Rock tumbler overnight seems to have accelerated aging of my DIY juice

[Mr.Mann]

Mr Mann,

Sorry for the delay. I buy my flavoring from a local store and wanted verification from him on the manufacturer. It is NicVape. I'm using equal parts cinnamon, sweetner and raspberry to make up 20 percent and 80 percent kosher VG. Mine looks like your bottle on the right. Doesn't get clear. I guess that's OK though, it tastes good.
He's getting me some Lorann raspberry to try next.
Only problem is I'm getting a lot of dry hits with my kayfun. I'm considering adding some PG for this reason.
Thanks!
Kim

At what percentage did you use it? While some have no qualms with vaping cloudy looking liquid, I too am on that will pass on it. It's just a personal thing, I guess. But, it can be alleviated often times by, as been said already in this thread, smaller percentage used, and/or added PG. Be careful of the Lorann liquids you get becasue some of them are not water soluble, yet even the ones that are will still be called "oils".

 

[zapped]

On the rare occasions that Ive steeped a juice Ive found that taking the top off and placing it in the microwave for a few seconds (careful here as too much time will make it explode) followed by a vigorous shake works wonders.

 

[ErnieKim]

Danny,
I'm trying my best to convey to you how complex and unpredictable this technique (use of ultrasound in a water-filled chamber) can be. Please paste the following into your browser and it should give you a visual: schlieren photography mode conversion of sound waves
When confined to the chamber, sound reflects and refracts and the result is incredibly complex and nearly impossible to control. I say nearly because as I said earlier, it can be done but it is very, very difficult and expensive.
As the sound reflects and refracts around the chamber, there are new types of wave modalities produced. Each of these wave modes would need to be assessed for their effects.
And then the alternative:
Use a mixing or shaking action. You're done! That simple.
Now all you have left are the other long term potential health effects that will take years to understand.
My only point was why add another big question mark into the equation when there is a simpler solution.

 

[ErnieKim]

At what percentage did you use it? While some have no qualms with vaping cloudy looking liquid, I too am on that will pass on it. It's just a personal thing, I guess. But, it can be alleviated often times by, as been said already in this thread, smaller percentage used, and/or added PG. Be careful of the Lorann liquids you get becasue some of them are not water soluble, yet even the ones that are will still be called "oils".

Mr. Mann,
Yes, the oil aspect concerns me. I may just avoid the Lorann. The raspberry that I'm currently using is just not coming through. Perhaps the PG will help.

 

[Mr.Mann]

Mr. Mann,
Yes, the oil aspect concerns me. I may just avoid the Lorann. The raspberry that I'm currently using is just not coming through. Perhaps the PG will help.

Raspberry is kinda hard for flavorings and I've yet to meet one that was worth toiling over -- but that's just my opinion.

 

[zoiDman]

Mr. Zoidman,
There was a sidebar during a panel discussion at the most recent summit and "lack of research funding" was given as a reason for not having more specific details on the potential effects. Sure, this is typical jockeying to get funding and the likes of Phillip Morris will probably fund it if the results give them leverage in some way. Ultrasonic processing is commonly used in chemistry to modify chemical structures. It's extremely complicated, uses expensive predictive modeling, specially designed chambers to avoid wave mode conversions, and on and on. When done and done correctly, efficiencies result that allow faster processing but an incredible volume of "product" is needed to justify the expense. If not done correctly, a lot of damage can be done to a lot of "product" very quickly. The specifics of the damage aren't usually investigated because of cost, at this point, they usually revert back to simple mixing procedures.
I've probably strayed from your question but they probably wouldn't be referring to specific damage that they have physically measured, more likely they are referring to potential chemical changes of unknown degree from friction/temperature "hot-spots" that can occur if procedures aren't correct. There are many different kinds of wave modes bouncing around in the chamber/tank, it would take all night for me to describe half of them. It's Very complicated and since cleaners are not built for this purpose, no precautions/design considerations have been done.
My point was that the simple solutions are usually the best, unless one has a lot of money to throw around. Using something like a jigsaw to shake a bottle is one thing, but ultrasonic generators have the potential to do some pretty MAJOR physical disruption.

