So You Quit the Stinkers - But are you still hooked on Nicotine?

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Lindamck

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I'm a newbie also...been off analogs for 2 months now. When I started I was vaping 18mg nic and over bought on those :(. I am now buying 12 mg nic and will be beginning to mix them not only to lower my nic level but to use up the higher nic juices. I will start buying 6 mg juices at some point in time and this routine again. I may also buy some zero nic to help the last of the 18's go away. Goal is of course to get as low as possible WITHOUT upping the failure chance. This will work but I have to take it nice and slow. Good luck and just do what ever works for you. Anything is better analogs! vape on!
 

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I started at 24mg, and stayed at 24mg for a year and half. In the last few weeks I started started lowing my nicotine level just to try it. About -5mg each week (or 30ml bottle). I was encouraged by how easily I adapted to the lower nicotine. The first day I vaped a little more and then I was over it. I kept some higher nicotine liquid on the side just in case, but it wasn't necessary.

This week I'm beginning with ~2.5mg.
 

jaeboult

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Cigarette addiction and nicotine addiction are 2 totally separate animals. If they were one in the same nrt's would be a modern health miracle but for lack of a better term they suck. We all know this. Most of us have tried them (I used lozenges off and on for years). All they did was make it bearable not to smoke but I was NEVER satisfied.

The power of cigarette addiction goes far beyond nicotine. They are very behavioral and I'm certain in my case they messed with my serotonin and moods. That was why the grip was so godawful strong and I'm sure that's the case for many others. Cigarettes controlled (to an extent) my mental well being day to day. I couldn't shake it even after a 5 year cold turkey stint before a relapse. I wanted to relapse.

I did the wellbutrin thing back in 2002. They really did make it easy to stop smoking for me. It was like I didn't care about them anymore. But the side effects sucked. My sleep was terrible and I got frequent headaches from them among other things. I couldn't wait until the 12 weeks was up. I managed to stay smoke/nic free for a couple years again but relapsed with ease. My relapses were mostly based on the constant grip and pull that I couldn't shake. I simply enjoyed myself, my mental state, and my life better when I smoked. Reflecting on the wellbutrin success is compelling personal evidence that mood, overall well being, and behavioral aspects were the primary driver of my addiction and nicotine was secondary.

There's a hollow feeling for most people transitioning from smoking to vaping. For those who had it you know what I'm talking about. Vaping is close enough to trick your mind but not perfect. There is a period where you have to adjust to the other effects of smoking other than nic. Mine lasted only 2-3 weeks and I've been in a sweet spot for over a year (I stopped smoking the day I started vaping). Some people struggle longer with it and some never experience it. Each person's brain is unique so there is no one sized fits all way to make the switch. Cigs are perfectly engineered to do much more than deliver nic. They do a fine job messing with the mind too.

As stated earlier, nicotine is far from the devils drug. There is scientific proof of limited harm and even benefits like increased cognitive abilities. It's starting to be used in treating disorders like alzheimer's. There are plenty of people who have been using nrt's for decades with no evidence that nicotine causes harm over the long term. Some gum users end up with bad teeth and jaw problems but that's another topic. IMO- the potential harm in vaping lies in the inhalation aspect regardless of nic vs no nic. We just don't know how long term exposure to inhaling the ingredients are. I almost exclusively DIY now so I'm in full control of what goes in my juice. Not saying I think store bought is harmful. I just like knowing exactly what I'm ingesting.

I started at 18 but quickly went to 12 because I was vaping too much and got headaches and problems sleeping. Devices make a HUGE difference in delivery. 6mg in a kayfun or dripper is = 10-12mg in a basic tank setup. Right now I'm down to 5-6 in my kayfuns and drippers and 9-10 in my on the go protanks. I dropped my nic because I can vape at work and home with ease so I prefer to vape more and get less nic doing it. Bodies do a good job telling you when you have too little, too much, or just enough. Adjusting your strength to your specific situation is important. Advice is tough because we all have different gear and situations. Listen to your body. If 24 is satisfying then stick with it. If you want to experiment with lower amounts do it with small increments. Jumping from 24 to 18 is a big difference. Buy a bottle of each and mix 50/50 to go 21 first. Mixing your own makes it super easy to control.

