Questions regarding battery saftey

[BrennanElectric]

Greetings fellow vapers! I recently got into RDA builds and mech mods about 3 weeks ago, have done extensive research on battery safety, and ohms law, and how it all works. I've felt very comfortable with what I know and have learned if your going to go sub ohm, not to make your resistance put out more amps than your batteries max continuous discharge rating. The problem I've run into, is people with experience, especially where I'm living are all selling batteries at vape shops, telling you the wrong ratings for them, such as saying the lg he2 is 35 amp, when it's really 20 amp continuous.

What I want to do is go ahead and show you, as professionals with experience, the things people have said to me, and I just want your opinion on them, if they're being stupid for not following battery safety, or if it really is possible to push your batteries to that length without damaging them or yourself. Because so many people just buy the batteries the shops are putting out, and using them on 18650 mechanicals, going as low as .06 ohms, which to my understanding, the only way I'd want to do that after researching battery safety is either using 26650 mods, or dual battery box mods, most likely at 26650.

I went ahead and purchased myself 2 lg he2 batteries, and 2 sony vtc 5's on ebay.

I won't post names, but these people will be quotations of things said in some groups I'm in on facebook, and I just want to know if it's ok to do what these people are doing, or if that's a big no no!

Guy 1: LG HE2: Mines been testing out at 30 amps. I love these lg batteries. I run gnarly coils on mine with no problems. Just play it safe around .2/.4 ohms at the lowest and you should be fine. Happy vaping!
^The continous discharge is 20 amps by looking at these specs

Guy 2: I personally wouldn't get sony the imren batteries are proven better than sony pluse sony are hard to find and way marked up right now
put a post up saying what do people think about imren batteries and see what you get lol put it on this page and the old utah vape & trade
I can run my red imren batteries for about 3 hours in a hex ohm 50 watt box at .5. I love these imren batteries, I've never had them vent on me even on a .08 cloud build.

^After he posted that, I posted a stress test chart proving the sonys are better and he still didn't believe me
so then I said damn you're a brave soul, that's 52 amps.how often do you run those batteries below 0.1 ohm, if you've done it many times and they run fine, I may try it, just to see them clouds lol but I've read too much .... online about what can happen if you push above the given numbers provided, that I'm now conditioned to only build below Continuous discharge ratings.
To which he said, I haven't done it too much myself, but one of the guys that works at vape affliction runs a lot of his all day vapes that low on this battery. No issues thus far

Guy 3: This one has to do with 26650s, from what I've learned I feel like if you have a 26650 you should definitely be able to run a .17 ohm, and thought with a sony vtc 5 you could do the same seeing as its only 24 amps.
This is what he said, Just about an hour ago I went to my local vape shop. The guys are very knowledgeable helpful and have almost all of the answers. The build I was using was .17 ohms on a 26650 and the button on my mod was getting hot but the battery was just a little warm. I asked lou (the guy that runs the store) and he said, and a few others agreed, that the build was just to low for the battery and it was unsafe. If you ask my personal not super experienced opinion, I have built some pretty low ohm builds and used them on 26650s but I am careful. When I feel my mod get warm I take the battery out to cool it. Lou says I'm insane, he may be right but it's just so freaking fun lol.

Guy 4: Samsung 25r at .15 is king for me. Hits like a tank and lasts up to 8 hours constantly vaping. If it's at .15, according to the steam engine calculator that would only last

Estimated total runtime	6	min
Estimated # puffs @ 5 sec puffs	73

so how in the hell would that last 8 hours? It just doesn't add up to me..

