Question about the "P" on the Label

[Hangar]

...what's it stand for, empty??

seriously...twice now ive received a couple packs of "P" labeled cartomziers once from vapornine and once from another seller and both times the "P" packs were all completely dry inside...i cant tell if they were meant to be empties or if they were so old that they just dried up...im wondering if its just a coicidense that the only 2 times it happened so far both packs were the only packs ive ever received with the "P" on it.

anyone know?

**edit - 1 pack was the foil wrapped and the other pack was the boxed pack...but both had the "P".

 

[Nori]

I think it's suppose to be french pipe. I bought two from Ben (foil wrap) Ive only cracked open one of them and it appears to be fine.

 

[PhiHalcyon]

Empty carts will be available soon, but I'd be too embarrassed to even pretend to expect them to come in a blister pack. Heck, I'm not even sure if they'll be coming with the silicone storage components.

Nonetheless, in preferring my favorite juice above all others, I'm a little jealous that I wasn't the first to luck into some empty carts.

 

[Hangar]

you wouldnt have been lucky...they (the ones i received) dont taste at all good after filling them...they have sometimes a very burnt and yet other times a very poisonous taste after ive tried filling them. Ive let them sit over nite, ive tried different amounts of drops (not too little not too much, etc) but nothing gets them workable for me...theyre tossable.

All i can say is that I hope the REAL empties will work out much better, heh.

 

[PhiHalcyon]

Hangar,

Considering the relatively short amount of time that this design has been in production, (compared to the amount of time it would take for a filled and capped cart to dry out), I find the odds of your empties having been previously filled to be near nil. Consequently, the difference between your empties and the 'real' ones is also most likely nil.

So, unless one is inclined to believe that the Chinese are the only ones capable of properly filling an empty cart (and that our request for empties has therefore been in vain), the only logical conclusion that can be drawn from your experience is that the determination of an effective empty-filling procedure is going to require some thoughtful experimentation in order to get it right.

Other than from boiling/scorching the juice in an over-filled cart, I have found the primary cause of bad taste to be an insufficient amount of juice reaching the coil (which causes the coil to overheat and burn both the coil-support wick and the thin fabric blanket that is wrapped around it). This is why I suck on a new cart (with my finger blocking, and/or tapping on, the battery-end hole), before I actually install it onto the battery.

 

[Hangar]

im sure someone will come up with a way to properly fill empties, thats a given pretty much...although I personally believe that the majority of users who are willing to pay a premium cartridge price for a more convenient vaping system such as the Nebula will most likely shun the idea of having to deal with anything more than a simple 60 second battery-end filling session. You cant really go by what the folks on these forums are willing to do to keep their ecigs functioning well and cheaply because WE are not the majority of users, I instead believe WE here are the minority who seem to enjoy taking ecigs to another level above and beyond what a typical and average user would be willing to do. This is why I think that the 2 piece design is the start of something new and better for ecigs in general...its the way to go for the future and the average user right now who isnt willing to deal with all the cleaning rituals and dead or clogged atomizer issues, etc...and if refilling them is going to take any more effort than wiping ones behind then i think only WE might be willing to deal with it

That aside though, I wasnt so much trying to point out any possible shortcomings regarding empties as I was trying to figure out why I seem to be the only one complaining about receiving these empties to begin with. I told the other supplier (not Ben) that I received empties or dried out carts and he responded as if he didnt believe me, like i was playing games with him. So i sent them back to show him...but now i wonder if he'll just think i "did something" to dry them out, lol.

 

[Nem]

I read somewhere the "P" was tobacco flavor so the french pipe would make sense. I had some once and they were not empty. Had a tobacco flavor but could not put my finger on exactly what.

 

[PhiHalcyon]

Hangar,

I have a friend who I directed to the Nebula who isn't interested in refilling her carts at all. She just buys scores of pre-filleds, and is as happy as can be. Of course, she's spending about the same amount of money as she was on analogs (which, as we know, is by no means necessary), but she, like many, don't necessarily switch to the e-cig to save their money. They switch to save their lives.

