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Switched's battery FAQ

Discussion in 'IkenVape' started by VaporMadness, Sep 3, 2010.

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  1. VaporMadness

    VaporMadness Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 26, 2010
    CA, USA
  2. HzG8rGrl

    HzG8rGrl Trippy Tip Hoarder Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Nov 11, 2009
    *The Swamp*
    Thanks VM. Kinda hard to find everything with the house having moved all the furniture around.
    I keep banging my shins-LOL.
    EDIT: I hadn't even noticed the updated site. Gotta remember to go check often. Life has been a whirlwind of living for the past few months.
     
  3. Vaporologist

    Vaporologist Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    May 26, 2010
    Epic Journey
  4. Switched

    Switched ECF Guru ECF Veteran

    Feb 18, 2010
    Dartmouth, NS Canada
    You are welcome folks.

    I Did a little house cleaning myself before the move LOL. There was too much info scattered all over the place. When Isaac and I were discussing batteries at one point I told him I would draft up a FAQ for his site. The rest is history :)
     
  5. aspen

    aspen Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 1, 2009
    Ca.
    I also would like to give a huge Thank You to Switch and Isaac for putting forth the effort to get this done. Not only was it needed but it has been laid out very effectively. This will help a lot of people who would never have the time to bother (me included) and create a safer enviroment for all vapers. This has been needed since day one to help all of us understand batteries, It sure has helped me.
    Thank you to the both of you for putting together a condensed form for all of us to use. This is a huge accomplishment.
     
  6. Drozd

    Drozd Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Nov 7, 2009
    NW Ohio
    very nicely done man.... only a few things that I'd have added... as far as comparing the Li-Ions and the LiMN and safety issues.... those being the temp thresholds of the battery for thermal runaway..... and touching on the all better cells have internal built in protection (LiMN included) (a PTC resistor and a CID device (*and those are enough for some manufacturers to call a battery protected)) and Li-Ions have the PCB as an additional level (which can fail due to charger issues or static electricity and not be noticed visibly) both pieces of info are already found on pages in your links though:

    Lithium-ion safety concerns (second and third bold section)

    possibly this link to a battery autopsy and understanding protection:
    The anatomy of a Protected Battery - CandlePowerForums

    but what you wrote was fantasticly comprehensive while being simple enough for all....
     
  7. Switched

    Switched ECF Guru ECF Veteran

    Feb 18, 2010
    Dartmouth, NS Canada
    Drozd,

    You da man! I will always raise my hat to your in depth knowledge. I will indeed amend my blog accordingly and ask for Isaac to do the same. At the end of the day, it is all about battery safety. Because batteries (due to vaping in part) are constantly changing, we must be overly vigilant of the updates. I thank you for pointing out these issues and will amend the article accordingly.
     
  8. Drozd

    Drozd Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Nov 7, 2009
    NW Ohio
    nah you're aces....you were motivated enough to put all that together and it's clear...
    I'd been meaning to write something similar myself...but always either procrastinated or it came out muddled and confusingly written...
    I salute you sir....

    I only point out those few things.....because well they help solidify part of the protected vs non debate as well as the ICR vs IMR debate which you decently touched on but still felt a little glossed over (if that makes any sense)... and well the battery dicetion thread is nice because it does help the visual learners when things like PTC, PCB, and CID start getting tossed about and could only serve to accentuate your writing
     
  9. voltaire

    voltaire Super Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 4, 2009
    Florida
    Good work! You know, that FAQ is so comprehensive, I think it would be good to have a quick note about the proper disposal (environmentally-speaking) of lithium batteries.

    Lithium batteries don't have the horrible toxins like Ni-Cads (cadmium), so they *can* be just thrown away and sent to the landfill. But just because they can be, doesn't mean they should be - there's a lot in them that can be recycled - cobalt, copper, nickel and iron. And recycling them is as easy as dropping them in a box the next time you go to Home Depot, Target, Wal-Mart, Radioshack, or Bestbuy.