I kinda laugh at the whole "creating a new generation of addicted kids" angle. If it was just the nic, NRTs would be loaded up in backpacks and lockers at every middle school and highschool in the country. But they're not. Not even close. I have 4 kids. Whether they choose to vape or not is near the bottom of my list of things to worry about with my kids. Heck, I don't think it's even on my list.

I'm a firm believer that cigarettes affect your wiring in many ways other than nicotine addiction. I also believe that vaping is not a slippery slope for kids. Nothing like cigarettes. Time will tell but I'm pretty confident that will be the case as time goes on.

Bob Chill,
You're right, they are in a different ball park... But they are the same thing. Nicotine addiction can be split into two factors the quantity of nicotine a user desires (the need) and the speed at which the quantity is delivered (the hit). It is the speed of delivery that directly correlates to the level of addiction and the difference between smoking and other forms of nicotine consumption. The analogue is a perfect nicotine delivery device as to the popularity and the devastation it has caused (not to mention the vast profits it has made) NRT users get the quantity they need (if prescribed or bought correctly) but miss the hit. It's the hit that's most important and why many smokers using NRT feel like something is missing. As a result many new NRT users use too much and feel ill, because they miss the hit and feel they should therefore take more (big mistake). Vaping technology is beginning to be able to provide a decent hit (compared to 1st gen devices) but is still slower than analogues. Maximising the hit is the main reason that cigarette manufacturers spent so much on R&D making their products more addictive (despite how dangerous this made their products to public health). May be i'm deluded, but because of the open source nature of E-Cigs, I don't get the feeling that is the primary motivation of current ECig manufacturers.
 

Bob Chill

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Jaeboult, definitely a noteworthy point. Ecigs are likely more efficient than NRTs. And they mimic the behavioral aspect. I think genetics and wiring play a strong role in who smokes, how addicted they become, and how difficult it can be to quit. I'm convinced I was "hard wired" to smoke (i sought it out and started in my early teens). My wife believes she was as well. Digging deeper into the mind there appears to be some inherent genetic traits in long term smokers. Some of it is centered around depression and serotonin. I suppose I could be pre-disposed to mild depression and nicotine keeps me on balance. And if that's what I need to stay on balance then I'm fine with it. A heck of a lot better than things like wellbutrin. I never want to take anything like that again as long as I'm alive.
 

Alien Traveler

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I would like to see hard evidence that being addicted to nicotine is actually bad for human health.
Possibly non except for heart rate

I vape the same amount every day (2mls).
I wish I was on your level of consumption.

I personally believe that being addicted to nicotine is a benefit to my health and day to day life.

Actually it was what I told my wife when I decided to switch to vaping, but I did not said “addiction to nicotine” could be good, I said about “consumption of nicotine”. Just a bit different thing.

One thing about vaping is it's easy to move down the nic ladder.

This thread moved me to make some calculations (it may be not good for my mental health, but anyway…)
Now I use about 4 ml of 15 mg juice a day.

So, I use juice with total of 4*15=60mg nicotine per day. According to rolygat’s post my body absorbs half of it, i.e. 30 mg. Average cigarette deliver 1 mg of nicotine. Now I see my daily nicotine consumption is equal to 30 cigarettes… O, my! It’s significantly more that I have smoked (I was in smoking cessation period). I have to think harder now…

Yes, it is easy to move along the nicotine ladder. Unfortunately I had chosen the wrong direction. I am sad. I am not ready to decrease nicotine level of my juice…
 
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Bob Chill

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This thread moved me to make some calculations (it may be not good for my mental health, but anyway…)
Now I use about 4 ml of 15 mg juice a day.