As for the dreadful complexities of successfully filling an empty cart, there simply isn't much room for it to be more method-dependent and complex than what topping-off a cart is now. I'm sure that those of us who are willing to mess with filling our own carts to save some money will have it mastered in no time.

As for why you're the only one complaining about receiving empty carts; beats me. Maybe you're the only one who has received them.

 

[Hangar]

"I have a friend who I directed to the Nebula who isn't interested in refilling her carts at all. She just buys scores of pre-filleds, and is as happy as can be. Of course, she's spending about the same amount of money as she was on analogs (which, as we know, is by no means necessary), but she, like many, don't necessarily switch to the e-cig to save their money. They switch to save their lives."

yep thats exactly my point...I see that friend of yours as what the mass market will want from ecigs and why the Nebula is a great idea (but the QC needs alot of work and a slight redesign is probably in order as well...if it werent for the FDA issues id now be investing in manufacturing my own 2 piece design).

"As for the dreadful complexities of successfully filling an empty cart, there simply isn't much room for it to be more method-dependent and complex than what topping-off a cart is now. I'm sure that those of us who are willing to mess with filling our own carts to save some money will have it mastered in no time."

Yep, absolutely

"As for why you're the only one complaining about receiving empty carts; beats me. Maybe you're the only one who has received them."

I'll tell ya...it would just figure if I was THAT unlucky to be the only one so far

 

[Hangar]

I read somewhere the "P" was tobacco flavor so the french pipe would make sense. I had some once and they were not empty. Had a tobacco flavor but could not put my finger on exactly what.

thanks for the info Nem, hehe...maybe I AM the only one so far 8-o

 

[syntaxevasion]

I've had two customers to date e-mail me regarding their cartomizers being dry right out of the packs. Seems to be a fluke. Doesn't happen often..

When it does I'm likely to include an extra pack or issue a coupon code to make up for it..The Neb has been very well received and more reliable than anything I've had experience with to date, no atomizers getting clogged up/burning out..batteries are more solid than most.

I see what you're saying about most people not wanting to get too involved in the refill process, but I recommend the threaded end drip method to most people in the area and everyone's been loving these things.. I agree it's not the *perfect* solution, but I've only had a few people report anything but being happy with their Neb.

 

[syntaxevasion]

thanks for the info Nem, hehe...maybe I AM the only one so far 8-o

Actually, one of two.

 

[PhiHalcyon]

I see that friend of yours as what the mass market will want from ecigs and why the Nebula is a great idea ... if it weren't for the FDA issues I'd now be investing in manufacturing my own 2 piece design.

The Nebula is a great e-cig, and is definitely getting the job done for me, but I don't think that anyone ever said it was fit to compete in the mass market. The very disposable atomizer-cart design that makes it easy to use is what keeps the cart manufacturing costs too high to be able to offer the non-refilling user the cost-saving benefit that us refilling users typically enjoy. Throwing away working atomizers, cart bodies, and threaded connectors just because the atomizer blanket and filler material need changing, (or worse, just because a cart is out of juice), is too much of a waste of assembly labor and hardware. This is why I refuse to throw away my used carts - because I know that once I get my hands on the correct atomizer blanket and filler materials that I will be able to refurbish almost all of them. Probably many times. But, of course, neither refurbishing atomizer-carts, nor even refilling them, are, in my opinion, realistic options for a mass-market ready product.

The Nebula is a great product that is quite marketable to people like us who are willing to fill our own carts, or to people like my friend who are more concerned about their health than in saving money; but a truly mass-market ready e-cig will need to minimize the manufacturing costs of the disposables far more than what can be achieved with the raw-material-heavy, hand-assembled atomizer-carts that we have today.

As for the FDA, I no longer share your concerns; but I do share your desire to manufacture my own design. I just lack the R&D budget to get from the developed-concept phase to the production phase.

