some thoughts on "dry leaf", legislation, and ECF

[macstrat]

Recently I came upon a thread from smoktek about a dry herb vaporizer. In that thread it stated that this will now be allowed. As a member of the forum I must oppose this for a number of reasons. The first and foremost being that dry herb or not, we are here to promote a healthier alternative to smoking, which these do not provide. Second, related to that thread, a "dry leaf" is a "dry leaf" don’t be an idiot and let yourself think otherwise. There is a difference between ignorance and naivety, this goes beyond being naive.

in regards to the ecigarette proposed bans, does anyone here even read what is being proposed or is everyone just fear mongering around the media, and single lines being taken out of context of the whole? If you want to play politics then don't take a lesson from the people of congress and we need to set an example for proper behavior. Don’t attack the idea, but attack the issues, this is a bargaining game, if we Hold steadfast, we WILL lose. ECF has always been the high standard in the ecigarette world and with all the clones, and now "dry leaf", it makes me very sad to see ECF becoming lax.

I have said my peace and if I get banned for it, then so be it. But if I do then this is just a reinforcement of my point. Remember why ECF was started, and do not abandon those morals just because they become inconvenient. Growth does not mean abandonment of principals

 

[st0nedpenguin]

Even ignoring the borderline definition of "dry leaf" that it brings up, the very idea of discussing tobacco vaporizers seems to completely contradict the entire point of an Electronic Cigarette Forum.

 

[jgilk1]

i have to agree with macstrat on this i dont think we should be discussing the vaporizing of any dry leaf no matter if it is tobacco or "other"

 

[GMayberry]

I agree with all posts here so far! Subscribing to this thread to follow for sure!

 

[oplholik]

I also agree. I was on SmokTek's site earlier, and was disappointed to see them carrying dry leaf vaporizers.

 

[rolygate]

Please read the announcement at:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/announcements-news/583320-new-policy-leaf-vaporizers.html

Thank you.

 

[macstrat]

I would like to address each one of those tems with a counter point.

1. There are many alternativs to smoking that have been used for years like patches, gum, cinnamon toothpicks, etc. in order to counter the physical and chemical adductions of traditional smoking. One of the benefits about ecigarettes with ejuice is that people get much less freaked out when we can tell them there are 4 ingredients, none of tem are tobacco and have the chemicals, and what the chemicals in the juice are used for and how they experience them, possible daily. While I’m not disagreeing that ecigarettes are not for everyone, I see the flaw in "tobacco harm reduction" when tobacco leaves are ACTUALLY being used.

2. "Dry leaf" vaporizers are only becoming more popular in the states where other things are legal also so that they can pull double duty. 99% of the people that I have encountered that have asked about these devices have other uses for them. There is no question or doubt in my mind about that. If we want to keep them legal and appeal to a wider audience, imho, we need to keep that distance from anything that could be considered even in the smallest way, illicit. We are already in an uphill battle and giving the opposition fodder, we’re doing nothing but damaging our reputation and strategy. This does not mean I think we should abandon those users though. I feel that we should fight one battle at a time instead of running head first without thinking about a strategy.

3. We do not even know the full ramifications for extreme long term use of traditional ecigs, and now we are dragging a new type of device into the mix? We are trying to distance ecigs from the use of "tobacco" so that we aren’t classified with smokers because we no longer are. We have busted our ... to lose the moniker of "smoker" and by allowing dry leaf vaporizers we are making a backwards step to that goal both socially and politically.

4. I go back to my comment about being naive. I do not know anyone that actually refers to other smokable products by their proper name, because of the stigma that certain things still carry. All we’re doing is giving another outlet for expression for alternate consumables and applying a different, politically correct, name. I can call a horse a moose, but that doesn’t change the animal’s basic genetic makeup or what the animal is used for.

5. What exactly do you consider "legitimate forms" of thr? The methods we have almost all tried and failed at, like patches? You even say yourself that you are an Ecig forum and by allowing, and trying to cater to everyone, we are doing nothing but clouding the matters at hand. While I am not discounting the fact that there are other forms of THR, the last thing that new vapors need is to be clouded with options. From my perspective it seems as if ECF can no longer see the path that it set out to accomplish and is shot gunning in order to try to find a path that is lucrative for them (not always monetarily)


Again I will state that many of the heads that can consume dry leave will consume anything that you put into them inc. oil, wax and the aforementioned leaves. You can call it whatever you like but by simply giving it a new name, you do nothing but allow for a subversive approach to a dangerous topic.

 

[mgmrick]

Wow... why would we want to go down that road?