So, I use juice with total of 4*15=60mg nicotine per day. According to rolygat’s post my body absorbs half of it, i.e. 30 mg. Average cigarette deliver 1 mg of nicotine. Now I see my daily nicotine consumption is equal to 30 cigarettes… O, my! It’s significantly more that I have smoked (I was in smoking cessation period). I have to think harder now…

Yes, it is easy to move along the nicotine ladder. Unfortunately I had chosen the wrong direction. I am sad. I am not ready to decrease nicotine level of my juice…

I think device and vaping style play a big role in how much you absorb. You may not be getting as much as you think. My wife vapes 24 and I have no idea how she does it. But after watching her vape she takes particularly small draws and quick exhales. She also only likes small protanks and davides (not the most efficient). I like kayfuns and drippers + big hits and long slow rolls out my nose. I HAD to move down from 12. My body told me it was too much. When I'm out and using a protank I'll vape a tank in a day @ 12mg. So a bit more than 2 mls.

The first 3-4 months I vaped between 3-5mls a day of 18 then 12. Basically chain vaped as much as possible. It kinda evolved by itself to where I am now.

How long have you been exclusively vaping? I'm at 14 months now.
 

Asbestos4004

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Step 1: eliminate cigarette smoking entirely

Step 2: reduce your nicotine level upon completion of step 1

I've gone from 2 packs a day to no packs a day.
Then I went from 18mg eliquid to 12, to 9, to 6 and I'm currently at 3. I often enjoy 0mg.
Go at your own pace. If you want to be free from nicotine, thats great. It doesn't have to suck, though.
 

SmokinRabbit

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With the community of e-cig user (the majority ex tobacco smokers) you are generally looking at individuals with patters of additive behaviour. So maybe that is why people blow all their money on supplies or chain vape. You can get transferred addiction when you stop one thing and replace it for another, so maybe thats it.

I also work part-time, study full-time at uni and have a family. I just have a week off and i'm new and enthusiastic and vaping and the forum. You shouldn't throw around comments about others 'living' on forums, pretty unnecessary.

I was responding to being called a troll because I didn't come back in 30 seconds and reply, that's all.
 

SmokinRabbit

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Step 1: eliminate cigarette smoking entirely

Step 2: reduce your nicotine level upon completion of step 1

I've gone from 2 packs a day to no packs a day.
Then I went from 18mg eliquid to 12, to 9, to 6 and I'm currently at 3. I often enjoy 0mg.
Go at your own pace. If you want to be free from nicotine, thats great. It doesn't have to suck, though.

I agree!
I'm actually going to go into my local vapor shop tonight and see what nicotine strengths they have.

As I mentioned previously, I get somewhere in the neighborhood of 2-4mg of nicotine in my analogs, so I'm not sure where to start with what strength juice to get... any suggestions?
 

rolygate

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Don't forget that in calculating nicotine delivery via an ecig, a constant of 0.5 must be applied to the calculation unless you have specific data for your hardware.
..............
So if you consume 3ml of 12mg refill per day, that is a total of 36mg of nicotine in the liquid, and you can assume (without specific data to the contrary) that you will be receiving 18mg of nicotine (though it could be a great deal less, or more, depending on numerous factors).

BUT: also note that this topic is complex, and simplistic 'equivalency' calculations might be a mistake.

For example: we don't know if the bioavailability of the nicotine in tobacco smoke and in ecig vapor are the same. It may be significantly different. In other words: if you get 1mg of nic in the mouth/lungs from a cigarette or from an ecig, do they work exactly the same? Nobody knows.

Plus, we also don't know if, once delivered to the bloodstream, pure nicotine from an ecig and buffered, synergised nicotine from a cigarette work in exactly the same way. Perhaps they don't.

We do know there is something unusual going on here because without exception vapers report exactly the same effect for a plasma nic level from vaping that is about 33% - 40% lower than the smoked equivalent. Example: a subject in a clinical trial will measure e.g. 15ng plasma nic level when vaping (at Cmax, Tmax) and 25ng when smoking; they will self-titrate to those levels; and they report that they 'are the same'.

So the plasma nic level for the same effect is significantly higher when smoking than when vaping.

