St. Paul MN: ECigs Excluded from Latest Ban

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ratedPG

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...You, today, know that food is bad, but only because your GOVERNMENT stepped in and FORCED that information to be made available to you. period... [T]he core of Democracy depends on "mob rule", in a general context...That is what the Founding Fathers built, Democracy.
So...the only way to know anything is if our Government tells us so? I have a hard time believing the average person can't determine a diet of greasy fries and burgers and sugary shakes isn't exactly health food, entirely on their own. You don't need to know the % DV of carbs to figure that out. The folks that subsist on junk food didn't change their behavior based on a list of tiny numbers on their food wrappers.

And it deserves to be said again: a Representative Republic is NOT a Democracy. Despite what the school textbooks say, America is not, and has never been, a Democracy.

A Democracy is three foxes and two chickens deciding what's for dinner. ;)
 

Vicks Vap-oh-Yeah

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Perhaps you missed it when, in the early 90s McDonalds was forced by LAW to offer and post their nutritional information. That law has mostly been since thwarted, but it was an attempt to educate the masses so they could make an _informed_ decision, one that up to that point they couldn't make because they didn't know that food was bad.

I also have to comment on this particular post....

I didn't need the government to tell me that eating food of this nature would not be healthy in the long run.....common sense told me that a diet of burgers and fries, washed down with sugar water, with no other balancing factors (and pickles do NOT count as a full serving of vegetables, here!!!) would turn me into a quivvering mound of fat...

And what good did the government mandate do, anyway - they posted their info in tiny print in the BROOM CLOSET with no light so you couldn't read it, anyway.....
 

Savantster

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So...the only way to know anything is if our Government tells us so? I have a hard time believing the average person can't determine a diet of greasy fries and burgers and sugary shakes isn't exactly health food, entirely on their own.

First, you're making a specious argument. You're trying to use an extreme to undermine something unrelated. That is, on the one hand it is clear people "can" learn details without the government telling them so, but you also have to acknowledge that government is what forces places to make certain information available to you. That is where "watchdog groups" find out things the "average public" doesn't know, then tries to get the information out.

I understand you might have a hard time understanding just how ignornat the 'average person' is, but evidence is all around you. A _very_ surprising number of people in this country don't know how many States we have, and I'm pretty sure everyone that went to public school was told that info. It's pretty easy for me to understand just how ignorant the masses are.

Additionally, the point of the law was to make it "readily available" information so people didn't have to go out of their way to get "pertinant info".. That is, we have BILLIONS of things we'd have to go looking up, individually, as citizens, if we wanted to know everything there is to know about the things we want to buy/consume, and, when you get into the science of it, now you're talking things that 50% or more of the society would _never_ be able to comprehend. So, who would it be then, that would review that "technical information" and make sure the product was "safe" for us to use? or at least say "that's dangerous, you must warn people of that"?

Clearly, we're back to the role of Government being to protect us.

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."


You don't need to know the % DV of carbs to figure that out. The folks that subsist on junk food didn't change their behavior based on a list of tiny numbers on their food wrappers.

But it DID allow them better information to make (supposedly) informed decisions about. ... and, how can you say you don't think the masses are that ignorant when it was right there in black and white just how dangerous this stuff is for you, and they still make it their sole source of food? duh?

The fact that it's there allows those who are coming up now to see just how bad that food is.

And it deserves to be said again: a Representative Republic is NOT a Democracy. Despite what the school textbooks say, America is not, and has never been, a Democracy.

A Democracy is three foxes and two chickens deciding what's for dinner. ;)

Then, the fact that the public votes, by each person, to decide who represents them in their government, that's not a "democratic process"? Granted, we're seeing how gaming of our current elctoral system can thwart the will of the people, but the obvious intent is that our "leadership" is "elected" by the "general concensus", or, democracy.

What you don't want is for every person to vote on every measure that is to be decided as law, but we DO have a mechanism whereby the public CAN demand that that happen with specific measures.. ballot initiatives?