 

[Hangar]

Well I can see an environmental problem coming into play what with throwing away all that plastic and metal and this is part of the reason why i said it needs a bit of redesigning/engineering, however in regards to the cost, It seems that the shipping and its associated risks are what's causing the high price and not the manufacturing itself. I was quoted only .20 cents per piece from the manufacturer so thats $1.00 per 5-pack to purchase direct...however, GETTING THEM HERE is another story as they are on the FDA's official "ban list"

The carts themselves are dropping in retail price too and can be found for as cheap as $7.50 per 5-pack lately...if you are a heavy smoker these new cheaper prices are still considerably cheaper on a monthly basis than smoking real cigs. But I agree that at nearly $13 per 5-pack it no longer has mass appeal...but we have the FDA to partially blame for that.

 

[PhiHalcyon]

Hangar,

Basic shipping charges from China to the U.S. are roughly 12 cents per cart. So, if carts could be gotten for 20 cents each, then this would be a total of 32 cents per cart, or $1.60 per 5-pack. I absolutely know that it's not, but if this was a price that was achievable at a dealer-level quantity (creating a three point distribution path of manufacturer-dealer-consumer), then the retail price would typically be about $3.20 per 5-pack; if at a wholesaler-level quantity (creating a four point distribution path), then about $6.40 per 5-pack; and if at a super wholesaler-level quantity (creating a five point distribution path), then about $12.80 per 5-pack.

The FDA impact on the improperly labeled and marketed ecig is probably, at most, comparable to adding a point to the distribution path; but, as you can see by the arbitrary numbers above, adding a point to the distribution path basically doubles the price. Likewise, cutting the manufacturing costs in half is about the same as subtracting a point from the distribution path - resulting in half the retail price.

Consequently, your somewhat sinister or unscrupulous number dropping (regardless of their misleading or realistic nature) has done nothing but aid in illustrating the fact that an inefficiency in labor and material utilization is a waste that gets compounded through the distribution path into higher retail prices.

*********************

Everyone else,

To be sure that no one has gotten any false impressions from my previous post, I would like to make a couple of clarifications:

1. I do not see the potentiality of refurbishing carts with new atomizer blankets and filler material to be an essential component of the Nebula's value. In fact, I see it as being nothing more than a potential bonus -should I happen to one day acquire the original or comparable materials. Even with the proper materials, however, the task of refurbishing a cart is not exactly a simple and straight-forward matter; and is therefore likely to be beyond the scope of most users' patience.

2. My criticisms of the inefficiences of the Nebula design were in no way meant to question the quality and value of the Nebula product. I love my Nebula, use it exclusively, and have no intentions of giving it up any time soon.

 

[Hangar]

Phi - maybe im missing the point...

"Basic shipping charges from China to the U.S. are roughly 12 cents per cart. So, if carts could be gotten for 20 cents each, then this would be a total of 32 cents per cart, or $1.60 per 5-pack. I absolutely know that it's not, but if this was a price that was achievable at a dealer-level quantity (creating a three point distribution path of manufacturer-dealer-consumer), then the retail price would typically be about $3.20 per 5-pack; if at a wholesaler-level quantity (creating a four point distribution path), then about $6.40 per 5-pack; and if at a super wholesaler-level quantity (creating a five point distribution path), then about $12.80 per 5-pack."

ok yes this is basic math we all understand and simply means that the price we pay as consumers will depend upon who and where our suppliers have purchased from. In other words, if theyve purchased direct from the manufacturer we will receive a better price than if they've purchased from a reseller or distributor "down the line".

"The FDA impact on the improperly labeled and marketed ecig is probably, at most, comparable to adding a point to the distribution path; but, as you can see by the arbitrary numbers above, adding a point to the distribution path basically doubles the price. Likewise, cutting the manufacturing costs in half is about the same as subtracting a point from the distribution path - resulting in half the retail price."

