Questions to Cloud9

[Mazinny]

Hi Lisa,

I will ask the obvious question. There has been speculation on some threads, but i will ask you directly :

What led you to publish the results of your lab tests on 5P liquids ( with as much detail as you are able to provide considering the legal situation ).

Thank You.

 

[Lisaf01]

Hi Lisa,

I will ask the obvious question. There has been speculation on some threads, but i will ask you directly :

What led you to publish the results of your lab tests on 5P liquids ( with as much detail as you are able to provide considering the legal situation ).

Thank You.

We removed the product from sale the moment we received the test results from the lab, and immediately started fielding questions about why it had suddenly disappeared from our site. Running as a separate sideline from the five pawns issue in particular, we were preparing an article to explain our testing protocol, and the actions we've been taking for the last few years. We felt it was important that the article was clear that this protocol had real purpose and that we were prepared to refuse to stock liquids, and stop stocking liquids if at any time they failed to meet our "diketone free" requirements and that we had already done so on multiple occasions in the past.
We did not name the actual products we'd removed from sale at this point, which of course only lead to requests to disclose which liquids we had removed for this reason.
By this time, nearly 8 weeks had passed since we first received the Five Pawns results, and notified them. No action had been taken, no public disclosure had been made, and they would not discuss the matter with us in writing, apart from authorising their UK distributor to accept the return of all the product for a complete refund.
All throughout this time, we'd been uncomfortably keeping this information to ourselves. We received advice from several industry experts including Dr Farsalinos, and all advice was to publish what we had, because it was in the public interest.
So, in response to this clamour for information, and in accordance with our discomfort at keeping the information quiet up to this point, we named all those liquids we had removed because they contained or were suspected of containing either Diacetyl, Acetyl Propionyl, or both, and the list was not limited to Five Pawns liquids.
Most of the rest of what happened is common knowledge.

 

[AstroTurf]

How did they pass your tests in the first place to become a product you stock?


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[Lisaf01]

During several months of negotiations and whilst they were making changes to their label to make it suitable for the UK market (which their UK distributor hadn't raised with them), we repeatedly asked for test results, and stated that we didn't stock liquids that had tested positive for these compounds. They refused to supply results, and indeed never divulged that they had any. It was at this point that they could have exited the deal without anyone being any the wiser.
We loved the product, and believed that they must have done their due diligence, and trusted that our own tests would just be a formality and were utterly and completely shocked when we received the results. There were other factors that meant we couldn't actually wait for the test results before commencing sales, which I won't go into on here, because it affects other distribution relationships, but suffice it to say, we will never again place a new liquid on the market without first having test results from a reputable lab in our hands.

 

[AstroTurf]

Your past actions speak more loudly to me, than do your current words.

Thanks for answering my questions.

Jim


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[Lisaf01]

Would you care to elaborate?

 

[SomeTexan]

Would you care to elaborate?

He is a 5 pawns fanboy trying to stir up some feces. After watching 5 pawns get torn into, he has to insult the people that exposed them.

 

[Lisaf01]

For reference, this is not a thread to attack anyone. This thread, like the Five Pawns thread, is for you guys to ask us questions, and for us to to our best to answer as fully as we can. Posting cryptic references is not asking questions, and neither is it helpful to anyone reading.

 

[AstroTurf]

Where can the NJOY test results that Y'all performed be found?

Thanks, Jim

 

[Lisaf01]

We haven't had a need to test the NJOY liquids ourselves because their distributor provided results when we requested them, before we brought the product into stock. We haven't yet uploaded them to the site, but if you send us an email, we'll gladly forward them to you.

 

[Mazinny]

Where can the NJOY test results that Y'all performed be found?

Thanks, Jim

They are available on the Vaporshark site ( tested by VS ) and also on PBusardo's site ( tested by Njoy ).

 

[Lisaf01]

We're very happy to answer genuine questions, from those who are open-minded and really want to know more about how we operate or to clear up any confusion folks have. However, it goes against the spirit of the thread, and indeed our entire ethos to entertain those that are here merely to try to catch us out in some way or dig up some imaginary dirt.

 

[AstroTurf]

Thanks All!

I'll have a look.

Jim

 

[AstroTurf]

We're very happy to answer genuine questions, from those who are open-minded and really want to know more about how we operate or to clear up any confusion folks have. However, it goes against the spirit of the thread, and indeed our entire ethos to entertain those that are here merely to try to catch us out in some way or dig up some imaginary dirt.

