Sub-Ohm Vaping/Battery Safety Quiz

[gotch23]

Would be kind of nice with such a test.
Could help rookies to feel more secure in their knowledge.

What would be even better though, would be a mandatory course
for vapeshop employees, so they can say the correct stuff to their customers.
I'd be all for that kind of regulation- But the reality is actually really horrifying.
The FDA FORBIDS the vape shops to thell the customers anything about their new device. Scandalous.

Here's your noisy cricket. Have fun. Nope, can't tell you anything about it.

 

[Cheallaigh]

why do we call it the noisy cricket? well gee have you seen that men in black movie? oh you have? great, we can talk about that noisy cricket! no, no, no, we cannot talk about the other one! so about MiB...

 

[AndrewxW_]

Sorry for all the questions guys, I just need to know.

1. Why does Sony list their VTC5 batteries with a 30A continous discharge rate when it is actually 20A?
This would make it more dangerous when you don't know the true values of the CDR, but people still call it the "best battery".etc? Why?

2. Say for example that I have a 3.7V 20A battery and a resistance of 0.2ohms, and the minimum resistance it can go is 0.19 which equals to 19.4736842A. Would I need some variance/headspace for this? or will it be fine?
(I'm obviously not going to be building coils that low but I just used it as an example.)

*EDIT FOR QUESTION2* Okay, I think I solved this question.
Short Answer (TL;DR) = Definitely leave some room for safety
Source:

At 15:43 he says:
"You wanna make sure you leave yourself some room, for safety sakes, Okay? Don't build all the way down as low as you possibly build, just to blow big clouds or whatever. Don't build all the way down exactly so you can hit that 20Amp Limit. What if there's air? What if there is variance? What if your Ohm Reader's not right? What if it's off by 2%?"

Just a quote from the video to help other vapers coming my way and learning new sub-ohming, mechanical mods, battery safety.etc.

 

[Cheallaigh]

good question, I'd love to know as well.

 

[daviedog]

The vtc5 is a 20 amp cell.
In 2014 a load of fakes flooded the market.
Go to liionwholesale.com for a tutorial,,fakes, discharge curves..

 

[Baditude]

1. Why does Sony list their VTC5 batteries with a 30A continous discharge rate when it is actually 20A?
This would make it more dangerous when you don't know the true values of the CDR, but people still call it the "best battery".etc? Why?

Not many people are calling the Sony VTC5 the "best battery". Who are you listening to?

Battery Mooch, the expert previously mentioned, is high on the newer Sony VTC5A, a 25 amp 2500mAh battery Sony VTC5A 2500mAh 18650 Bench Test Results...a fantastic 25A battery!. It could be argued that the Samsung 30Q, LG HG2, Sony VTC6, and AW also fit the bill as "best battery" with 20 amps and 3000mAh, a nice combination of mAh and amp rating. Who has the best 3000mAh battery? -- LG HG2 vs Samsung 30Q vs Sony VTC6 Shootout




Determining the "best battery" ultimately boils down to what application will you be using the battery for? Some low wattage vapers (less than 15 watts) could safely use the higher capacity of the 10 amp battery class. High Capacity Battery Shootout at 10A -- Bench Test Results...surprising winners! For those vapers who require a true 30 amp battery: Which is the best performer: HB2 vs HB4 vs HB6?


To answer your above question, Sony has never said the VTC5 is a 30 amp battery, but a lot of battery resellers and vendors have. Within the battery industry, there is a lot of deception and competition. Probably at least half of the battery brands exaggerate their batteries' specifications, especially those brands who rebrand or rewrap other manufacturer's batteries and sell them off as their own. Having Battery Mooch come along, an independent battery tester, is a Godsend to all vapers to allow consumers to make an intelligent choice in choosing the battery which best meets their application.

Lg, Samsung, and Sony top Mooch's recommended battery lists because as manufacturers they do not over-rate their battery specifications. It then falls upon the consumer to purchase from reputable resellers & vendors to attempt to avoid purchasing counterfeits. In the past, the top batteries have been counterfeited: AW, Samsung25R, Sony VTC4/5, and LG HG2. I predict we will soon be seeing fake Samsung 30Q or fake Sony VTC5A and Sony VTC6 batteries within the next year.

Exactly why 18650 battery names like VTC4, VTC5, Samsung 25R, are confusing everybody


Are You Using a Rewrap (Rebranded) Battery?

• Learn what a rewrap cell is. If you are using rebranded cells, does that mean it is inferior, poor quality, or even dangerous? Which batteries are suspected to be rebranded batteries?

Battery Basics for Mods: The Definative Battery Guide for Vaping

• A popular and essential read to understand which batteries are safe to use in mechanical and regulated mods. Includes a frequently updated list of recommended safe-chemistry, high-drain batteries with their specifications.

 

[KenD]

Sorry for all the questions guys, I just need to know.

2. Say for example that I have a 3.7V 20A battery and a resistance of 0.2ohms, and the minimum resistance it can go is 0.19 which equals to 19.4736842A. Would I need some variance/headspace for this? or will it be fine?
(I'm obviously not going to be building coils that low but I just used it as an example.).