Ok...so you agree that the current FDA issues can cause an increase in street prices of ecigs...and you also feel that if manufacturing costs were less (possibly by increasing their effeciency) that this would help to aleviate or offset any increases caused by extra FDA related shipping and lost product costs. I think we can all understand that train of thought, although I might add that in a market of high demand the manufacturer is unlikely to lower prices just because they are saving money due to an increase in effeciency and much more likely to invest it for use in times when product demand drops.

"Consequently, your somewhat sinister or unscrupulous number dropping (regardless of their misleading or realistic nature) has done nothing but aid in illustrating the fact that an inefficiency in labor and material utilization is a waste that gets compounded through the distribution path into higher retail prices."

You've completely lost me here...sinister? number dropping?...maybe im misunderstanding you but I was just quoting numbers given to me by manufacturers, other reseller deals and from other informative posts which can be found right here in the vapornine forum...its not like its a big undercover secret operation going on here, lol...all the data is public information available by simply digging and asking. My prices came from email quotes from manufacturer and rate sheets I was sent as well as being simply what I've paid for certain order from other websites already. If the manufacturer price quote i was given turned out to be inaccurate (although i have no reason to believe it is) then it would only be because i was misinformed, but there is and surely was no sinister intentions on my part at least...so im not sure where you're headed or what your entire point is.

Also, its probably just because im so tired right now but I dont understand how the prices ive mentioned actually "illustrate" that a manufacturing labor problem is now responsible for the high prices in Neb carts?

Although most manufacturer's have a warranty period (Im not certain but I think the Nebula stuff is supposed to be 1 year) its useless because of the combination of shipping costs vs FDA risk.

The fact is, if the FDA was not invloved in this at all and there was no offical regulations for ecigs prices would fall, if not simply due to a huge influx of competition among sellers...this is obviously not going to happen in this case but it has in many other industries.

 

[PhiHalcyon]

Hangar,

1. I know what the quantity prices from the manufacturer are, and they are no where near the 20 cents you mentioned - even if you bought 10,000 at a time. At least not for the atomized cartridges that we were discussing. I wouldn't find 20 cents hard to believe for the 901 style mouthpiece carts though.

2. Regardless of what the quantity prices actually are, between customs, seizures, and/or seizure-avoiding work-arounds, you may as well nearly double the price for all practical purposes. And when you do so, a retail price of between $2 and $3 per cart is right on the mark.

3. There's no point in talking about a mass-market ready ecig (that is sold as ubiquitously as analogs) until a U.S.-based company shows everyone how to take the FDA out of the game. Even with the new proposed powers over tobacco products that the FDA is likely to eventually get, the FDA's role should ultimately be about what it should be about which is regulating the manufacture and ingredients of the juice, dictating certain labeling requirements, and clamping down on unproven claims.

4. The basic math exercise was simply me playing with your 20 cent figure to show how significant of a reduction in retail pricing can occur with just a small reduction in manufacturer prices (or, by implication, manufacturing costs). The purpose of which was to emphasize the significantly worthwhile objective of minimizing the labor and materials required to produce the juice-filled disposables.

5. I suppose that it is possible that I am completely out of touch with how most people see the matter, but, to me, the mentioning of prices you have paid at a supplier other than the one in whose forum you were posting was so patently inappropriate as to not even be debatable. For someone with as much business experience as you have claimed, I'm quite surprised that you don't seem to agree.

 

[Hangar]

"1. I know what the quantity prices from the manufacturer are, and they are no where near the 20 cents you mentioned - even if you bought 10,000 at a time. At least not for the atomized cartridges that we were discussing. I wouldn't find 20 cents hard to believe for the 901 style mouthpiece carts though."

ok well if thats the case then obviously ive either been simply misinformed by 2 different sales reps at Kanger or perhaps even blatantly lied to?..not sure what to say about that....but then what do you know the price to be and from what source?...as I said my source was Kanger, through personally written emails on 2 differnt ocassions from 2 different reps plus a spreadsheet which Kanger themselves sent me...I agree it seem low, but this is what the manufacturer is telling me. You're making me feel as if I was lied to.