So, clearly, we're running on some kind of hybrid system, right? And in that system, it's clear to me that our "elected leaders" have a job to protect us and to help make our lives easier. If that means telling companies that they can't profit by tricking children, then I'm all for it. When it comes to laws that are not based on logic and reason (i.e. science or studies showing facts/trends), those I have a problem with.
 

Savantster

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I also have to comment on this particular post....

I didn't need the government to tell me that eating food of this nature would not be healthy in the long run.....common sense told me that a diet of burgers and fries, washed down with sugar water, with no other balancing factors (and pickles do NOT count as a full serving of vegetables, here!!!) would turn me into a quivvering mound of fat...

And what good did the government mandate do, anyway - they posted their info in tiny print in the BROOM CLOSET with no light so you couldn't read it, anyway.....

common sense based on data you were given as a child that the "elected representatives" deemed important to make sure you knew, to help you better protect yourself in your life. Eating healthy, or at least being given the chance to understand what that is, and how to do it, is something out government says needs to be taught to kids in schools. So, your point simply reinforces my point. Thanks.


And I agree, hiding that info in a closet doesn't help the public, and it thwarts the spirit of what that law was meant to do. I'm guessing the fast food lobby .....ed and .....ed until there was a loophole put in (or found, like leaving the broom closet door unlocked which made it publicly accessible, and skirts the law).. and that probably happened because sales probably slipped when people saw how one "value meal" consisted of their entire day's calories, and 200% of the "bad fats" they should eat on any given day.. Now, out of site, out of mind.

And that 60% of our society is dangerously over weight, with 40% being considered obese, it's clear "common sense" isn't all that common.
 

ninjapuff

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Nov 28, 2008
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A new St. Paul ordinance banning "imitation tobacco products and novelty lighters" specifically mentions and excludes ecigs. I presume, but don't know, that this is because Ruyan America is headquartered in Minneapolis. Unfortunately that won't help folks who like beef jerky or convenient storage tins.

Section 295.02 of the Saint Paul Legislative code

Sec. 295.02. Definitions.

(1) "Imitation Tobacco Product" means either: any edible non-tobacco product designed to resemble a tobacco product; or any non-edible non-tobacco product designed to resemble a tobacco product that is intended to be used by children as a toy.
Examples of imitation tobacco products include, but are not limited to, candy or chocolate cigarettes, bubble gum cigars, shredded bubble gum resembling spit tobacco, and shredded beef jerky in containers resembling snuff tins. An electronic cigarette is not an imitation tobacco product.

It's interesting to see that e-cigs are specifically mentioned in this. I had no idea that Ruyan was headquartered here (I live in St. Paul), but I guess that explains all the e-cig news coming out of Minnesota.

As a kid, I used to buy candy cigarettes, and I definitely think they had an effect on me smoking as an adult. One of the candy cigarette varieties was Cools, and that's one of the first brands of cigarettes I smoked.

However, I strongly disagree that a law should be passed banning them. Whatever may influence children is none of the government's business. It's not the government's job to watch and raise and influence children; that's the parent's job. If it was the government's job to keep children safe by keeping tobacco-like candy away from then, then it's obvious that the government already failed miserably at it. Candy cigarettes were all the rage for children 25 years ago, but I haven't even seen them in stores in the last 15 years.

If parents are relying on the government to keep their children safe from a product, it's likely that the children will be all grown up and the damage already done by the time the government even recognizes that it's a problem.
 
Smo, any of us that live in the US that: Ride Motorcycles, 4-wheelers, Jet Skis, or Hunt/Fish, and yes, smoke know this isn't really the country of freedom. There seems to be a group of people in this country whose goal is to find people enjoying themselves and make them stop. Even if they're not hurting anyone or anything else.


You sure spoke the truth there Old Biker!
 

