Question about double twisted kanthal on my regulated device

[betterthanyou]

]So two strands of twisted 32g kanthal, the resistance is halved? Each takes half the power.
power = volts x amps
amps = volts/ohms
so power = volts^2 /ohms

so power/wattage = (3.6Vx3.6V)/1.3ohms = 9.9 watts
twisted wires, resistance is halved (2.6ohms per strand), each takes half the power, so 4.9W each strand

So would each strand of twisted kanthal receive half of the total 2.7amps? 1.3amps through each wire?

if I described this correctly and not like a ...... should I assume I am not getting sufficient wattage/amperage through the coil for best performance?

 

[State O' Flux]

Resistance will vary dependent on how tight the twist is... in that you can't assume it will be exactly 1/2. You can however approach the resistance as if it were simply one (thicker) wire at X resistance.

So... yes, if two wires twisted produces a 1.3Ω net resistance and voltage is 3.6 - then per the handy dandy ohms law calculator, you're using 10 watts/2.8 amps. Still and again - as the stranded wires are acting as one wire, there's no real need to consider the power delivered as "divided", as you would with two separate coils in parallel.

Just pretend it's some lumpy 28 gauge. ;-)

 

[SkvLTD]

It will HAVE to be a very, very solid twist indeed.

By the way, is the whole wire twist a new age for "dual" coils in a single wrap or what?

 

[State O' Flux]

By the way, is the whole wire twist a new age for "dual" coils in a single wrap or what?

Nope. More like what some do... when they run out of thicker wire. As in - "aww crap, I'm out of 26 & 27ga wire?!" - wire.

Some love it because the theory goes that it offers more surface area vs. a same resistance single wire, and are willing to twist 2, 3 and I seem to recall some photo of braided 4 wire.
Wouldn't know... although I've briefly played with twists, I generally don't have anything smaller than 28 ga, and tend to use mostly 27 ga. To each their own.

 

[UncleChuck]

Nope. More like what some do... when they run out of thicker wire. As in - "aww crap, I'm out of 26 & 27ga wire?!" - wire.

Some love it because the theory goes that it offers more surface area vs. a same resistance single wire, and are willing to twist 2, 3 and I seem to recall some photo of braided 4 wire.
Wouldn't know... although I've briefly played with twists, I generally don't have anything smaller than 28 ga, and tend to use mostly 27 ga. To each their own.

I think I fall into the second category, but started in the first. Last time I messed around with twisted wire was way back when I started getting involved with gennys, and seeing as I was still trying to straighten out the genny itself I gave up on twisted and stuck with single strands of round.

Fast-forward to recently and 28g is my standard with 26g here and there for low ohm single coils, and I decided to pick up some 30 and 32 specifically for trying out twisting again. Rebuilding is routing to the point where I can actually reliably compare single-strand to twisted, and I've been getting some incredible results. So far my best builds have been with triple-strands of 30g.

I have no real idea what's technically going on with twisted wire. I mean surface area is dramatically increased and resistance is decreased, but the same is true of going from 28 to 26 but I'm seeing much larger gains in performance with the twisted. My AGI now has a .9 ohm single coil of double-strand 30g that performs on par with the previous build which was about 7w higher with 28g.

My Kraken previously had dual 1 ohm 28g Micros, which were replaced with a single .5 ohm coil of triple-strand 30g, and vapor production has improved as well as flavor. It seems like when using twisted wire either you get the same performance for less power, or you get more performance for the same power. I know there are a lot of other variables that could be in play here but the performance gains have been consistent.

For a given resistance, you have a huge mass of wire, which normally would take forever to heat up (like having a 3 ohm coil of 28g for example) but it doesn't, heat up times seem comparable to 28g of the same resistance. Seems too good to be true, must be some magic involved!

 

[st0nedpenguin]

I always figured the performance difference was because twisted wire has a lot more surface area to retain juice since the gaps between the wires actually hold juice better than plain round wire.

You may end up with the same outer diameter compared to thicker wire, but the twisted has a lot more surface area in contact with juice which is what really matters.

 

[State O' Flux]

Seems too good to be true, must be some magic involved!

Maybe it's like how the "nooks and crannies" in Thomas' English Muffins hold more butter for yummy eatin' goodness - the nooks and crannies of multi-strand coils hold more juice for atomizin' - and yummy vapin' goodness.