"2. Regardless of what the quantity prices actually are, between customs, seizures, and/or seizure-avoiding work-arounds, you may as well nearly double the price for all practical purposes. And when you do so, a retail price of between $2 and $3 per cart is right on the mark."

Yes I completely agree the FDA issues are increasing prices, naturally...but what the price point ultimately will be, will end up being determined by the market itself and how much of the market share a particular vendor wants to own...right now theres a price war going on which is a very bad thing for the industry as a whole and will effect both buyers and sellers alike...if it continues and snowballs everyone will suffer in the end unfortunately...and its because there are too many people getting into this business who dont think ahead too well We need some sort of regulation, where it comes from is another topic entirely, heh.

"3. There's no point in talking about a mass-market ready ecig (that is sold as ubiquitously as analogs) until a U.S.-based company shows everyone how to take the FDA out of the game. Even with the new proposed powers over tobacco products that the FDA is likely to eventually get, the FDA's role should ultimately be about what it should be about which is regulating the manufacture and ingredients of the juice, dictating certain labeling requirements, and clamping down on unproven claims."

Yes, personally I totally agree with all of this...its fun playing around with ideas though

"4. The basic math exercise was simply me playing with your 20 cent figure to show how significant of a reduction in retail pricing can occur with just a small reduction in manufacturer prices (or, by implication, manufacturing costs). The purpose of which was to emphasize the significantly worthwhile objective of minimizing the labor and materials required to produce the juice-filled disposables."

ok, gotchya


"5. I suppose that it is possible that I am completely out of touch with how most people see the matter, but, to me, the mentioning of prices you have paid at a supplier other than the one in whose forum you were posting was so patently inappropriate as to not even be debatable. For someone with as much business experience as you have claimed, I'm quite surprised that you don't seem to agree."

This a public forum housed by another public forum where typically (and elsewhere all over the internet) all things related to forum topics should be allowed (and usually are) for open discussion. If I am mistaken about this being a public forum and have violated any TOS then my sincere apologies to both Ben and the Mods at ECF...but as I said...some of my pricing examples have already been stated by others on this very forum (vapornine's) and I was merely reiterating to some extent.

There was no malicious intent by discussing simple prices and no names were mentioned other than the manufacturer...this is a forum for retail stores online...its common to find all sorts of talk about pricing, especially when it comes to lower prices found around town...its part of the territory and nothing is unusual or inapropriate about it IMO, especially if you take into consideration the context in which it was brought up in to begin with, which was to simply aid in proving a point.

Besides...It's not as if I actually pointed to someone else's site address and said "hey come here and get it 40% cheaper NOW" lol. I simply stated prices are starting to drop on the carts , but never said WHERE you'll notice

Make no mistake about it, I like Ben just fine as a seller and will continue to buy from him as long as pricing and service stay competative.

 

[syntaxevasion]

Hi Hangar, I've been quoted much higher prices for the Neb carts (20 cents..in my dreams ) from several different sources .. If you could forward those e-mails maybe I can use these to get a better price. I really think it must've been a mistake on their end and even with a copy in hand I'm pretty certain they'd just say "sorry, we made a mistake..the real price is ___"

 

[Hangar]

Hiya Ben...I have an email here from Annie at szkanger@gmail in which she confirms the price noted in this thread...i can also attach the spread sheet someone else has sent me from kanger...would you like them both?

Yea im starting to think i was simply lied to as ive spoken to another seller who is also paying more...maybe this is their way (kanger's way) of sparking interest, i dunno. Its also a good way to piss people off IMO, hehe.

I wouldnt have said it if it didnt really happen of course as im a very straight forward honest kind of person...i dont lie.

I doubt it will help you as youve said, but who knows?

**EDIT** - oh well, after what's happened in the news I guess its all moot at this point...seems the selling of these things stateside is officially illegal now :-(...i guess all thats left is enforcement but i dont wanna know what the official penalty is going to be for breaking federal law...Im so depressed. oh well, on the brite side itll bring some closeout sales i suppose.