    Just go here and type in your zip-code to find the nearest location:
    Call2Recycle US >

    If you think of the sheer number of batteries that all of us vapers use and ultimately toss, (then add in all the laptop, cellphone, misc. gadget batteries) we can make a difference while being collectively responsible.
     
  10. Switched

    Switched ECF Guru ECF Veteran

    Feb 18, 2010
    Dartmouth, NS Canada
    Having had the time to review the links provided, it does add a great deal of depth into both questions. That being said, we might be getting a little too technical for the average user. The first link can already be found in the links of interest at the end of the FAQ sheet. Notwithstanding, the information is to important to be omitted, OTOH too technical for this particular application. Problem solver, add both links in the appropriate answers :) (for those who want to go into the weeds)

    Once again thank you for pointing out these important omissions. :toast:
     
  11. Pyloric Thinker

    Pyloric Thinker Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 13, 2010
    Campbell, CA
    Hey Switched,
    Since you've been pronounced the battery expert around here I have a question for you! I purchased a variable voltage device that uses rcr123a stacked. On their thread people seem to be going back and forth about IMR vs Lithium. I'm curious what your recommendation would be. Of course I'll be choosing AW regardless of the chemistry, but what I like about their Lithiums is the 200maH increase from their IMR's. Will both of these work fine? Or will I need the high drains for variable voltage? The device in question is the Ali'i VV if that helps you with your answer. It won't be ready for a month so no need to get back to me right away, but honestly you are one of the few people I've heard on these forums that is able to really articulate, with a fair amount of certainty, the does and don'ts of battery usage. Thank you

    Ryan
     
  12. Switched

    Switched ECF Guru ECF Veteran

    Feb 18, 2010
    Dartmouth, NS Canada
  13. Iken

    Iken Unregistered Supplier ECF Veteran

    Jan 23, 2009
    PA,USA
    Hey Ryan,
    I'm not much of battery expert per say. I would believe that since the IMR's tolerances are much higher than li-ion. Logically, I would think that the IMR can take more punishment of fluctuating voltages on demand and preform more steadily stable over li-ion. They do deliver a steady stream of 4.19V till the very end as li-ion will show 4.19V for a remainder of 15-20 minutes prior to being fully charged then drop down (depending on manufacture) 3.8-9V - 4.0V. It can be unpredictable. I'm not too sure if this inconsistency can play a major role in variable voltage.
     
  14. VaporMadness

    VaporMadness Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 26, 2010
    CA, USA
    The IMRs are probably a better choice since they can provide the hi current demand and do so "safely".

    Do you know the Ali'i uses a switching voltage regulator or a linear voltage regulator? The current demand placed on the power source should be greater with a linear voltage regulator. I think regardless of how low you set the voltage, the same current will be drawn off the power source, just the amount of power delivered to the atty vs shed in the linear regulator will change. Whereas a switching regulator should be more frugal, drawing less current from the power source as the voltage is dialed down.

    If the Ali'i uses a linear voltage regulator... all the more reason to use the IMRs.

    Th ECF's faq on rechargable batts looks like a good resource for batt info these days too...
    http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/ecf-library/129569-rechargeable-batteries.html
    ... in particular look at the "Why do batteries explode" section that mentions RCR123 batts in particular.
     
  15. Pyloric Thinker

    Pyloric Thinker Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 13, 2010
    Campbell, CA
    Thanks guys! You have no idea how fortunate I feel to have access to your brains every now and then! People explain things and part of me believes them and another part questions their logic. It always comes off as a sales pitch or something. Knowing you guys have gone through the paces with these cells and know the ins and outs makes me feel so much more confident by proxy. I can't that you all enough! Sorry to call Switched out here, but he seemed to be the one around these parts that has done the most research on batteries. I figured if Isaac was willing to defer to Switched for the battery faq he must know his stuff! Hope all is well with you guys.
     
  16. Switched

    Switched ECF Guru ECF Veteran

    Feb 18, 2010
    Dartmouth, NS Canada
    Sorry Ryan I edited my post today. It was lengthy and provided a good explanation but in my haste to reply and get out the door there was an important omission. That is why you see the post you see as an edited version.