You calculate the amp draw based on the fully charged voltage, 4.2v. That 0.19Ω coil has an amp draw of a bit over 22 amps. That's for mech mods. The amp draw on regulated mods is calculated differently, and resistance doesn't factor in on them.

Sent from my M7_PLUS using Tapatalk

 

[daviedog]

They need to be doing those every year I think

You're right, but think of the Lines. I'm a Florida native but efficiency is not our long suit..

 

[VHRB2014]

How would I know the exact constant discharge rate of a battery? Do I use a DVOM?

Hi Andrew. So far you`v gotten a lot of good advice, most of this has been answered. I will tell you I use two battery brands and models exclusively. Sony VTC4`s which is "rated" a 30 amp CDR (Personally I would never try to draw a full 30 amps out of a single cell, becasue it would run like poop), and Samsung 25R which have a realistic 22 amp CDR. I can run most of my .25 builds on either, which is my most common build. For the few builds I have that go below (.23 to .18) I will run them on a dual parallel mod (It`s usually required anyways due to the amount of wire being used).

Once you get your sense of battery's and amps draw down pat, you need to address what a good insulator is. Any mod is only as good as its insulator and some cheaper mods are crap and dangerous and most are OK and some are superb. You want to be able to look at it and tell it wont arc over or melt or collapse, or has manufacturing problem that will result in any of the later.

Lastly, I make sure all my mods have good venting, because no matter how careful you are and how much attention you put into it, things happen. Most mod makers treat venting like noting more than an after thought, when it should be an integral and primary concept of design. Battery's may not be perfect or insulators might melt if you push them too hard or your coils might ground, anything can happen. Once you know your venting is good you can put that worry to bed. To this end I look at every mod I have and if it wont vent easily and reliably, I drill holes in it to make sure it will. Some wont like this some wont think its necessary, but for me, it gives a lot more piece of mind than even knowing what my battery and coil add up to. Once you have reliable venting, venting that will work, the bomb factor is totally put to rest. I just picked up a Panzer G3 mostly due to the fact that venting is a primary concept in its design, its wonderful.

Each of the mods below have a two holes drilled in the upper part of the tube (The Manhattan on the right has two on top and two on bottom) that are specifically for venting. These are drilled right above where the battery sits so they are not blocked by the battery or threads from the top cap. Some might think it is not very pretty, but to me they say I know what I am doing, and I can do it safely.

BOL, :?)

 

[Topwater Elvis]

The VTC4 is not a 30a CDR cell.

 

[Baditude]

The VTC4 is not a 30a CDR cell.

Agreed. @VHRB2014, Mooch has a great explanation in his review why it is not a true 30 amp CDR cell, and why in his bench tests he gives it a 23 amp CDR.

Sony VTC4 2000mAh 18650 Retest Results...a great 23A 2100mAh battery

 

[VHRB2014]

The VTC4 is not a 30a CDR cell.

I know this is debatable and changed the wording a little bit.
I do know I can push the 4 much harder than the 5. My 5`s got a little discolored on builds where the 4`s did`nt, :?(

 

[KenD]

I know this is debatable and changed the wording a little bit.
I do know I can push the 4 much harder than the 5. My 5`s got a little discolored on builds where the 4`s did`nt, :?(

Not debateable. The 23 amp cdr is established in Mooch's tests. The vtc5 has lower cdr.

Sent from my M7_PLUS using Tapatalk

 

[AndrewxW_]

Alright, now I'm having trouble picking a battery. I can't tell if the Sony VTC5 is a safe battery or not because of the different CDR ratings.

What is a battery you guys would recommend to me?
I'm thinking of either keeping my VTC5 or changing to a more reliable battery that is:
1. More safe
2. Has a high reputable rating for beginners
3. Has alot of room to work with for a beginner that knows the prerequisites of coil building, sub-ohm vaping, battery safety, ohm's law.etc. and wants to make a start.

I'm probably going to be building coils at the minimum of 0.25ohms (but mostly will be building at around 0.5-0.8 until I get familiar), and want at least 5amps of headspace/variance from the battery CDA rating, just to be safe as a beginner, you know what they say "better safe than sorry".

 

[KenD]

Alright, now I'm having trouble picking a battery. I can't tell if the Sony VTC5 is a safe battery or not because of the different CDR ratings.

What is a battery you guys would recommend to me?
I'm thinking of either keeping my VTC5 or changing to a more reliable battery that is:
1. More safe
2. Has a high reputable rating for beginners
3. Has alot of room to work with for a beginner that knows the prerequisites of coil building, sub-ohm vaping, battery safety, ohm's law.etc. and wants to make a start.

I'm probably going to be building coils at the minimum of 0.25ohms, and want at least 5amps of headspace/variance from the battery CDA rating, just to be safe as a beginner, you know what they say "better safe than sorry".

The vtc5 is a good and reliable battery. 20 amp cdr.

Sent from my M7_PLUS using Tapatalk

 

[Baditude]

Can someone list the subjects I need to study and know before I jump into mech mods?

