Richer flavor

[Swamee73]

Ok, I have started my DIY process and made 2 recipes so far. I am using multiple flavors and using 60Pg 40VG mix. The two I have made so far taste decent, have GREAT vapor production and have an ok throat hit. What I want more than anything is a full, rich flavor, something akin to House Blend by Copper Creek or Boba's Bounty by AVE.

I was wondering what are the requirements, or determining factors for good throat hit? Rich full flavor?

 

[Levitas]

Well, based on assimilated assumptions, I have drawn a conclusion, truth to be unknown, that Alien Visions utilizes a very large amount of flavoring in Boba's Bounty. Perhaps even upwards of ~50% flavoring, though, there is much debate to the accuracy of these assumptions. The proprietors themselves had admitted, albeit indirectly, to using ~50% flavoring in Boba's Bounty and Gorilla juice. That could, in turn, explain the richness of those particular blends.

As for the House Blend, I've no clue.

So, I guess I'm saying, more flavor = richer flavor. However! There are many, myself included, who believe that given each particular flavoring used, more flavoring could in fact hinder the resulting product, in performance, and/or taste. Trial and error.

 

[graffinfected]

i have been told that adding too much flavor.. will mute other flavors..(obviously) and can even subtract flavor from your finished product.. check out hoosiers blog.. he mentions in one of his steps to creating a juice that too much flavor = no flavor.

BUT, i have to say this has never happened to me.

 

[Swamee73]

I was under the assumption that more VG equals better vapor, but more muted flavor. More PG equals better flavor but less vapor. Consequently more VG makes for a thicker Eliquid which somehow (in my mind) equates to richer flavor....it seems a bit paradoxical but there has to be a "magic" number or sweetspot so to speak....

 

[Levitas]

I think with the PG/VG comparison, you're equating viscosity with richness. This might hold truth for edible beverages and food stuffs, but holds little ground in the world inhaling vapor Though I don't really know the exact chemical rationale behind this, as you put, paradoxical happening, I understand it by a basic concept of VG = thicker, therefore the flavoring is competing with the glycerin more so than PG = thinner, the flavoring has less to compete with.

This is, of course, a very lay way of looking at it But everyone understands, and comprehends things differently. Oh, how fascinating it is, how human beings think, and the individuality of it all. However, that is a conversation saved for drunken ramblings around a bonfire. Back to the topic at hand.

The magic number will always be different. And this is because of multiple elements. The flavoring used, individual tastes, pg/vg ratio, are just some of the mechanisms that add up to the machine that is your goal. You could always take one of those successful blends you've mixed, and make a small bottle with an increased amount of flavoring to test. Personally, I have never seen a recipe in the DIY section here with someone using 50% flavoring. Heck, I might even try it myself, for shins and grins

 

[graffinfected]

the magic number... is "to each his own" its something you have to figure out on your own due to individuality and personal preference.

yes, pg is thin.. so it helps with flavor BUT, just because vg is thick doesnt mean you have to add more flavor.. (IMO) i think that sense its vg, being thicker than pg.. it will take longer for the flavors to date, get married, and have children.. (come together). .. and so this will take what Levitas hates to hear... Steep time.

 

[Swamee73]

I think with the PG/VG comparison, you're equating viscosity with richness. This might hold truth for edible beverages and food stuffs, but holds little ground in the world inhaling vapor Though I don't really know the exact chemical rationale behind this, as you put, paradoxical happening, I understand it by a basic concept of VG = thicker, therefore the flavoring is competing with the glycerin more so than PG = thinner, the flavoring has less to compete with.

This is, of course, a very lay way of looking at it But everyone understands, and comprehends things differently. Oh, how fascinating it is, how human beings think, and the individuality of it all. However, that is a conversation saved for drunken ramblings around a bonfire. Back to the topic at hand.

The magic number will always be different. And this is because of multiple elements. The flavoring used, individual tastes, pg/vg ratio, are just some of the mechanisms that add up to the machine that is your goal. You could always take one of those successful blends you've mixed, and make a small bottle with an increased amount of flavoring to test. Personally, I have never seen a recipe in the DIY section here with someone using 50% flavoring. Heck, I might even try it myself, for shins and grins

I wish I lived closer to St. Louis or you closer to Houston...would love to sit around the bonfire so to speak and pick your brain! You appear to be a wealth of knowledge and a theological giant...both of which I hold in high regard! (your avatar is fitting)

These DO need to steep to really evalute...my problem with patience though, is that I WANT IT NOW! lol I will continue to mix and test and turn theory into practical application.....results to follow.

 

[nnote]

You can add more flavor but you end up with one of four things
1 More flavor
2 Chemical or perfume (the bathroom cleaner juice)
3 Flavor completly drops (had this happen once, went beyond the flavor peak and all a sudden no flavor!)
4 Something totally unexpected for that flavor (my fav DIY is WAY overboard on one flavor and it tastes wonderfull!)