Guy 5: I run my samsungs at
.13 for my adv. it's has a 20a limit and I push it past 30. Never ever gets warm. I know people that have pushed samsung 25r's to .03 and they're fine. The sag isn't worth it at all though. .08 is kind of the breaking point for me. Anything more and it's pointless in my eyes. You're not actually getting the wattage at that resistance. One pull puts it below 4.2

^To me this is crazy, from what I've learned about all of this, this just doesn't add up




Guy 6: I use efest 35 amps and mxjo which are both lg he2 rewraps. Alot of my builds are .17 or .2ish and thats pulling between 25 and 30 amps. I have built a .06 before and that was pulling 70 amps on a vtc5 and believe me the battery got warm but never vented

So that is all I have, sorry for such a long post, but for those of you willing to reply, I will greatly appreciate it.
I'm only looking for clarifcation, and am I missing something in the vaping world? I studied extensively so I would be safe and prevent bad things from happening, so we can keep vaping alive and legal.

The rates that these people are pushing these seem so crazy to me from what I've learned, I just want to know as a beginner, asking all of you legendary experienced vapers, if these people are doing it wrong, or they'll be ok, because I"m missing something? Lol anyways thanks for reading!

 

[Lessifer]

I am by no means an expert, and I don't even do super low sub ohm builds, but here's what I've picked up so far.

A lot of companies post a Max Pulse Discharge, which is usually substantially higher than the continuous discharge. The problem with a Pulse rating is, no one defines what a pulse is, is it 1 second, 5 seconds, 5 milliseconds, I've seen different people say it's any one of those.

As for max continuous discharge, manufacturers problem leave some head room in their specs, as a CYA, but I wouldn't bet my own safety on that, so I leave my own.

For those that say: "I've run this battery at 50A and never had one vent." Well, I've driven drunk a few times and never had an accident, that doesn't make it a good idea.

 

[BrennanElectric]

I am by no means an expert, and I don't even do super low sub ohm builds, but here's what I've picked up so far.

A lot of companies post a Max Pulse Discharge, which is usually substantially higher than the continuous discharge. The problem with a Pulse rating is, no one defines what a pulse is, is it 1 second, 5 seconds, 5 milliseconds, I've seen different people say it's any one of those.

As for max continuous discharge, manufacturers problem leave some head room in their specs, as a CYA, but I wouldn't bet my own safety on that, so I leave my own.

For those that say: "I've run this battery at 50A and never had one vent." Well, I've driven drunk a few times and never had an accident, that doesn't make it a good idea.

It definitely makes sense, and I understand the pulse rating, but yeah I don't know how long of a draw that pulse rating is.. all in all, I don't want to do super low subohm builds on a daily basis, but the idea makes me curious and I want to see what kind of clouds it makes, just to say I experienced it, but with my sony I suppose I will just build at .17 at the lowest, that's about 24 amps, but yeah, as you can see kind sir, there is a big majority of people who vape in utah, that aren't part of this forum nor the online community of being safe about it, they just go with what the shops tell them and just blindly fire them at such high amps, even though battery safety says DONT DO THAT. Makes me shake my head in confusion of what makes them ok with it, or if they've even researched this stuff at all ya know?

 

[edyle]

A lot of the numbers won't add up when you don't account for voltage drop on the mod.

 

[Lessifer]

It definitely makes sense, and I understand the pulse rating, but yeah I don't know how long of a draw that pulse rating is.. all in all, I don't want to do super low subohm builds on a daily basis, but the idea makes me curious and I want to see what kind of clouds it makes, just to say I experienced it, but with my sony I suppose I will just build at .17 at the lowest, that's about 24 amps, but yeah, as you can see kind sir, there is a big majority of people who vape in utah, that aren't part of this forum nor the online community of being safe about it, they just go with what the shops tell them and just blindly fire them at such high amps, even though battery safety says DONT DO THAT. Makes me shake my head in confusion of what makes them ok with it, or if they've even researched this stuff at all ya know?

I would chalk most of it up to ignorance, and the feeling of being young and immortal. I think most of the guys probably know just enough to be dangerous. Like they know that a battery says Max Pulse is 60A, but they don't know that no one know what that "pulse" is. Or they know something that they learned from someone, who learned it from someone else, who learned it from reddit. In the age of the internet, the information is at your fingertips, but people tend to not go past the first or second layer. I've met people like that, and when you try to explain the safety aspects of it, they either know someone, or have run a build that low themselves and have never had a problem.