    Since the FAQ many things have surfaced wrt batteries etc... that is how quick this world we live in evolves. The FAQ is pretty much accurate but could improve. That is why many had the idea of a FAQ but never launched one. Not that the data is innacurate or incomplete, but it was meant for a beginner visiting Isaac's site and not a compendium of where we are today.

    If I have a better understanding wrt batteries today compared to when I wrote the FAQ, it is because of the interactions an exchange of information with many members here and the rest of the forum. The FAQ was a compendium of the known facts and discussions that took place at the time.

    It is also to be understood that I prefer "protected" batts over safer chemistry, even Battery U recommends this. At the same time, a PCB is prone to fail just like any other electronic component. My inaccuracy in my reply this am did not come from inaccurate information but rather incomplete information, to wit: using the proper atomizer with the batteries used. Now since folks do not do this, then the recommendation supports the IMR because they will withstand the torture us vapers put them through. That is a responsible answer IMO.

    Some vapers go after heat at all cost (wattage) other target a specific region of said wattage (me) and will adjust batteries and atomizers accordingly, to not only suit a particular vaping style but use the batteries for maximum efficiency. I use Isaac's 5.2 atties at 6 volts. Why? It puts me bang on at around 7 watts, but yet the atty is only consuming 1.15A. In a regulated VV device this is pure bliss and something the RCR 123s are capable of delivering. All bets are off if I was to introduce a 3 or 3.5Ohm atty into the equation which is looking for a 2-1.7A power supply.

    Yes I have a knowledge of batteries in general. But it doesn't stop there IMO. Hence my reply IMRs all the way because they cover the largest spectrum for the average vaper.

    In closing mAh is not the be all and end all when it comes to batteries, nor is watts the be all and end all towards vaping satisfaction. Finding the sweet spot and achieving that sweet spot with the proper atty/battery combo is, IMHO. Then when looks at battery performance time ... I hope this make sense and helps.
     
  17. Pyloric Thinker

    Pyloric Thinker Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 13, 2010
    Campbell, CA
    I come to you with yet another question! I read your posts and have taken your advice accordingly. I'm really liking IMR and LifePo for a non VV mod I have because of the consistency I get from the voltage. I just wasn't getting this with Li-ion cells. With cartos I would just take a longer draw and all was well, but I refuse to do this with atties as you all have made me aware that longer draws=shorter lives.

    My question is about a wf-138 (16340) charger I have. I got it about a month ago and have been using it pretty consistently since then. It's a great charger; quick charge time (about 1.25 hours from drained), batteries are always cool to luke warm right off the charger, and minimal over charge (non if I watch them like I should). I've been using it exclusively at the 3V setting as I don't have my VV device yet and have not need to charge my IMRs. This charger hisses when I first put my cells on. The noise dies down after about 15 minutes, but then returns in bursts. I've Read that this is safe and normal, but my 18650 charger doesn't do it so what gives here? Is this safe? Normal? Thanks!
     
  18. Switched

    Switched ECF Guru ECF Veteran

    Feb 18, 2010
    Dartmouth, NS Canada
    Good question for which I do not have an answer as I only use mine on the 3V setting, and it does not over charge my batts. Isaac or someone else more accustomed to using this charger will need to chime in.
     
  19. VaporMadness

    VaporMadness Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 26, 2010
    CA, USA
    Hisses? I have that charger too (2 of them), but mine don't hiss afaik. Is it the charger hissing or the batt?
     
  20. Pyloric Thinker

    Pyloric Thinker Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 13, 2010
    Campbell, CA
    It's the charger. When I plug it in it starts to make a noise. It's hard to describe. A high pitched hissing sound. That's the only way I can describe it. When I put the batteries in the charger the "hissing intensifies for about 15 minutes and then dies down. I guess a simpler question would be, "Do your chargers make any noise?" My wf-139 makes no noise, but the 16340 charger hisses, maybe some would call it a high pitched buzz, it's an annoying noise that some have called normal, but I'm not sure if it's safe. BTW Switched I've been using it exclusively at 3V with this noise.
     

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