Explain that! :)

And also note: the vaping research community is becoming aware of this but it is completely unknown to the wider medical community or tobacco research community, who have never (AFAIK) published that there is a difference in effect between pure nicotine and tobacco smoke nicotine - and that this effect is in favor of pure nic and against the (claimed) 'super effective' nicotine in tobacco smoke.
 

AndriaD

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And also note: the vaping research community is becoming aware of this but it is completely unknown to the wider medical community or tobacco research community, who have never (AFAIK) published that there is a difference in effect between pure nicotine and tobacco smoke nicotine - and that this effect is in favor of pure nic and against the (claimed) 'super effective' nicotine in tobacco smoke.

I definitely go along with that. I was a pk a day smoker, or more, for 39 yrs. Yet 18mg and 12mg eliquids both made me sick as a dog; I had to drop to 6mg before I could vape regularly at all, then back up to 9-10mg after I quit smoking.

The fact that the cigarettes I smoked were rated at just .5mg per cigarette probably accounts for the first; I was getting a lot of the "other stuff" in cigarette tobacco, but not a great deal of nicotine. It would seem that vaping 10mg would be a great deal more nicotine than I was getting from cigarettes -- yet it doesn't make me sick, in fact I had to add some WTA just to stay free of cravings. Which also speaks to the fact that while I wasn't getting a lot of nicotine from cigarettes, I was getting all that other junk, and was more addicted to it, than to the nicotine itself.

Andria
 

rolygate

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Terminology note

We should not perpetuate the propaganda efforts of the commercial and ideological opponents of vaping by using their wording. This method of skewing the debate is primarily seen in their successful attempt to equate smoking with tobacco, and their current attempt to do the same with smoking and nicotine.

What they do is lie prodigiously and repetitively, and eventually everyone (a) believes the lies and (b) starts to repeat their lies for them. It's a win-win...


Smoking vs tobacco
Smoking is reputed to kill 440,000 a year in the US. I'm not going to get into that as I'm not an expert on the epidemiology. It's either right, or an exaggeration - but let's say it's correct, for the sake of argument. Let's agree, for the purpose of this particular position, that smoking kills, and a lot. Given that anti-smokers lie about everything, we cannot automatically assume their stats are right.

Smoking kills, tobacco use doesn't. There is such a huge amount of factual and evidential data from Sweden that a Snus consumer is equivalent to a non-smoker in terms of health outcomes, it cannot be argued. (That is to say, by statistical analysis, if smokers totally quit or switch to Snus, there is no reliably-quantifiable difference in health outcomes.) Individuals are as always exempt from the average because their genetics make them so.

Tobacco users in Sweden have proven (not just supplied some evidence) that tobacco use has no significant health consequences. In fact the exact difference can be measured, and has been, multiple times: long-term Snus consumption causes an average lifespan reduction of between 2 and 10 weeks. A 6 week average lifespan reduction is about the median, from the many large-scale multi-decade studies that have been carried out. A 6-week lifespan reduction is almost certainly less than that attributable to an equivalent consumption volume of coffee, for example.

What they do is to say "tobacco" when the reality is that it's smoking doing the harm. Therefore when discussing the mortality or morbidity resulting from smoking, we should correctly describe it as 'smoking-related' not 'tobacco-related'. It is playing into the hands of the propagandists to say tobacco-related mortality (death rate) when what you actually mean is smoking-related mortality. Tobacco doesn't kill, smoking it does. The same thing applies to tea.


Addiction vs dependence
Modern usage of these terms has become specific. That is to say, where perhaps in the past they meant the same thing, for those in professions that work with the consequences, there is a growing difference in the exact meaning. Another related term is reinforcement.

Reinforcement = the potential of a material or activity to cause repeated consumption or repetition that may lead to dependence. Reinforcement is a critical though not necessarily vital stage of dependence.

Dependence = a need to keep consuming a material or performing an activity that is abnormal by average measurement, but that has no measurable elevation of risk. It may elevate risk but this is unmeasurable in terms of modern urban lifestyles. In other words, it may or may not do harm, but it is difficult or impossible to isolate that from the background noise in modern life (or no one has done so as yet). Coffee is currently seen as a dependence, where applicable; though it looks as if it will soon become fashionable to investigate harm caused by it, if any can be measured.