It's not like going over the Amp limit guarantees the battery will vent, it just makes it much more likely to happen. In the end, we all have to decide our own comfort zones.

 

[BrennanElectric]

A lot of the numbers won't add up when you don't account for voltage drop on the mod.

I'm reading up a little bit on voltage drop, but care to explain more? So the mod and the atty itself have a resistance and cause the battery to have a voltage drop? So you're not ever actually hitting 4.2 volts on your first draw? or what exactly does it mean?

 

[Lessifer]

A lot of the numbers won't add up when you don't account for voltage drop on the mod.

I've been meaning to read up more on this. I understand the internal resistance of the mod and atty part, but I thought you were always drawing the full amps from the battery, it just wouldn't be supplying the full voltage to the coil. Like I said though, I haven't actually done the homework in this area.

 

[BrennanElectric]

I've been meaning to read up more on this. I understand the internal resistance of the mod and atty part, but I thought you were always drawing the full amps from the battery, it just wouldn't be supplying the full voltage to the coil. Like I said though, I haven't actually done the homework in this area.

Me neither, that is one part of this I didn't even realize existed until he mentioned it, so I would definitely love clarification as to what that affects

Like you said, I would think you were always drawing the full amps from battery, and the amount of volts to the atty would just drop, but if the entire mod cuts the battery voltage, then it's something completely different. I will read up on it a different day when I have more time, but if Edyle has anything about it he could explain in a way that makes sense that would be awesome.

 

[edyle]

I'm reading up a little bit on voltage drop, but care to explain more? So the mod and the atty itself have a resistance and cause the battery to have a voltage drop? So you're not ever actually hitting 4.2 volts on your first draw? or what exactly does it mean?

Any piece of metal has some resistance and if you have a mod and are able to check the resistance of the mod itself, it might have a resistance for example of 0.1 ohm;
If you put a 0.1 ohm coil on than and a 4 volt battery, at least 2 volts gets used on the mod, and then only 2 volts left on the coil; in this case the voltage drop is 2 volts.

On the other hand if you use a 1 ohm coil, your voltage drop is only going be be about 0.4 volts, and you'll get 3.6 volts accross your coil.

 

[edyle]

I've been meaning to read up more on this. I understand the internal resistance of the mod and atty part, but I thought you were always drawing the full amps from the battery, it just wouldn't be supplying the full voltage to the coil. Like I said though, I haven't actually done the homework in this area.

No; the lower the load (coil ohms) that you put on the battery, the more amps you can draw from the battery.

 

[edyle]

Me neither, that is one part of this I didn't even realize existed until he mentioned it, so I would definitely love clarification as to what that affects

Like you said, I would think you were always drawing the full amps from battery, and the amount of volts to the atty would just drop, but if the entire mod cuts the battery voltage, then it's something completely different. I will read up on it a different day when I have more time, but if Edyle has anything about it he could explain in a way that makes sense that would be awesome.

What holds constant is the total battery voltage.
When you connect a load to the battery, the voltage lost by the mod/battery (voltage drop), plus the voltage that ends up accross the coil, is equal to the battery voltage.

So if your battery is at 4 volts
and you have a loss resistance (resistance of mod + battery) of 0.1 ohm
and a coil of 0.3 ohms
you end up with a voltage drop of 1 volt, and 3 volts ends up accross the coil

 

[Norrin]

If I was crazy enough to go super low I would never ever ever use 26650 batteries, it's insane running these super low builds with 18650s but you have to be a special kind of crazy to do it with 26650s. If an 18650 goes critical you will probably get hurt, but it depends on where you throw it, if a 26650 goes it could easily kill you or anyone around you. Some people did tests on batteries going into thermal meltdown and they did it in an oven so as to ensure that it went and didn't just vent a little, the 18650 broke the mod and made a mess, the 26650 broke the mod, the safety cage and the industrial oven. Play safe at least get a dual 18650 mod, but really just do sensible builds.