SnarkyClark

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Mar 13, 2009
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Savantster said:
Take that to the next step.. You, today, know that food is bad, but only because your GOVERNMENT stepped in and FORCED that information to be made available to you. period.

Are you actually being serious? The ONLY way I knew that fast food is bad is because of a silly law? You are making one heck of an assumption and insulting just about everyone's intelligence.

I kinda figured most people knew fast food was generally not good for you, even I knew that when I was 6 years old. Oh wait, my parents taught me that. And the natural order of human society rolls on...

Savantster said:
NO NO NO! .. COMPANIES do NOT enjoy FREE SPEACH!!!!!!

WTF is wrong with you people? HUMANS have rights, NOT companies.

this is why this country is totally ****ed. People can't seem to understand that _companies_ are _vehicles_ of moving wealth, NOT people, not citizens, not something worthy of rights.

stop confusing humans with companies.

Calm down! Easy - deep breaths and all. Please explain to me EXACTLY WHERE I said that companies have free speech? You can't, because I specifically didn't:

Me said:
This is like the basic foundation of free speech. You can't say "most speech is ok most of the time" - you have to say "ALL speech is ok ALL of the time", or "only approved speech is ok when we say it is". No matter how much we wish it so, anything in between is untenable in a human society.

See? I didn't say that. I didn't imply that. I didn't state that.

Maybe that is one reason why "this is why this country is totally ****ed", People can't seem to understand that assumptions are dangerous to rational thought. They also can seem to help themselves from always trying to read 'in between the lines'.

So please stop putting words in my mouth that I did not speak (write), as I am being courteous enough to not do the same to you :p
 

ratedPG

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Savantster said:
You're trying to use an extreme to undermine something unrelated.
Reducto ad absurdum. :D

Savantster said:
I understand you might have a hard time understanding just how ignorna[n]t the 'average person' is, but evidence is all around you. A _very_ surprising number of people in this country don't know how many States we have...
A recent Gub'ment study shows that 50% of all Americans are below average. ;) (Even a person in a Very High Position of Power recently mis-stated the number of states, setting them at, I believe, fifty-seven.)

Savantster said:
That is, we have BILLIONS of things we'd have to go looking up, individually, as citizens, if we wanted to know everything there is to know about the things we want to buy/consume...
Wow...if only there was some sort of, I don't know, a personal home computer interconnected network, a 'web' of information if you will, that would enable the average citizen to look stuff up...:rolleyes:

Hey, look, I'm back on topic: Yay! E-cigs are not an "imitation tobacco product" in St. Paul! A small step, maybe, but a definite foot-in-the-door precedent for positive legislation.
 

TMK2009

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Mar 9, 2009
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Indiana
I for one have kids and have always been upfront with them on many "adult" subjects. I am not a parent that thinks the government needs to protect my child. I do this myself through reading talking to them making them aware of the world they live in. Candy cigs and pouches of gum do not make an addict!! You do if you don't give them the tools to see the difference!!! The whole problem with society today is no one wants to accept personal responsability! So we have a **** ton of worthless laws that trash peoples rights to even make a choice.

This is no different than saying video games and fantasy RPG create monsters out of our kids. I grew up playing all types of these games. I am sane, rational and know the difference between fantasy and reality. So does my 8 year old because I taught him the difference. To say you need some watchdog commitee to point out lies is just saying you want someone else to blame when it goes wrong. As for the ignorant and stupid people I see no need to protect them. If we spent less time protecting them society as a whole would be much better off in my opinion.
 
common sense based on data you were given as a child that the "elected representatives" deemed important to make sure you knew, to help you better protect yourself in your life. Eating healthy, or at least being given the chance to understand what that is, and how to do it, is something out government says needs to be taught to kids in schools. So, your point simply reinforces my point. Thanks.

Making the companies post the info was all well and good. an informed public is better as a whole. BUT to then take a way the ability to make an informed choice based on that info is wrong.
 
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