 

[UncleChuck]

I think you guys are on to something there, maybe more juice being available for vaporizing is responsible for the increase in flavor and vapor, not any sort of heating issue.

Two things to support this- when I was rewicking one of my twisted builds, and burning off all the old juice, it seemed like it threw off a lot of vapor, and burned for longer compared to a standard single strand micro

Second thing- when I finished up my Kraken build, before adding all the "reservoir cotton" or any juice in the tank, I just had the super tiny piece of wick that went about 1/8" above the coil, then only stuck out on the bottom enough to touch the wick hole.

I usually test my builds like this to make sure everything vapes OK before going through the tedious process of adding the additional cotton in there. Anyway, the amount of wick is incredibly small, but I noticed I was able to get a few good pulls before it dried out, which was better than the few small puffs I usually get on my initial testing vapes.

I also remember, with my IgoW, going from normal 1 ohm micros to 1 ohm split coils, which were literally the same exact coils, just with double the wicking capacity. Flavor and vapor improved in that instance too, so I bet it does have something to do with more juice being there. Here's that's build:



Good call guys!

 

[TheJakeBailey]

I point you to waffles vs Pancakes, and their relative syrup retention. Need I say more? (have absolutely NO idea and have never tried twisted wire. lol)

 

[UncleChuck]

I point you to waffles vs Pancakes, and their relative syrup retention. Need I say more? (have absolutely NO idea and have never tried twisted wire. lol)

Well I do find waffles superior, so I guess it's only natural to prefer twisted wire

Your post made me want to vape some Belgian waffle juice, unfortunately I don't have any

 

[dice57]

I use twisted 28 on the Aqua in a dual vertical micro coil build with external hemp fiber wick. Basically I tried it to get a lower ohm build while getting a longer coil wrapped around a 18 gauge blunt tip syringe needle. Wanted to get as much wick coverage as possible in the space allowed for the build. Have been quite happy with it, lots of flavor and vape. Tried a twisted 28 single coil at around 1.3 ohms or so, while it vaped great, took some time to heat up, but once hot, retained the heat well for chain vaping.

Then I bought some ribbon and tried the twisted ribbon triple wire twist like the Mundy Magic wire. The flavor was pretty damn fine, must say. have this wire set up in a horizontal build and in a vertical mounted dual series build. The horizontal came out to .76 ohms, the vertical was 1.33 ohms. Both produced a noticeably improved flavor, and both heat up quite fast. Do have the 1.33 ohm build running at around 20 watts, and it is a damn fine vape as is the horizontal builds.

Sure it's a pain to build, but tis fun to experiment. Have a new rba on the way, so will try something different with that, but for now am quite pleased with the builds I have so won't mess with them for a few months, maybe. lol.

 

[Bunnykiller]

Wonders how guitar strings would work??

 

[dice57]

Wonders how guitar strings would work??

That would be one way to tune you build. lmao.

 

[State O' Flux]

That would be one way to tune you build. lmao.

There... did'ja hear that? There was a mass, groaning sound that accompanied the last 10 or 11 prior two posts. I heard it, I know I did.
Couldn't have been just in my head, could it... have.... been?

 

[betterthanyou]

Resistance will vary dependent on how tight the twist is... in that you can't assume it will be exactly 1/2. You can however approach the resistance as if it were simply one (thicker) wire at X resistance.

So... yes, if two wires twisted produces a 1.3Ω net resistance and voltage is 3.6 - then per the handy dandy ohms law calculator, you're using 10 watts/2.8 amps. Still and again - as the stranded wires are acting as one wire, there's no real need to consider the power delivered as "divided", as you would with two separate coils in parallel.

Just pretend it's some lumpy 28 gauge. ;-)

If the stranded wires are acting as one wire wouldn't that imply it is a series circuit instead of parallel?
and the 10watts/2.8amps are not halved through each wire? I should think of it as a single wire that is receiving 10watts and 2.8 amps?

and in the equation power = volts^2/ohms do I use the 1.3ohm total resistance or the ~2.6 resistance of each strand?

 

[dice57]

If the stranded wires are acting as one wire wouldn't that imply it is a series circuit instead of parallel?
and the 10watts/2.8amps are not halved through each wire? I should think of it as a single wire that is receiving 10watts and 2.8 amps?

and in the equation power = volts^2/ohms do I use the 1.3ohm total resistance or the ~2.6 resistance of each strand?