 

[Lessifer]

No; the lower the load (coil ohms) that you put on the battery, the more amps you can draw from the battery.

Right, no, I know you're not always pulling 35A from a 35A battery. I meant, if you fire a 1ohm coil at full charge(4.2) I thought the battery was still providing 4.2A even though the coil is not getting 4.2v.

 

[edyle]

Right, no, I know you're not always pulling 35A from a 35A battery. I meant, if you fire a 1ohm coil at full charge(4.2) I thought the battery was still providing 4.2A even though the coil is not getting 4.2v.

Yes the total voltage of 4.2V is still being provided, but not all of it ends up accross the coil; some of it (that is what is the 'voltage drop') is used up by the battery and the mod itself; the lower the ohms on the coil, the bigger the voltage drop.

V = I x R
I is the current flowing in the circuit;
if V is the total voltage, then R is the TOTAL resistance in the circuit, which means the coil, the battery itself and any resistances introduced by the mod, especially at the contact points.

 

[BrennanElectric]

Right, no, I know you're not always pulling 35A from a 35A battery. I meant, if you fire a 1ohm coil at full charge(4.2) I thought the battery was still providing 4.2A even though the coil is not getting 4.2v.

Yes the total voltage of 4.2V is still being provided, but not all of it ends up accross the coil; some of it (that is what is the 'voltage drop') is used up by the battery and the mod itself; the lower the ohms on the coil, the bigger the voltage drop.

V = I x R
I is the current flowing in the circuit;
if V is the total voltage, then R is the TOTAL resistance in the circuit, which means the coil, the battery itself and any resistances introduced by the mod, especially at the contact points.

OK but now I'm super confused, let's say you have a 20 amp battery, and you run a 0.1 ohm coil, isn't your battery still putting out 42 amps which is way above the max continuous discharge, I don't understand what voltage drop has to do with that unless you are saying that if you go to a 0.1 ohm build only half the volts go to the coil, therefore only half the amps get used on the battery, which therefore makes it safer to go low ohms, and I don't think that's what your saying, I get there's a voltage drop, but where does that factor in to all of this and what exactly does it physically affect? Or are you saying account for voltage drop, then do the math say it's 0.1 resistance on your mod, and 0.1 on your atty so therefore your only using 2 volts so you'd do 2/0.1 instead of 4?

 

[BrennanElectric]

The way he explains it seems to point if your ohms on your atty is anywhere close to the resistance of the battery it is more dangerous I, see all these people doing it, but honestly I already get awesome clouds and amazing flavor at 0. 4 ohms, if anything I'll get an ipv v3 with a 1 ohm build and if I want clouds I'll just up the wattage

 

[edyle]

OK but now I'm super confused, let's say you have a 20 amp battery, and you run a 0.1 ohm coil, isn't your battery still putting out 42 amps which is way above the max continuous discharge, I don't understand what voltage drop has to do with that unless you are saying that if you go to a 0.1 ohm build only half the volts go to the coil, therefore only half the amps get used on the battery, which therefore makes it safer to go low ohms, and I don't think that's what your saying, I get there's a voltage drop, but where does that factor in to all of this and what exactly does it physically affect? Or are you saying account for voltage drop, then do the math say it's 0.1 resistance on your mod, and 0.1 on your atty so therefore your only using 2 volts so you'd do 2/0.1 instead of 4?

1: If you have a 4.2 volt battery and you connect a 0.1 ohm coil, yes the coil will try to draw 42 amps from the battery.
A 20 amp battery will not be able to deliver.

