Safe 18650 battery alternative?

[mda71]

Would this battery, in the link below, be a safe or safer alternative then the 18650 batteries we currently use?

Protected Panasonic 3100mAh 18650 battery cell - Assembly made by Orbtronic
It has a maximum working discharge current of 6.2A and cut off protection circuit at 8.5A. This seems to be sufficient to power up the vast majority of vapers that use this battery right?

Your thoughts will be greatly appreciated.

Regards,

mda71

 

[Renzuli]

That would work just fine , although it does seem a tad on the expensive side , especially if there is also shipping charges .

 

[Retriever]

Looks like a nice battery! The plus is that it is made in Japan and not China.

 

[mda71]

I will buy 2 and test them out. They are offering free USPS shipping (probably first class mail).

Thanks for the reply.

 

[sailorman]

Depends on what you currently use. An AW IMR 18650 has a safer chemistry and a discharge rate of 10A. But the maximum capacity is 2000mah.

That battery should be fine, and probably significantly safer than any of the Trust/Surefire protected lithiums that many of us have used for years without incident.

Probably the safest 18650 sized battery I know of is the 4.8V NiMh from Callie's Kustoms. I don't recall the capacity however, but it's significantly lower than a standard Lithium-ion or IMR, something near 1200 mah, if memory serves. It might be worthy of consideration for those who like to vape at 5V and dont have a VV mod.

 

[sailorman]

That same site has a Panasonic IMR 18650 10A battery at 2250mah. This is the largest capacity verified IMR I've seen as yet. I've contacted them for the overall length to see if it will fit a Lavatube without any gaps in the endcap. For $9.99, the price is right as well. I think I trust Panasonic Japanese batteries even more than the AW brand. If anyone is interested, it's here: IMR Panasonic 18650 Li-Mn-Li-ion CGR18650CH High Drain 10A Rechargeable Battery Cell

 

[mda71]

I was under the impression that AW IMR 18650 was a rebranded Panasonic IMR 18650. Both are rated at 10A output. The panasonic can also be found at:

IMR Panasonic 18650 Li-Mn-Li-ion CGR18650CH High Drain 10A Rechargeable Battery Cell

The datasheet for the Panasonic can be found here: (though limited)

http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/includes/pdf/Panasonic_LiIon_CGR18650CG.pdf

Sorry if I seem OCD about this. When I use to buy ni-cd batteries for my RC hobby, I used to buy brand name batteries. One day I removed the heat shrink from a broken battery and found out all the cells were sanyo. After that I purchased sanyo batteries and saved a ton of money. I don't know if I will save a lot of money for the batteries used in vaping but it seemed to be safer. The battery that I originally posted offered the following:

-Over discharge protection @ 2.5v
-Over charge Protection @ 4.325v
-Over current protection @ 8.5A

I looked at the manufacturer datasheet and found this:
http://industrial.panasonic.com/www-data/pdf/ACA4000/ACA4000PE3.pdf

What I am looking for in a battery is safety and longevity. If this thing can truly output at 6.5A, this amperage would be more then I would currently need. 2-4A would be fine for almost all my vaping needs.

Also hoping this would fit in a bolt


Regards,

mda71

p.s. I don't work, associated or have ever purchased anything from this company. I just thought they had a good product.

 

[sailorman]

If I needed that extra capacity, I'd sooner go for the Panasonic protected Li-Ion as any other protected lithium I know of. But I can vape all day on one generic 1600 IMR, so I don't feel the need to rely on a protection circuit from either Japan or China. I may however pick up some of these for flashlights and my bike light battery pack. I might even use them if I'm going to be away from land or civilization for more than a couple days at a time.

That panasonic 18650 you linked to is the same one, from the same site, I linked to. It's a 2250mah, 10A battery. Andy Wang has told at least one vendor here that he cannot provide an IMR over 2000mah. Even that is recent as he had previously been limited to 1600mah. My original post saying that IMR's top out at 2000mah was based on that info.
I believe his cells are Sanyo, but frankly I wouldn't bet the farm that they're consistently sourced from any one manufacturer.

Either way, I trust a battery with a known pedigree from Japan over a Chinese AW. IMR's are the safest chemistry going. The Panasonics have 10% more capacity than the AWs. At 10A, they have the same discharge capacity. The price is $9.99 shipped, which is as cheap or cheaper than I've ever seen AW 18650 IMRs. They are just over 65mm long, so they'll fit my LavaTube and a bolt. (Which is a knock off of the Silver Bullet). BTW, Thanks for the link to that datasheet. For me, it's a no-brainer. I WILL be getting these IMR's in the future. I just paid $10 for a 1600 generic IMR not a week ago.