 

[StereoDreamer]

From my experience in home-brewing, baking and cooking, I have to disagree with "Levitas" on the percentage of flavoring.

I think it's not about having a higher percentage of flavoring to base (PV or VG)--it is about having MORE flavors layered up in standard percentages. The drawback to this is that it is VERY difficult to do in small batches.

If you're going to have two flavors in a juice that you are making in 10ml batches, and you're using a 1% flavor percentage, you would add a little less than 0.5ml of each flavor.

But if you are going to use a complicated flavor mix using, say 10 flavors, you're going to use less than 0.1ml of each flavor--which is VERY difficult to do consistantly.

But if you are making the same juice by the liter, you're now talking about using just under 10ml for each flavor, and THAT is a lot easier to measure accurately, and get the flavor adjusted precisely.

So I think that the way that juice manufacturers (like AVE, HHV, an AiV) get their deep, rich flavors--and get them consistantly--is to make them in large batches, using a LOT of different flavorings, but in standard percentages of flavor-to-carrier.

This is how flavoring works in every other industry--candy, liquor, soft drinks, etc. There is no reason to think it would be any different in e-liquids...

 

[Levitas]

Why is my name in quotations? lol

I was just answering the question of why Boba's Bounty is so rich solely based on the evidenced I've gathered in the threads here, personal experience, and from other sources in which the proprietor made mention of their juice, like Facebook for example.

In fact, on the topic of Boba's Bounty, another piece of the information pie that Ben (proprietor at Alien Visions) released is that the blends Boba's Bounty and Gorilla Juice were unbelievably simple to create. This would lead me to believe that there aren't very many ingredients in the blend, however, that is all mere speculation.

However, I will agree that your assessment could very well be valid for many of the vendors you've mentioned, and heck, maybe even Alien Visions. At least as far as richness = multiple flavors, rather than richness = more of one flavor.

I even made mention that based off of the information of my original post, richness = more flavor, will not always be the key. In fact, I personally would go against such advice, as I believe it really starts to hurt the blend, over enhancing it. But, I said it because of the information given from Ave about how they use ~50% flavoring total in their blend. Whether or not it's a couple of ingredients, or a plethora, I have no clue.

 

[StereoDreamer]

"Levitas", I put your name in quotes because I almost always do that, to set the name apart from the text of a post. I wasn't attacking you, or trying to slam your assertions, just saying that it was my experience in various other flavor-based experiences that "richness" in flavor is generally NOT about concentration, it's about complex combinations.

I wasn't aware that the folks at AVE ha admitted they use ~50% flavoring. That certainly does change the discussion...

However, I would take ANYTHING stated about their process with a grain of salt. You have to remember, this is a juice vendor that uses the "Black Friday Stampede" business model for their most popular juice, and only has it available on their website for about 6 minutes a week. IMO, any business that would use such a business model would probably NEVER actually tell you how they made their product--and might even give out intentional disinformation. But that's just my opinion...

 

[BillLouisiana]

My 2 cents.
Being "simple to create" doesn't imply a small number of ingredients. I think it implies "easily obtained ingredients."
To me, using "50% flavoring" might mean an extraction of some ingredient. That also implies not "simple to create".
Any surprise there are contradictory statements by AVE about Boba's Bounty? I don't think so.

 

[Levitas]

Bah, no offense taken I was just clarifying, if you hadn't read my original response.

Yeah, I had made mention of the debate on the validity of such claims from Alien Visions. It seems almost unnecessary for them to purposely restrict sales to a certain amount daily, only to increase demand and sales. If it were you, and you had one of the most popular juices on the market, would you purposely restrict sales for no more reason than to increase the demand? Or, would you sell every bottle that you physically could, to ensure a happy customer base, and well, more revenue in the pocket?

Personally, I don't think that this tactic, as you put, is utilized for an ulterior motive, but that's just my opinion. I figure it to be what they say, which is a couple of people trying to fill out hundreds of orders daily, and closing shop to keep up with shipping, all the while, maintain their sanity and some sort of life aside of mixing juice.

Perhaps I'm naive, and they're really this maniacal, but I truly find it difficult to believe that any small business owner would restrict potential revenue for such reasons. In fact, they have got to be losing some customer base because of this. I know of at least one customer they lost, me. And I bought 100mls a month. I chose to DIY because of this, and well, because if what they say is really true, I wanted to lay off and give them time to grow again.

Phew, that's quite an off topic rant there. Sorry OP.

 

[graffinfected]

IMO, any business that would use such a business model would probably NEVER actually tell you how they made their product--and might even give out intentional disinformation. But that's just my opinion...