The reason all this Caught my Eye was two fold.

One. I (as a Joke) post awhile back that someone might use a Rock Tumbler to "Steep" their e-Liquids vs using a Ultrasonic Cleaner.

And Second. I have a Limited background with regards to Ultrasonic Welding of Plastics. And that background included a Very Brief detour into the Theory of Sonochemistry when the Ultrasonic Crazy hit the DIY Market.

I will agree with you that Accurately predicting the amount of Chemical Changes and Reaction Times based of Cavitation Models or Adiabatic Processes is Complex. Very Complex. And dependent on Many Variables. Variables that a Lay DIYer could Not Control. Or perhaps, even Quantify.

I don't use Ultrasonic methods to "Steep" my e-Liquids. I have found that the Same Effects that many Ultrasonic users have reported Can be achieved by just placing a Mixed e-Liquid in a Cool, Dark Place. The Only Difference that I have Observed is a Possible acceleration of the time required to obtain these Effects.

You have mentioned a "panel discussion at the most recent summit" a few times in this Thread. Perhaps you can post a Link to what you are referring to? Or maybe I Missed it.

 

[Exchaner]

Like many other subjects, this discussion whether the UC is safe or not can not be easily resolved. Each side wants proof, and neither side can produce it with concrete scientific data. It's a common problem in many fields - the safety of nicotine in lower dozes for example. No one can conclusively prove it is medically safe, nor can anyone prove the opposite. In such cases, I personally tend to err on the side of caution.

 

[ErnieKim]

Like many other subjects, this discussion whether the UC is safe or not can not be easily resolved. Each side wants proof, and neither side can produce it with concrete scientific data. It's a common problem in many fields - the safety of nicotine in lower dozes for example. No one can conclusively prove it is medically safe, nor can anyone prove the opposite. In such cases, I personally tend to err on the side of caution.

I agree with the cautious approach. Chemists have been "mixing" for a very long time. Usually I say that just because something has been done a long time doesn't make it right, but my experiment verified that it works so it's good enough for me.

 

[ErnieKim]

The reason all this Caught my Eye was two fold.

One. I (as a Joke) post awhile back that someone might use a Rock Tumbler to "Steep" their e-Liquids vs using a Ultrasonic Cleaner.

And Second. I have a Limited background with regards to Ultrasonic Welding of Plastics. And that background included a Very Brief detour into the Theory of Sonochemistry when the Ultrasonic Crazy hit the DIY Market.

I will agree with you that Accurately predicting the amount of Chemical Changes and Reaction Times based of Cavitation Models or Adiabatic Processes is Complex. Very Complex. And dependent on Many Variables. Variables that a Lay DIYer could Not Control. Or perhaps, even Quantify.

I don't use Ultrasonic methods to "Steep" my e-Liquids. I have found that the Same Effects that many Ultrasonic users have reported Can be achieved by just placing a Mixed e-Liquid in a Cool, Dark Place. The Only Difference that I have Observed is a Possible acceleration of the time required to obtain these Effects.

You have mentioned a "panel discussion at the most recent summit" a few times in this Thread. Perhaps you can post a Link to what you are referring to? Or maybe I Missed it.

Mr. ZoiDman

The videos were unfortunately edited into a "fancy" presentation format and the sidebar discussions were cropped. I believe it was Dr Farsalinos that discussed it in his formal presentation. I'll keep looking for the complete videos. The link is:
http://vaping.com/ecigsummit2014?_ga=1.222613019.1420986293.1412334583

Take care,
ErnieKim

 

[jpasint]

Like many other subjects, this discussion whether the UC is safe or not can not be easily resolved. Each side wants proof, and neither side can produce it with concrete scientific data. It's a common problem in many fields - the safety of nicotine in lower dozes for example. No one can conclusively prove it is medically safe, nor can anyone prove the opposite. In such cases, I personally tend to err on the side of caution.

I think it is a fairly established fact that nicotine in low doses is not very harmful, if at all.

 

[Exchaner]

I think it is a fairly established fact that nicotine in low doses is not very harmful, if at all.