 

[AZCraig]

If I needed that extra capacity, I'd sooner go for the Panasonic protected Li-Ion as any other protected lithium I know of. But I can vape all day on one generic 1600 IMR, so I don't feel the need to rely on a protection circuit from either Japan or China. I may however pick up some of these for flashlights and my bike light battery pack. I might even use them if I'm going to be away from land or civilization for more than a couple days at a time.

That panasonic 18650 you linked to is the same one, from the same site, I linked to. It's a 2250mah, 10A battery. Andy Wang has told at least one vendor here that he cannot provide an IMR over 2000mah. Even that is recent as he had previously been limited to 1600mah. My original post saying that IMR's top out at 2000mah was based on that info.
I believe his cells are Sanyo, but frankly I wouldn't bet the farm that they're consistently sourced from any one manufacturer.

Either way, I trust a battery with a known pedigree from Japan over a Chinese AW. IMR's are the safest chemistry going. The Panasonics have 10% more capacity than the AWs. At 10A, they have the same discharge capacity. The price is $9.99 shipped, which is as cheap or cheaper than I've ever seen AW 18650 IMRs. They are just over 65mm long, so they'll fit my LavaTube and a bolt. (Which is a knock off of the Silver Bullet). BTW, Thanks for the link to that datasheet. For me, it's a no-brainer. I WILL be getting these IMR's in the future. I just paid $10 for a 1600 generic IMR not a week ago.

FWIW, AW means the battery was assembled/tested by the AW company. The cells used in AW batteries may be made by a Japanese or Chinese manufacturer. AW tests the cells these manufacturers produce and assembles the best into batteries with the AW brand.

 

[rse1]

FYI: I just ordered a couple of 18650s from Callies Kustoms in Oregon ( Callies Kustoms 3100mAh 18650 Panasonic Batteries ). I got the IMR battery (2250 mah, Panasonic CGR18650CH) for $12.95 - they also carry the protected ICR (3100 mah) for $15.95.

 

[sailorman]

FWIW, AW means the battery was assembled/tested by the AW company. The cells used in AW batteries may be made by a Japanese or Chinese manufacturer. AW tests the cells these manufacturers produce and assembles the best into batteries with the AW brand.

Yeah, I know. It's Andy Wang. He got his start on Candlepowerforums selling batteries then took off from there. They're good batteries, but it's not like he extensively tests each cell or something. What they do would more accurately be called grading. I just think that Panasonic, since they're the manufacturer, probably has better QC. I also think there's a better chance of getting the better grade of battery from the manufacturer when they know their own name is going on the jacket. The Pannys seem to have better discharge curves and they definitely have a higher capacity. I also found a discussion about AW vs these Panasonics in the mod section. The battery guru agrees that the Panny is a better cell for our uses. They also discussed a video where both cells were stressed and the AW melted the cords and produced a lot more heat than the Panny. I think the Panny has a better internal design. Plus, they cost no more than AW's.

 

[sailorman]

FYI: I just ordered a couple of 18650s from Callies Kustoms in Oregon ( Callies Kustoms 3100mAh 18650 Panasonic Batteries ). I got the IMR battery (2250 mah, Panasonic CGR18650CH) for $12.95 - they also carry the protected ICR (3100 mah) for $15.95.

Were you aware that the IMR's were $9.99 with free shipping at orbtronic?

 

[rse1]

Sailorman, I had missed that orbtronic had free shipping - Thanks for pointing that out. I wouldn't have mentioned anything but I had just ordered this morning and felt it was the best battery (and price) I'd seen and was thrilled to deal with a local company. Now everyone else on the ECF gets a better deal - Timing is everything isn't it!!!

 

[hairball]

That same site has a Panasonic IMR 18650 10A battery at 2250mah. This is the largest capacity verified IMR I've seen as yet. I've contacted them for the overall length to see if it will fit a Lavatube without any gaps in the endcap. For $9.99, the price is right as well. I think I trust Panasonic Japanese batteries even more than the AW brand. If anyone is interested, it's here: IMR Panasonic 18650 Li-Mn-Li-ion CGR18650CH High Drain 10A Rechargeable Battery Cell

The CGR18650CH, from what I've read, kicks the britches off the AW's in performance. I would gladly take a Japanese cell over China's anyday. Too bad they don't make the lifepo's...at least I can't find any.