I agree with you here... why wouldnt they?? why wouldnt they come in here every now and then and give false hints on what their juice has in it??? it would throw people off.. especially on the people that study them... Another thing... why in the world would they come in here every now and then.. and give REAL hints to their juice.. that would be silly if you ask me... which makes me think... are we being silly because we listen to them??? yes, 50% is high.. but read what BILLLOUISIANA said.. he could be right also.. If it was me running AVE.. i would never give hints on my juices.. Even though the guy from AVE (dont remember his name) might have said something about the juice before they got as big as they are now..

Personally, I don't think that this tactic, as you put, is utilized for an ulterior motive, but that's just my opinion. I figure it to be what they say, which is a couple of people trying to fill out hundreds of orders daily, and closing shop to keep up with shipping, all the while, maintain their sanity and some sort of life aside of mixing juice. .

i agree with you yet again Levi, I think that they close it up because they have to make all the orders bottled and shipped within a certain amount of time... and if you think about it.. it makes sense.. because the tobacco they use has to steep (possibly the juice as a whole also).. they have to pack up the orders and get it shipped in time so people dont get upset.. these guys get swamped with people everyday trying to buy their juice.. think about this.. alot of other vendors dont get slammed like this until they have a black friday deal.. or on a special day where they lower their prices.. thats when they reeeallly get slammed.. and so what happens??? they run out of stock quickly... they get behind on their orders... etc.. this is most likely why AVE is doing this.. IMO.. on second thought.. they can always hire more staff to handle the orders.. but then that can lead to the ingredients being leaked.. so who knows really.. only the AVE staff knows whats going on..

My 2 cents.
Being "simple to create" doesn't imply a small number of ingredients. I think it implies "easily obtained ingredients."
To me, using "50% flavoring" might mean an extraction of some ingredient. That also implies not "simple to create".
Any surprise there are contradictory statements by AVE about Boba's Bounty? I don't think so.

so back to the subject annnd i agree with you also... i dont know why people freak about going over 20% TOTAL in flavoring your juice... some people feel like less is more.. and in some cases they are right... but some juices need more of one flavor for it to even feel like its present.. in alot of cases, yes, more flavor means richer flavor.. and even though all this is my opinion... but i think a few others can agree with me. i know of a couple juices i make that require more than 20% and im talking 23-25% and i always feel like i ruined the juice because i added too much when in fact its not bad at all.... you have to remember most of the people that type in here are NOT professionals at juice making.. i mean yes, they can come up with some ok juice.. but i have learned that the best juice out ther is YOUR juice.. you should mix however you want.. rather it be 20% flavoring or 300% flavoring.. ( please dont be ridiculous and say "300% flavoring is crazy" because you would just be stating the obvious, but im sure you get the point im trying to make).... This is DIY... DO IT YOURSELF... meaning to your liking.. to your percentage.. to your pg/vg mix.. your nic.. its all you and how you prefer it to be... thats the beauty in this stuff..

 

[nnote]

My fav DIY is 34% With one of those flavors at 22%... and that's all the hints Im giving hahaha!

 

[graffinfected]

............

My fav DIY is 34% With one of those flavors at 22%... and that's all the hints Im giving hahaha!

 

[BakuPeg]

I've gone beyond trying to figure what is in other vendor juices. I want to make MY mixes the best possible. and as a side note I want to help others make THEIR mixes the best they can It wouldnt surprise me either way that ave is 50% flavoring or false info is passed in the neither to throw Pesky DIYers off the trail. *Those DARNED KIDS not wating to pay full price for JUICE!! How Dare we try to save a buck and make BETTER JUICE! Grrrr!*

To that end and a cabinet full of flavors and steeping mixes, boxes of tobacco leaves for extractions and tinctures.. Husband likes my mixes better than anything we've purchased from a vendor.. so to that end I am happy.

If 5% flavor works for you (many of the SC are about 2-5%) Then good for you!

If 25% is your sweet point. Hey thats cool!
More flavor does not always make the flavor richer. It all depends on the mix and flavors you use, AND your base mix PG and VG. DIY is not an exact science, but full of guesswork, opinions, work, trail and error. AND.. Heavenly JOY when you create your perfect mix!... and then tweak it.. and then make your 10th perfect mix.. and it never stops eeek!

 

[glassmanoak]

VERY well said, BakuPeg! Very well!

 

[zapped]

I think you must have gotten that information in error Levitas.Ive been a user of AVE for a long time now and there NO WAY the percentage is of flavoring is that high.

They offer a flavor bump in their checkout and state that they will prioritize flavor over vg but I dont think its meant literally.

I think they achieve that fullness from layering in different flavors.We were just talking an another thread about how Hype has melon undertones to it.

 

[nnote]

The only thing that scares me on DIY is when the OCD kicks in. Get a great juice made, and tweak it one more time and it's great and you tweak it one more time and it's great and you tweak it one more time... etc etc