I have another one, not juice related...

When I see a price on your website for a product. How do I figure the price for a USA Purchaser?

Thanks, Jim

 

[Lisaf01]

Excellent question. First, to see the ex-VAT (sales tax) prices, you'll need to register and logon to an account so the site knows you're outside the EU. This will also happen at checkout, but it aids shopping decisions if you can see the actual price before you purchase. Then, when you checkout, if you use PayPal, you will see the conversion before you complete checkout, or if you pay by card, it's handled by your card purchaser. The exchange rates obviously fluctuate often, but it's usually something around 1.5 dollars to the pound.

 

[AstroTurf]

Excellent question. First, to see the ex-VAT (sales tax) prices, you'll need to register and logon to an account so the site knows you're outside the EU. This will also happen at checkout, but it aids shopping decisions if you can see the actual price before you purchase. Then, when you checkout, if you use PayPal, you will see the conversion before you complete checkout, or if you pay by card, it's handled by your card purchaser. The exchange rates obviously fluctuate often, but it's usually something around 1.5 dollars to the pound.

The ex-Vat was my biggest concern.

Now that you have shown me how to see my price, I will order.

You have been most professional, and on my radar for some time now.

Thanks again, Jim

 

[Lisaf01]

Thanks Jim, just be sure you definitely enter your country and see that the prices adjust (it's a considerable adjustment as VAT is 20% here). Then multiply the total by 1.5 to get a broad idea of the cost in US$.

 

[Lisaf01]

Forgot to say, many things over here are more expensive than they are in the US, because we also have to pay quite large duties on import, and the other burdens of operating a business in this country are considerable. My husband and co-owner is American and he's still shocked by the cost of doing business over here (not to mention the weather).

 

[stevegmu]

You should pop over to Prague for a long weekend. The weather is usually beautiful, and it's such a short inexpensive flight from the UK. The pound is also quite strong against the koruna...

 

[Jman8]

We removed the product from sale the moment we received the test results from the lab, and immediately started fielding questions about why it had suddenly disappeared from our site. Running as a separate sideline from the Five Pawns issue in particular, we were preparing an article to explain our testing protocol, and the actions we've been taking for the last few years. We felt it was important that the article was clear that this protocol had real purpose and that we were prepared to refuse to stock liquids, and stop stocking liquids if at any time they failed to meet our "diketone free" requirements and that we had already done so on multiple occasions in the past.
We did not name the actual products we'd removed from sale at this point, which of course only lead to requests to disclose which liquids we had removed for this reason.
By this time, nearly 8 weeks had passed since we first received the Five Pawns results, and notified them. No action had been taken, no public disclosure had been made, and they would not discuss the matter with us in writing, apart from authorising their UK distributor to accept the return of all the product for a complete refund.
All throughout this time, we'd been uncomfortably keeping this information to ourselves. We received advice from several industry experts including Dr Farsalinos, and all advice was to publish what we had, because it was in the public interest.

I find this hard to agree with, and am curious what other industry experts were advising this. Dr. F. does crowd funding study and doesn't release specifics, but thinks you ought to release specifics about a vendor who you are not in contact with?

I don't get how any expert would not see this as "trouble ahead?"

Clearly hindsight shows it to be as such, and clearly the experts advice was, in a legal sense, misguided.

So, in response to this clamour for information, and in accordance with our discomfort at keeping the information quiet up to this point, we named all those liquids we had removed because they contained or were suspected of containing either Diacetyl, Acetyl Propionyl, or both, and the list was not limited to Five Pawns liquids.
Most of the rest of what happened is common knowledge.

The issue is the specific lab results, which are currently disputed. I recognize you stand by your testing and hope you acknowledge that 5P stands by theirs. I get that you were uncomfortable, but not sure if you've explained why publish the lab results? What the lab results convey, in general, is the information that is seemingly the source of your discomfort and what seemingly consumers would be most interested in, rather than the specifics. Cause now the public is none the wiser, really. So, my question is, why the specific lab results rather than the general information (along lines) of, "these products, which we have recently had independently tested, contain compounds that we refuse to offer to our consumers?"

It's too bad it had to go to where it did, but it is what it is. Personally, I see you both responsible for what occurred, and again, do not see consumers as really all that much wiser.

I really do wish you the best going forward (along with 5P) and it is good that lessons are being learned.

suffice it to say, we will never again place a new liquid on the market without first having test results from a reputable lab in our hands.