 

[mda71]

I hope this thread does not turn into a "company a" versus "company b" war. That was not intention. In all honesty, I was trying to find a safe battery. I heard that IMR batteries had a "safe chemestry" and that other lithium batteries required a circuit to to make them safer. What I was trying to find was a battery with safe chemistry and a circuit to prevent over charging, over discharging and over current protection. Basically a safer “safe battery”. I thought that the Panasonic NCR18650A had what I was looking for.

The Protected 3100mAh Li-ion Panasonic NCR18650A cost $13.99 with free USPS shipping I thought was a fair deal.

 

[sailorman]

I hope this thread does not turn into a "company a" versus "company b" war. That was not intention. In all honesty, I was trying to find a safe battery. I heard that IMR batteries had a "safe chemestry" and that other lithium batteries required a circuit to to make them safer. What I was trying to find was a battery with safe chemistry and a circuit to prevent over charging, over discharging and over current protection. Basically a safer “safe battery”. I thought that the Panasonic NCR18650A had what I was looking for. The Protected 3100mAh Li-ion Panasonic NCR18650A cost $13.99 with free USPS shipping I thought was a fair deal.

It IS what you're looking for. It's not a safer safe battery, it's a safer battery than most and safer than anything I've seen with a similar capacity. The price is o.k. too. It's cheaper than some smaller 18650 IMR's I've seen. So thanks for bringing it to our attention. It sounds perfect for my 4x18650 bike light pack. Nothing worse than being plunged into darkness while riding down a dark street on the way home from the local pub.

Don't get me wrong, I'm totally impressed with that 3100mah Panny. It looks like the safest Li-ion I've ever come across, and the capacity is outstanding.

I'm just of the opinion that a well designed and made IMR is inherently safer than any Li-ion, regardless of circuitry. Note I said "well designed and made". I'd trust that Li-ion more than some Chinese mystery manufacturer IMR any day.

But, you can't have a battery that operates well if the chemistry is defective. That's not the case with protection circuits. Even though I trust the Q.C. of Panasonic more than most, I trust the laws of chemical reactions even more.

I figure that an IMR has no protection circuit for the same reason a boat doesn't have a parachute. You could stick one on it but why bother. I don't mind a battery that might heat and vent if it's shorted, but flaming is another animal. Did you see the forced failure vid of the Panasonic IMR?

 

[DC2]

Probably the safest 18650 sized battery I know of is the 4.8V NiMh from Callie's Kustoms. I don't recall the capacity however, but it's significantly lower than a standard Lithium-ion or IMR, something near 1200 mah, if memory serves. It might be worthy of consideration for those who like to vape at 5V and dont have a VV mod.

If these are the same ones I get from MadVapes, and it looks like they are, then they are 600 mah.

 

[sailorman]

If these are the same ones I get from MadVapes, and it looks like they are, then they are 600 mah.

Yeah, that makes sense, since they're just 4 little cells wired in series. Kinda pricey at Callies, but if you want near 5V vaping and safety is paramount, they're worth a shot.

How is the voltage drop under use with these? Do they maintain 4.8 or thereabouts very long?

 

[DC2]

How is the voltage drop under use with these? Do they maintain 4.8 or thereabouts very long?

I have a multimeter, but so far I don't use it.
I try to practice battery safety, but only do so to a limited extent.

Maybe one of these days I'll put the multimeter by my charging area in the bathroom.
Maybe I'll put it next to the Liposack.

I keep that folded under the spare toilet paper roll on top of the toilet which is in a decorative container when not in use.
When it's in use for charging purposes, I put it in the sink.

Thankfully, I'm the only one who really uses this bathroom...
Because I'm quite certain my wife wouldn't want this stuff hanging out in her bathroom.


So yeah, I don't even currently check my batteries for voltage before putting on the charger, or after coming off the charger.
But maybe some day I'll become that guy, but no promises are being made.

As it stands now, I charge in a Liposack, and when I put a newly charged battery in I push the button once while standing over the bathtub.
Hopefully the vent hole in the bottom of my Chuck will warn me in time to drop the thing into the bathtub.

After that initial press of the button to make sure it doesn't go nuclear, I have no further safety measures I employ at this time.
That may change, or it may not, I haven't decided yet.

But one thing is certain... at this time I do not check my batteries to determine voltage drop under use.
:shrug:

 

[mda71]

Did you see the forced failure vid of the Panasonic IMR?

Very nice. He shorted the battery for 1 hour and was still able to recharge the battery!!! The highest temperature was about 133-135 degrees.