 

[BlueSnake]

I thought I had already seen the beginning of the end, but this will truly be the end of vaping as we know it. Once we get lumped in with devices that can be used for other purposes we might as well just surrender. JMHO

 

[st0nedpenguin]

What is now allowed

Links to our registered suppliers websites where they discuss other uses
Suppliers can sell whatever they like on their sites
Suppliers can discuss whatever they like on their sites

Guessing that's not coincidence.

 

[mgmrick]

So this is the path ecf feels is the right way to go forward?

http://nypost.com/2014/06/26/philip-morris-to-debut-e-cig-with-real-tobacco/

 

[rolygate]

Up until now we have not allowed all forms of THR to be discussed (or the equipment sold) on ECF, because it seemed too difficult to handle the consequences: discussion of drug use with the same equipment.

Essentially that was a cop-out, and we needed to fix it. The time is right to fix it now.

We're always going to be an ecig forum that allows discussion of other THR routes. If you allow Snus then you should allow HnB tobacco use as well (heat-not-burn). One of the best ways I know to measure this is that the FDA have always shut down HnB products in the past - both HnB 'cigarettes' and hardware - and that means they must be good, they must work, they must be safer than smoking, and of course above all they must have a very good chance of attracting smokers away from cigarettes to something that will result in a reduction of smoking-related disease and smoking-related profits for the pharmaceutical industry. The FDA's job and main purpose is to protect the pharmaceutical industry: public health comes a very long way indeed behind protecting pharma.

So if they don't like it, it must be good, and be beneficial to public health, and reduce disease - QED.

Now the FDA is under pressure from the courts, and politically concerning their corruption, and have had to allow innovations they would never have permitted in the past. We will take advantage of that (we already are of course: the FDA tried and failed to shut down vaping in 2010). They learnt their lesson and will do a better job of it this time round.

 

[rolygate]

Related to this whole topic is the fact that big changes are coming - and this is a very minor change indeed on the scale of things.

Vaping is about to hit a brick wall, and ECF will be forced to make changes in order to survive. By summer 2017 both the USA and EU will have implemented plans to shut down vaping (apart from the cigarette industry's mini ecigs). That will result in a lot of changes, and even the disappearance of ECF if we can't react flexibly. Of course they will want to shut down ecig advertising and web sales as part of that assault - the EU has even put in place legislation that might allow them to shut down ecig forums. It looks as if most ecig product sales will have to go offshore, which means a massive reduction in product availability and a big rise in prices.

It's true that legal challenges to their regulations will take place, but it's a David and Goliath situation: those challenges will take millions of dollars, and we are up against a trillion dollar machine. Nobody knows what the outcome will be, but we're coming to the end of an era.

By mid 2017 you won't recognise vaping or ECF. The leaf vaporizer issue is a very minor one on that scale.

 

[BlueSnake]

I just hope this doesn't turn out to be the biggest mistake ECF has ever made. Time will tell.

 

[BlueSnake]

Related to this whole topic is the fact that big changes are coming - and this is a very minor change indeed on the scale of things.

Vaping is about to hit a brick wall, and ECF will be forced to make changes in order to survive. By summer 2017 both the USA and EU will have implemented plans to shut down vaping (apart from the cigarette industry's mini ecigs). That will result in a lot of changes, and even the disappearance of ECF if we can't react flexibly. Of course they will want to shut down ecig advertising and web sales as part of that assault - the EU has even put in place legislation that might allow them to shut down ecig forums. It looks as if most ecig product sales will have to go offshore, which means a massive reduction in product availability and a big rise in prices.

It's true that legal challenges to their regulations will take place, but it's a David and Goliath situation: those challenges will take millions of dollars, and we are up against a trillion dollar machine. Nobody knows what the outcome will be, but we're coming to the end of an era.

By mid 2017 you won't recognise vaping or ECF. The leaf vaporizer issue is a very minor one on that scale.

I absolutely believe this to be true. Unfortunately.

 

[classwife]

FWIW...

I don't know how many really know that we have an "Alternative" Forum for THR here in ECF...look at the dates of some of the discussion threads, clear back to 2008 :

Tobacco Harm Reduction

Nicotine Replacement Therapy
Smokeless tobacco
Miscellaneous

 

[exnihilo]

Proper vaporization is not combustion.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[macstrat]

so whats the line then? when do we say enough is enough and ant to keep things seperate, for ease of use adn information and protection? its a slippery slope to me that i would rather not slide down

 

[exnihilo]

Good question. Snus is considered THR, it's a leaf tobacco product. You tell me. The line is painted by the owners and proprietors of this site; is the correct answer.

 

[st0nedpenguin]

Soon after the government announces that they're essentially going to throw money at trolling the internet looking for ammo against ecigs, blurring the line between ecig and drug use on the biggest ecig forum on the planet seems like a pretty big backwards step.