A Beginner's Guide to Your First Mechanical Mod

Understand that with a mech you have no protection circuitry from a processor to guard against short circuits like atomizer shorts, reverse battery protection, battery over-discharge, and pushing the battery beyond its limits. The only protection is what's between your ears.

Know the amp limits (continuous discharge rate) of your battery, and use the coil resistance that the battery can safely fire. I recommend following Mooch's table of batteries with their amp ratings. Use the below Ohm's Law calculator to figure out what resistance is safe to use with the particular battery you choose.

18650 Battery Safety Grades -- Picking a Safe Cell to Vape With

Explain it to the Dumb Noob: Ohm's Law Calculations

How would I know the exact constant discharge rate of a battery? Do I use a DVOM?

As stated already, the average consumer can not test this at home. We have to find the data sheets of the battery manufacturer to find the continuous discharge rate (if they even list it), or find the test results of independent researchers like Mooch (see first link above). Lg, Samsung, and Sony are pretty reliable in publishing the true CDR of their batteries. However most of the lesser brands (Efest, Imren, MXJO, etc) tend to over-rate their battery specs so we have to again rely upon independent testers for the info. You can't always rely upon what's printed on the battery or on what many vendors advertise.

Purple Efest Batteries Not As Advertised

Are You Using a Rewrap (Rebranded) Battery?

 

[Baditude]

Alright, now I'm having trouble picking a battery. I can't tell if the Sony VTC5 is a safe battery or not because of the different CDR ratings.

What is a battery you guys would recommend to me?
I'm thinking of either keeping my VTC5 or changing to a more reliable battery that is:
1. More safe
2. Has a high reputable rating for beginners
3. Has alot of room to work with for a beginner that knows the prerequisites of coil building, sub-ohm vaping, battery safety, ohm's law.etc. and wants to make a start.

I'm probably going to be building coils at the minimum of 0.25ohms (but mostly will be building at around 0.5-0.8 until I get familiar), and want at least 5amps of headspace/variance from the battery CDA rating, just to be safe as a beginner, you know what they say "better safe than sorry".

Choose one of the 20 amp CDR batteries listed below in Mooch's diagrahm. You can't really go wrong.

I'm not so sure one battery brand/model is "more safe" than another as long as you are using genuine battery made by LG, Samsung, or Sony (purchased from a reputable dealer) and not abusing the battery beyond its CDR by using the appropriate resistance coils (for a mechanical). Rebranded batteries are another matter, because you never know what cell is under the wrap, and the fact that most rebranded batteries have exagerated specs.

• If you use sub-ohm resistance coils (0.2 - 0.8 ohms) on a mech mod or high wattage (20 watts +) regulated mod, your first priority must be for a high amp IMR battery of 20 - 30 amps CDR (maximum continuous discharge rate). Coils under the resistance of 1.0 ohm require more amp power due to their higher amp draw. Use the appropriate battery with an adequate amp rating depending upon the current draw of your coil build (*see the chart immediately below for coil amp draw vs amp rating).

* Coil amp draw from Ohm's Law calculations for Mechanical Mods:
1.0 ohm = 4.2 amp draw
0.9 ohm = 4.6 amp draw
0.8 ohm = 5.2 amp draw
0.7 ohms = 6 amp draw
0.6 ohms = 7 amp draw
0.5 ohms = 8.4 amp draw
0.4 ohms = 10.5 amp draw
0.3 ohms = 14.0 amp draw
0.2 ohms = 21.0 amp draw
0.1 ohms = 42.0 amp draw
0.0 ohms = dead short = battery goes into thermal runaway

 

[VHRB2014]

Not debateable. The 23 amp cdr is established in Mooch's tests. The vtc5 has lower cdr.

Sent from my M7_PLUS using Tapatalk

I will agree that my own experience has shown that performance decreases to an unacceptable level if trying to use either of these Sony`s, VTC4 or VTC 5 past 21 amps, with the way I vape (MTL, 5-6 sec hits/pulses. I have not found a build I enjoy past that, its either too hot, or ramp up time suffers to the point it is no longer enjoyable.

The debate comes down to the individual user, their experience level, how they vape, and what level of safety they choose. Personally I agree, but others, may beat it back and forth ad infinitum. I am the boss of me, myself an I, and that`s two too many people already.

 

[Cheallaigh]

see there in lies my frustration...
you can go to a store and as an example buy the 60w dripboxes, and the store sells you the lg hg2's... technically it's a mech mod(yes I know it's not some great old school pipe mod etc), though they say they have some protection, but not what. now the coils it comes with? and the premades you can buy? 0.2... so really according to what I've read I shouldn't use those batteries with it... my solution was simple, I just rebuilt the coils to be .3, my hubby doesn't want to buy more batteries right now since we have 8 of the hg2s. at no point was I informed though by a store for something considered a "starter". they seriously say nothing. so I decided to look online, for my Canadian go to websites... 1 out of 5 had better than hg2 style most had efests.

 

[puffon]

...and as a battery ages CDR rating decreases.