You maybe right but where is the scientific proof? And what do you consider low doze. Would 36 mg fit that category?

 

[Mr.Mann]

...It's a common problem in many fields - the safety of nicotine in lower dozes for example. No one can conclusively prove it is medically safe, nor can anyone prove the opposite. In such cases, I personally tend to err on the side of caution.

"Safe" like what? Like Aspirin? Like caffeine?

 

[Exchaner]

"Safe" like what? Like Aspirin? Like caffeine?

Don't know how to answer your question, but I do know nic will raise blood pressure and a whole host of other issues. The best I can say is that 12mg is safer than 24mg. I recall we had this discussion in a separate thread ( in which you also participated) and got nowhere. Someone started a troll and we left it there....

 

[Mr.Mann]

You maybe right but where is the scientific proof? And what do you consider low doze. Would 36 mg fit that category?

As with caffeine, it will largely depend on the consumer. My wife can't drink a quarter cup of coffee -- ever -- without her digestive system getting out-of-whack, yet I drink over 40 oz of coffee a day like it's water. As with many things, it'll depend on the user, as well as what could be considered a low dose. And even with the amount of caffeine or nicotine I take in, it's rarely an acute dose for it's either being sipped on or vaped on. One vape of 36 mg/mL isn't necessarily a 36 mg dose unless you consumed 1 mL in one breath.

I used to vape 32 mg, but it was about 1-2 mL a day.

Don't know how to answer your question, but I do know nic will raise blood pressure and a whole host of other issues. The best I can say is that 12mg is safer than 24mg. I recall we had this discussion in a separate thread ( in which you also participated) and got nowhere. Someone started a troll and we left it there....

For real? Gotta love the trolls! LOL. My point is that I challenge anyone to show me anything that doesn't have some drawbacks with excessive consumption. Dose makes the poison, but that dose will likely be different for me to you to my daughter to my Yorkie. I am not sure when safety is considered an absolute. I mean, eggs are considered healthy, but how many should I eat at once? I had a 6 egg omelette today, but someone not concerned with anabolism, and maybe one that is morbidly obese, may not consider that "safe."

 

[Exchaner]

Absolutely right, but nevertheless, chances are your Yorkie is better off without that stuff than with it - low doze or not.

 

[Mr.Mann]

Absolutely right, but nevertheless, chances are your Yorkie is better off without the stuff than with it - low doze or not.

Ha! Considering her 3.5 lb body, Id be willing to assume you are correct. But then again, her biggest threat is being stepped on by humans, not ingesting nicotine. In all seriousness, one of our fears with my little dog was my daughter dropping little chocolate chips from these little granola bars she likes. But is chocolate safe? Not for my dog, but fine for me.

Okay, sorry for off-topic stuff.

 

[Exchaner]

But is chocolate safe?

She should be fine, if not for the sugar .... safer than a burger at McDonald's anyway. To that point, if a doctor ever told me I only had a couple more years to live, I would try every poison, every sin known to man. Got nothing to lose. The only thing I wouldn't try is ..... on second thought .... forget it; this is the wrong forum.

 

[zoiDman]

Mr. ZoiDman

The videos were unfortunately edited into a "fancy" presentation format and the sidebar discussions were cropped. I believe it was Dr Farsalinos that discussed it in his formal presentation. I'll keep looking for the complete videos. The link is:
http://vaping.com/ecigsummit2014?_ga=1.222613019.1420986293.1412334583

Take care,
ErnieKim

Please do post it if you can find it. I would be Interested in hearing what was Discussed.

 

[WillyZee]

She should be fine, if not for the sugar .... safer than a burger at McDonald's anyway. To that point, if a doctor ever told me I only had a couple more years to live, I would try every poison, every sin known to man. Got nothing to lose. The only thing I wouldn't try is ..... on second thought .... forget it; this is the wrong forum.

I'd get a second opinion before teeing off on all those poisons.


Sent via iPhone

 

[ErnieKim]

Please do post it if you can find it. I would be Interested in hearing what was Discussed.

Mr. ZoiDman

I will dig deeper. I'll join the forum it was on and put up a post.

ErnieKim