Addiction = a dependence that has significant risk of harm. Harm may be of many types including physical (and thus to health), economic or social, and in some cases the harms may by implication involve others. So an addiction can be to a harmful drug like her_oin, a harmful drug cocktail and/or delivery system like smoking, a gambling habit (due to the economic harm to the person and/or family); and the social harms inherent in the activity (smokers 'are lepers', gamblers are 'dangerous to know').

So when we discuss nicotine, the most that it can be ascribed in modern usage is a potential for dependence. Addiction is incorrect since no one has ever demonstrated that nicotine (not smoking) has measurable harms. The Snus and NRT data are very clear on this: nicotine consumption has no clinical significance, and in fact they have no statistical significance either (a smaller measure of impact).

Smoking is an addiction, nicotine consumption is a dependence. Nicotine dependence is created by smoking (and possibly by tobacco use other than smoking - this is unclear at this time), but there is certainly no good evidence base showing that it can be created except by tobacco consumption.

There is an interesting question regarding vaping: strictly speaking it is neither, since no one has either demonstrated it to be reinforcing among never-smokers (of course, we must use those unexposed to tobacco for this test), nor to have any risk elevation that might impact health. Some might perhaps assume the worst and regard it as having the potential for a statistically-measurable impact on health outcomes (around a 2% repeatedly-demonstrated effect); although the 'vectors' are not visible at this time (no materials in vapor can be ascribed any toxic potential that would significantly impact health - see Burstyn/Drexel etc.). The likelihood of it having any clinical significance (killing or causing serious disease in more than 3% of participants) seems rather small.

Thus, the pedantically-careful would be correct in describing vaping as a dependence, if only someone could reliably demonstrate it as producing clinically-significant levels of dependence in never-smokers. This also seems rather unlikely, given that there isn't a single clinical trial that reports pure nicotine can create dependence in even a single subject unexposed to tobacco, but multiple clinical trials where large quantities of nicotine were administered to never-smokers (numbering, in total, in the hundreds) for up to 6 months and not a single case of reinforcement never mind dependence was noted.

It is entirely likely that two or three people, somewhere, may become dependent on vaping when they have never been exposed to tobacco first (which certainly does create dependence on nicotine, but that's another story: a story of 9,600 other ingredients, potentiators and synergens). A few out of 10 or 20 million doesn't add up to much. Somehow it doesn't seem likely that vaping will shown as having clinical dependency issues.

I'm not even going to add a disclaimer to this, as the facts are the facts.
 

CabinetGuyScott

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WOW!

I want to be genius-smart like Roly when I grow up!!

(but at the tender age of 56, it's probably too darned late for that :laugh:)

This is a fantastic write-up, and goes on to my #1 FAQ list of bookmarks!!

I've long challenged the use of the term addiction, encouraged by Rolygate's writings, and this post states the case so very well.

Thank-you!



Terminology note

We should not perpetuate the propaganda efforts of the commercial and ideological opponents of vaping by using their wording. This method of skewing the debate is primarily seen in their successful attempt to equate smoking with tobacco, and their current attempt to do the same with smoking and nicotine.

What they do is lie prodigiously and repetitively, and eventually everyone (a) believes the lies and (b) starts to repeat their lies for them. It's a win-win...
...........
 

Novena

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Am I still addicted (or dependent, depending on the terminology you want to use) to nicotine? Maybe. I just quit cigarettes not quite 3 weeks ago. Smoked roughly a pack a day. Started out with 12mg nicotine in my juices because that's what the hubby was already using. Seems to be a good level for us. Would we be fine with a lower level, or no nicotine at all? Not sure, and don't really care to test that out yet. I actually read something the other day that theorized on how nicotine can actually make you smarter. I have no idea if there was a valid study behind that or just one guy's ramblings; I was just skimming articles on my phone. Regardless, there are far worse chemicals in cigarettes so if the only one I'm still putting in my body is nicotine, I think I'm still coming out ahead.
 
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