2: If your mod has a resistance of 0.1 ohm, and you connect a 0.1 ohm coil, that is a total of 0.2 ohms;
The current works out to be 4.2/0.2 = 21 amps.
Again the 20 amp battery will not be able to deliver.

3: btw I was not trying to say anything about making it safer to go low ohms if that's the impression you got.

4: I was trying to say that the lower your ohm coil, the bigger the voltage drop is;
So when you use higher resistance coils, the numbers are easy, and you don't have to worry about voltage drop.
But the lower you go in resistance, the more important voltage drop becomes.

 

[BrennanElectric]

OK but now I'm super confused, let's say you have a 20 amp battery, and you run a 0.1 ohm coil, isn't your battery still putting out 42 amps which is way above the max continuous discharge, I don't understand what voltage drop has to do with that unless you are saying that if you go to a 0.1 ohm build only half the volts go to the coil, therefore only half the amps get used on the battery, which therefore makes it safer to go low ohms, and I don't think that's what your saying, I get there's a voltage drop, but where does that factor in to all of this and what exactly does it physically affect? Or are you saying account for voltage drop, then do the math say it's 0.1 resistance on your mod, and 0.1 on your atty so therefore your only using 2 volts so you'd do 2/0.1 instead of 4?

1: If you have a 4.2 volt battery and you connect a 0.1 ohm coil, yes the coil will try to draw 42 amps from the battery.
A 20 amp battery will not be able to deliver.

2: If your mod has a resistance of 0.1 ohm, and you connect a 0.1 ohm coil, that is a total of 0.2 ohms;
The current works out to be 4.2/0.2 = 21 amps.
Again the 20 amp battery will not be able to deliver.

3: btw I was not trying to say anything about making it safer to go low ohms if that's the impression you got.

4: I was trying to say that the lower your ohm coil, the bigger the voltage drop is;
So when you use higher resistance coils, the numbers are easy, and you don't have to worry about voltage drop.
But the lower you go in resistance, the more important voltage drop becomes.

What about the batteries internal resistance, do you add that into the equation as well? So with all of this information, I definitely don't think i care much for going anything below 0. 25 ohms, so your true resistance is figured by all resistances added together and decided by your battery charge? Because I've read some people add in battery resistance as well.

 

[BrennanElectric]

Right, no, I know you're not always pulling 35A from a 35A battery. I meant, if you fire a 1ohm coil at full charge(4.2) I thought the battery was still providing 4.2A even though the coil is not getting 4.2v.

Yes the total voltage of 4.2V is still being provided, but not all of it ends up accross the coil; some of it (that is what is the 'voltage drop') is used up by the battery and the mod itself; the lower the ohms on the coil, the bigger the voltage drop.

V = I x R
I is the current flowing in the circuit;
if V is the total voltage, then R is the TOTAL resistance in the circuit, which means the coil, the battery itself and any resistances introduced by the mod, especially at the contact points.

So what does voltage drop do? Just make it so it doesn't produce as much power once you hit too low of ohms? So if you have a little higher subohms you get more power to the atomizer which in turn heats it up faster? Or what exactly does it do? So you'd preferably wanna build higher than the resistance of your battery and mod so you get more power to the atomizer each draw?

 

[edyle]

What about the batteries internal resistance, do you add that into the equation as well? So with all of this information, I definitely don't think i care much for going anything below 0. 25 ohms, so your true resistance is figured by all resistances added together and decided by your battery charge? Because I've read some people add in battery resistance as well.

Yes the battery has an internal resistance;
in fact the easy guestimate for the internal resistance of the battery is to use the amp rating of the battery;
so with a 4 volt battery rated at 20 amps, resistance works out to 0.2 ohms; the battery internal resistance has to be less than 0.2 ohm otherwise it could not possibly deliver 20 amps.

Yes the total resistance in a circuit depends on all the resistances combined.

When people are going down to that level like 0.25 ohms, battery resistance can become important;
but usually its the mod resistance is the bigger factor.