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Lisaf01

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    I'll ask one.

    Are you able, at this time, to Openly Discuss any of the Details regarding the events leading up to the Testing of Five Pawns e-Liquids?

    If you are Not, I Understand.

    Hi zoiDman, and welcome.
    We will do our best to answer any questions about this matter fully, but please bear in mind we are still under threat of legal action, and so will be cautious, and I would hope you won't hold it against us if we're less chatty in these circumstances than we would ordinarily be.
     

    Lisaf01

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      Hello. I am actually looking for a vendor who sells Halo e-liquid and ships to the Czech Republic. Shipping to CR from the US is crazy expensive. Is there any chance you will carry the Halo line in the near future? Thanks, Steve
      Hi Steve, We hadn't considered stocking the Halo line specifically, but we would certainly be prepared to look at it if there was demand for it here, and if it met all our requirements.
       
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      stevegmu

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        Hi Steve, We hadn't considered stocking the Halo line specifically, but we would certainly be prepared to look at it if there was demand for it here, and if it met all our requirements.

        Ok, great. Europe is ready for Halo e-liquids I am sure. Everyone who has tried my vape has liked it- from Londoners to Bulgarians to Czechs to Slovaks and Romanians, but I can never recommend a European vendor...
         

        zoiDman

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          Hi zoiDman, and welcome.
          We will do our best to answer any questions about this matter fully, but please bear in mind we are still under threat of legal action, and so will be cautious, and I would hope you won't hold it against us if we're less chatty in these circumstances than we would ordinarily be.

          I completely Understand your Inability to be candid regarding the Events that have occurred.

          And I believe when the Lawyers start to Dictate what can and Can Not be said about something like this, that we All Lose.
           
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          Lisaf01

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            Ok, great. Europe is ready for Halo e-liquids I am sure. Everyone who has tried my vape has liked it- from Londoners to Bulgarians to Czechs to Slovaks and Romanians, but I can never recommend a European vendor...
            Certainly many US manufacturers aren't ready or willing to modify their packaging to meet EU packaging and labelling requirements, so this might be part of the problem.
             

            Lisaf01

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              I completely Understand you Inability to be candid regarding the Events that have occurred.

              And I believe when the Lawyers start to Dictate what can and Can Not be said about something like this, that we All Lose.
              As I said, we will do our best to answer any specific questions we are asked.
              Absolutely agree with you about lawyers getting involved often causing more tension and confusion than there needs to be.
               
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              Siam Diesel

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                Hello. I am actually looking for a vendor who sells Halo e-liquid and ships to the Czech Republic.
                Steve, have a look at Pink Mule in Spain...they carry Halo and ship world-wide.

                Apologies, Lisa...I know this is your sub-forum; hope you don't mind since you don't yet carry Halo.
                 
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                SomeTexan

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                  Hi zoiDman, and welcome.
                  We will do our best to answer any questions about this matter fully, but please bear in mind we are still under threat of legal action, and so will be cautious, and I would hope you won't hold it against us if we're less chatty in these circumstances than we would ordinarily be.
                  Please don't be scared of 5 pawns' threats. Companies like you that are looking out for the vaping community help us avoid government regulation. Companies like 5 pawns and their fanboys make us all look bad. They can't sue you for posting the results of tests done by a real lab. They could possibly go after the lab, but that would be fruitless and a huge waste of their money.
                   

                  Lisaf01

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                    Steve, have a look at Pink Mule in Spain...they carry Halo and ship world-wide.

                    Apologies, Lisa...I know this is your sub-forum; hope you don't mind.
                    Don't mind at all, happy you were able to advise where Steve can find liquids we don't stock. :)
                     

                    stevegmu

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                      Certainly many US manufacturers aren't ready or willing to modify their packaging to meet EU packaging and labelling requirements, so this might be part of the problem.

                      I'm pretty sure they would pass no problems. Halo is sold in the EU in limited capacities, however. I don't think anyone carries their full line.
                       

                      zoiDman

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                        As I said, we will do our best to answer any specific questions we are asked.
                        Absolutely agree with you about lawyers getting involved often causing more tension and confusion than there needs to be.

                        Perhaps here is a Question you can talk to.

                        What does Cloud 9 Consider to be Appropriate ppm levels for Diacetyl and Acetyl Propionyl in the e-Liquids that Cloud 9 sells.

                        And do you see the levels that someone such as the Electronic Cigarette Trade Association of Canada (ECTA) has set for "No Disclosure", "Disclosure" and "Fail" as Reasonable?

                        ---

                        "The ECTA standard is a non-detection for these elements. However, there are a couple of threshold levels for both Acetyl Propionyl and Diacetyl into which a result may fall.

                        • Non-Detection of Pentanedione and Diacetyl is the ECTA standard to which all members must strive to achieve
                        • < 22 µg/ml for Diacetyl and < 45 µg/ml for Acetyl Propionyl no disclosure - This is a "caution" threshold, though while recommended, is not required for disclosure. Members are required to work towards removing the cause of the compound. Levels in this range are most often attributed to cross-contamination.
                        • < 100 µg/ml disclosure - This "caution" threshold requires disclosure to consumers if the eliquid remains on the market, and a plan to replace the flavorant with an alternative. Disclosure is required on a website (if applicable), in a Retail Location (if applicable), and optionally on the label of the product (pending stock level depletion)
                        • > 100 µg/ml (ppm) indicates a "FAIL" - This is above the upper limit and beyond ECTA standards. If an E-Liquid result shows higher than this level the member must immediately stop sale of that product and either discontinue or return the product to their shelves only after the E-Liquid is reformulated and re-tested to show that it has been corrected."

