Regrebieh]

Thanks for the info guys. I will start reading through some of those. For steeping, I actually mix my juices on a double boiler. I get a pot out and heat water to 160 degrees. Then mix my vg and nic solution (suspended in vg also) in glass beakers. I hold the vg at 160 degress for about 20 min until its thinned out. Then i add my flavoring and shake well. Pull the juice and let it cool to room temp naturally. Then it steeps an extra 2-4 days before use. And i have been mixing flavors. I make 30ml max for each test. usually start with 5-10ml to test it then go on to a 30ml trial.
The strawberry lemonade ive been attempting has failed miserably. Im thinking the organic strawberry suspended in vg is not going to work. Ive mixed the strawberry as low as 10% and as high as 28%. once over 20% i can start to taste it.

On a different note i mixed grape juice at 14% and bubble gum at 4% with 1% sweetner and 1% sweet and tart and it actually came out pretty well. Those flavors were alot stronger although not as strong as store bought juice.

I also had a mix with 10% bavarian creme, 5% sweet creme, 5% blueberry extra, and 0.5% cinnamon spice and that mix came out very well. Was super excellent without the blueberry. Im going to try something other then the blueberry extra next time. I just think its not the right blueberry for the mix.

 

[Sivat Regrebieh]

But i am on a mission to mix a strawberry lemonade. Ive been on that quest since i started vaping to find a decent one. Now im attempting to make one. Also i have been on mission to copy my favorite all day vape and that's durasmokes' punch drunk.

 

[dannyv45]

I would like to add as an update to my previous post.

1. make only 10ml samples
2. Don't go on to 30ml until you've perfected your 10ml sample.
3. If your mixing at 160F then rebottle into 10ml samples and taste test your fresh mix then steep those 10ml samples at 150F with the CAP ON for 2 - 3 hours tasting every hour.

Steeping guide for hot water (150F)

Tobaccos 3 - 5 hours
Deserts, creams, custards 2 - 4 hours
fruits 1 hour.

Write everything down and keep a log so you can duplicate your efforts and refer back to your notes as to what worked and what did not.

 

[Mr.Mann]

What Danny said!

I figured you were mixing high volume.

I mix 5 mL to test single or dual flavors as they come in, and 10 mL to test real mixes (though occasionally I'll use what I *discovered* in the 5 mL batches). Sometimes if I think I got it right, then I'l move up in volume, but that's rare unless I know I got it right.

Try the Wild Blueberry from TFA next time.

 

[smelly]

I might catch some heat for this... Steeping is hogwash... Do not steep... Hot water bath, letting things sit with their caps off, so on and so forth... all that does actually is help destroy the flavor molecules. A good bottle of juice is good straight out the gate. My mixes are VG and the flavoring and that's it. I shake the bottle vigorously counting to 100, sometimes 200. If it doesn't taste good after that, then it's a fail IMO.

Make test batches in 3 or 4 ml amounts so you do not waste much. Here is what I do when I want to figure out a single flavor:
Bottle 1-1 drop per ml, bottle 2-2 drops per ml, bottle 3-4 drops per ml, bottle 4-6 drops per ml, etc.

*Don't forget to measure your drops so you can determine the % afterward.

Now test using an RDA. Better yet (what I do), a different RDA for every different bottle %. Keep coffee beans and water at hand to help cleanse nose & palate between tastings. Next, let the bottles sit (with their lids ON) for a few days and then try them again. Whichever one still has enough flavor is your winner. Record your favorite. It helps to have a partner so you can do all the tasting blind. You only find out which % you liked after your partner tallies the votes.

Also, I've made many clone recipes and DIY recipes posted on the ole' interwebs... most of them suck and are weak.

Ethyl Maltol mutes flavors, do not waste your time. It helps when you want to add... hmm.. a "darkness" I'd say - but at the cost of muting the profile quite a bit actually.

One good thing about vaping weak juice is that your palate will adjust and you will get used to it. I vaped super weak juice for 6 months because I did not know any better. Ignorance is bliss in this case. I then started trying things like Bobas and Vapor Chef = my juice tasted super weak compared to those. I then went back to the drawing board and now consistently hit strengths that I am happy with. It has taken a lot of work and wasted time.