No a series would be end to end to end, which is additive. If you tied 2 coils together, or wrapped them with one wire leaving a space between, and each wrapped coil measure 1 ohm, total ohms would be 2 ohms. but if you twisted the wire together or just twisted the tails together with the coils next to each other, then you'd have a .5 ohm coil.

Sure if you are just looking at the watts going through each strand of each coil, then that would be half of the total watts/amps supplied, BUT, your battery doesn't know or care about such things as twisted coils, dual, trip or quad coils, all it knows is what is demanded of it. No matter how you build, mount, twist, use single, double, quads, when concerned about total amps demanded or total watt output the only thing you need be concerned about is the total resistance of the build measured. a .5 ohm build is still going to draw a total of 8 amps if supplied with 4 volts, and produce 32 total watts through the one, two, three or four wires that your build contains. Batteries are dumb, they just don't care and all you really need to be concerned about is the totals.

It's like drinking a beer, you put one 12 oz bottle up to your lips and drink till it's empty, you get a total of 12 ounces of brew delivered to your gut, put 2 bottles up to you lips and guzzle them both at the same time, sure each bottle is only going to produce 12 ounces, but the total volume delivered to you stomach is going to be 24 ounces. Your stomach and head don't care how it got there it just has to deal with the results.

 

[State O' Flux]

t's like drinking a beer, you put one 12 oz bottle up to your lips and drink till it's empty, you get a total of 12 ounces of brew delivered to your gut, put 2 bottles up to you lips and guzzle them both at the same time, sure each bottle is only going to produce 12 ounces, but the total volume delivered to you stomach is going to be 24 ounces. Your stomach and head don't care how it got there... it just has to deal with the results.

It's that damn, indomitable groaning sound again... for all but post 16 that is. Ya' gotta admit, this last bit was leaning into kinda clever.

I knew it wasn't just my head... I knew it... I... think I might have known it.

 

[dice57]

roflmfao, yeah, I get in the same argument with some long standing veterans who tell me but if you are using a dual coil your actually only vaping at half the watts, you aren't really vaping at 35 watts, and I try to explain that you need to finish the equation 15+15 still equals 30, even a 3rd grade student can figure that out. and even though I am only pulling 4 amps through each coil it is still drawing 8 amps from the battery.

The main advantage of going twisted, duals, and whatever, for me is, I can make my coils longer while maintaining a low ohm build giving me more wick to coil contact without out wicking, dry hits, the build. The major drawback with twisted is, as you approach and exceed 1 ohm, then the heat up time is going to take longer. Not to mention faster battery drainage. Sure it may taste and produce more vape, but you have to wait for it. Where a single wire micro coil of builds of 1-2 ohms is going to heat up instantly, why? Well duh, there is less wire mass to heat up so it gets their faster.

Damn, now my head is starting to hurt too.

 

[State O' Flux]

Damn, now my head is starting to hurt too.

Take 30 mg of oxycodone, put your head between your knees... and drink a large gin & tonic through a straw. (Mmmm... maybe that only works for me?)

Although it hurts my head a bit too - folks doing it wrong, but convinced they're right - doesn't bother me as much as it used to.
A lot of these guys and gals are young'ish - haven't had much of a reason to need mathematics, and certainly not basic electrical, in a few years. If they're old geezers and haven't dealt with it - even more likely they're having a hard time dealing with the whole concept.
Now and again, I'll make a math error - partly due to over-confidence, some to simple forgetfulness... and part because I'm a certified idiot.

A good ways back when... I had to teach a 6 week advanced electro-mechanical diagnostics class that was foisted upon me. I had to re-learn modern math, as well as basic and some advanced electrical theory and application - all over again. You never saw a guy so stressed out and exhausted in your life. Practice teaching, in an empty classroom at midnight... and trying to come up with all eventualities, so that I was able to coherently argue "off lesson" and prove anything I said.

And now, that's why I'm now a certified idiot. Students killed my brain. (Well that... and gin)

 

[dice57]

Damn, fresh out of gin, will Vodka work? Only use it for DIY juice, but heck..... I did just pop some ibuprofen, since that's all I had.

Need to get that new mouse and broadband that can reach out and slap one silly. lmao. Careful folks, Taser is online, live and fully charged!!!