                        Electronic Cigarette Trade Association (ECTA) of Canada
                         
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                        stevegmu

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                          Steve, have a look at Pink Mule in Spain...they carry Halo and ship world-wide.

                          Apologies, Lisa...I know this is your sub-forum; hope you don't mind since you don't yet carry Halo.

                          Thanks, looks like they actually carry the full line of Halo flavors...
                           
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                          Lisaf01

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                            Please don't be scared of 5 pawns' threats. Companies like you that are looking out for the vaping community help us avoid government regulation. Companies like 5 pawns and their fanboys make us all look bad. They can't sue you for posting the results of tests done by a real lab. They could possibly go after the lab, but that would be fruitless and a huge waste of their money.
                            Hi SomeTexan, we're not scared, it's just always prudent to be cautious in these situations. Companies can sue for anything, and both sides end up losing, regardless of who wins.
                             

                            Lisaf01

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                              Perhaps here is a Question you can talk to.

                              What does Cloud 9 Consider to be Appropriate ppm levels for Diacetyl and Acetyl Propionyl in the e-Liquids that Cloud 9 sells.
                              In the past, we made it our policy not to stock any liquid that had ever tested positive for any level of DA/AP. We've always made this extremely clear to manufacturers.
                              After lengthy research, and discussions with Dr Farsalinos and others, we have taken a view that we may consider stocking liquids in the future that contain a tiny amount of naturally occurring Diacetyl if it was completely unavoidable to manufacture a particular flavour without it, but 25ppm would be our max. If we did so, we would clearly state this information alongside the liquids, with an explanation.

                              And do you see the levels that someone such as the Electronic Cigarette Trade Association of Canada (ECTA) has set for "No Disclosure", "Disclosure" and "Fail" as Reasonable?

                              ---

                              "The ECTA standard is a non-detection for these elements. However, there are a couple of threshold levels for both Acetyl Propionyl and Diacetyl into which a result may fall.

                              • Non-Detection of Pentanedione and Diacetyl is the ECTA standard to which all members must strive to achieve
                              • < 22 µg/ml for Diacetyl and < 45 µg/ml for Acetyl Propionyl no disclosure - This is a "caution" threshold, though while recommended, is not required for disclosure. Members are required to work towards removing the cause of the compound. Levels in this range are most often attributed to cross-contamination.
                              • < 100 µg/ml disclosure - This "caution" threshold requires disclosure to consumers if the eliquid remains on the market, and a plan to replace the flavorant with an alternative. Disclosure is required on a website (if applicable), in a Retail Location (if applicable), and optionally on the label of the product (pending stock level depletion)
                              • > 100 µg/ml (ppm) indicates a "FAIL" - This is above the upper limit and beyond ECTA standards. If an E-Liquid result shows higher than this level the member must immediately stop sale of that product and either discontinue or return the product to their shelves only after the E-Liquid is reformulated and re-tested to show that it has been corrected."

                              Electronic Cigarette Trade Association (ECTA) of Canada

                              I'd say their position is quite reasonable, as long as they also require their members to explain the policy and the reasons for it. Our policy is different, which is not to say it's better because every company must decide on their own position in this as in all areas. It's not up to any of us to decide what people should vape, but it's critically important that consumers are given ALL the information they need to make a fully informed choice.
                               

                              zoiDman

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                                In the past, we made it our policy not to stock any liquid that had ever tested positive for any level of DA/AP. We've always made this extremely clear to manufacturers.
                                After lengthy research, and discussions with Dr Farsalinos and others, we have taken a view that we may consider stocking liquids in the future that contain a tiny amount of naturally occurring Diacetyl if it was completely unavoidable to manufacture a particular flavour without it, but 25ppm would be our max. If we did so, we would clearly state this information alongside the liquids, with an explanation.



                                I'd say their position is quite reasonable, as long as they also require their members to explain the policy and the reasons for it. Our policy is different, which is not to say it's better because every company must decide on their own position in this as in all areas. It's not up to any of us to decide what people should vape, but it's critically important that consumers are given ALL the information they need to make a fully informed choice.

                                I couldn't Agree with this More...

                                "It's not up to any of us to decide what people should vape, but it's critically important that consumers are given ALL the information they need to make a fully informed choice."

                                And as someone who has Seen the Initial Concerns / Fervor over Diacetyl years ago, I believe More Awareness needs to be given to Acetyl Propionyl in the Vaping Community.

                                Because having e-Liquids that are Diacetyl Free is Great. But if the Diacetyl is removed Only to be Replaced with High Levels of Acetyl Propionyl, we might not be Accomplishing anything.

                                It would seem that Transparency, Openness and Accountability are 3 Keys for Any OEM to adhere to in letting their Customers make an Informed Choice about what they Choose to put into their Lungs.

                                Unfortunately, I have less of this Instead of more of this from certain OEM(s) in the Last couple of Months. But I suppose this is Something that I need not tell you.
                                 

                                Lisaf01

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                                  zoiDman,
                                  I totally agree with you, and we've been spending a great deal of time attempting to get through to manufacturers about the importance of testing, and correct labelling of their e-liquids but it's largely falling on deaf ears. The response we typically receive is that they don't need to test because the law doesn't require it, and their product is already stocked all over the world and none of the current stockists have asked the questions we're asking. It's massively time-wasting, and very disheartening and is not allowing customers to make fully informed choices.
                                  I think this attitude will change, but these things do take time, and nothing will change without vendors like us and consumers like you, asking these questions and forcing those recalcitrant vendors and manufacturers to listen to our concerns.

                                  As to Diacetyl Vs Acetyl Propionyl, the more or less equal risks have been known about for long enough for any manufacturer who cares about their consumers to test, and either reformulate or be open and honest about their liquid's test results in this regard.
                                   
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