Do not expect to make strong tasting juice straight away - especially if you're relying mostly on the WWW for your instructions. On the other hand, do not give up, do not let yourself become frustrated. You will find what works for you, trial and error is your best friend.

Here is a recipe that changed the way I thought about DIY juice. It isn't mine but it helped me quite a bit.

Peach Lemonade-
Flavor Art White Peach 13.5%
TFA Lemon 16.5%
Lorann Tart & Sour 3%
*Note - do not replace the ingredients with other flavor makers versions - it will not work. Also, these are very fluid flavorings so in this case 33% flavor really dilutes the juice. You will not win any cloud competitions with this one But it does taste like really good peach lemonade and at 33% you can rest assured it's a strong flavor.

PS - If I were doing a Strawberry Lemonade I would start with:
TFA Lemon 16.5%
CAP Strawberry Cream 3.5% (that's right, I said Strawberry CREAM)
CAP Sweet Strawberry 10%
Lorann Tart & Sour 3%

Hmmmm... maybe I'll make some right now.

Any way - hope this has been helpful in some way.

 

[smelly]

I might catch some heat for this... Steeping is hogwash... Do not steep... Hot water bath, letting things sit with their caps off, so on and so forth... all that does actually is help destroy the flavor molecules. A good bottle of juice is good straight out the gate. My mixes are VG and the flavoring and that's it. I shake the bottle vigorously counting to 100, sometimes 200. If it doesn't taste good after that, then it's a fail IMO.

Make test batches in 3 or 4 ml amounts so you do not waste much. Here is what I do when I want to figure out a single flavor:
Bottle 1-1 drop per ml, bottle 2-2 drops per ml, bottle 3-4 drops per ml, bottle 4-6 drops per ml, etc.

*Don't forget to measure your drops so you can determine the % afterward.

Now test using an RDA. Better yet (what I do), a different RDA for every different bottle %. Keep coffee beans and water at hand to help cleanse nose & palate between tastings. Next, let the bottles sit (with their lids ON) for a few days and then try them again. Whichever one still has enough flavor is your winner. Record your favorite. It helps to have a partner so you can do all the tasting blind. You only find out which % you liked after your partner tallies the votes.

Also, I've made many clone recipes and DIY recipes posted on the ole' interwebs... most of them suck and are weak.

Ethyl Maltol mutes flavors, do not waste your time. It helps when you want to add... hmm.. a "darkness" I'd say - but at the cost of muting the profile quite a bit actually.

One good thing about vaping weak juice is that your palate will adjust and you will get used to it. I vaped super weak juice for 6 months because I did not know any better. Ignorance is bliss in this case. I then started trying things like Bobas and Vapor Chef = my juice tasted super weak compared to those. I then went back to the drawing board and now consistently hit strengths that I am happy with. It has taken a lot of work and wasted time.

Do not expect to make strong tasting juice straight away - especially if you're relying mostly on the WWW for your instructions. On the other hand, do not give up, do not let yourself become frustrated. You will find what works for you, trial and error is your best friend.

Here is a recipe that changed the way I thought about DIY juice. It isn't mine but it helped me quite a bit.

Peach Lemonade-
Flavor Art White Peach 13.5%
TFA Lemon 16.5%
Lorann Tart & Sour 3%
*Note - do not replace the ingredients with other flavor makers versions - it will not work. Also, these are very fluid flavorings so in this case 33% flavor really dilutes the juice. You will not win any cloud competitions with this one But it does taste like really good peach lemonade and at 33% you can rest assured it's a strong flavor.

PS - If I were doing a Strawberry Lemonade I would start with:
TFA Lemon 16.5%
CAP Strawberry Cream 3.5% (that's right, I said Strawberry CREAM)
CAP Sweet Strawberry 10%
Lorann Tart & Sour 3%

Hmmmm... maybe I'll make some right now.

Any way - hope this has been helpful in some way.

edit*. OK maybe the strawberry cream was a bad idea hahaha. It's not bad, I'm vaping it on top of mango custard so it's a little hard to tell what's going on. Try the peach lemonade recipe first then start lowering the peach and adding strawberry. Trial and error