It may take a long time to prove any harm caused by known harmful compounds as seems to be the case against Suicide bunny and the 75% of the other juices tested. The 'Which' hunt you mentionned should be on, The other 75% should also be identified. This will force those vendors to remove those from the market place. If they don't regulations are coming that will do so anyway.
tested e-juice vendors
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It may take a long time to prove any harm caused by known harmful compounds as seems to be the case against Suicide bunny and the 75% of the other juices tested. The 'Which' hunt you mentionned should be on, The other 75% should also be identified. This will force those vendors to remove those from the market place. If they don't regulations are coming that will do so anyway.
Absolutely. These measure are completely preventative. It is my opinion that if we take a proactive stance and take the road that leads us to the "safest" possible harm-reduction the better it will look for the vaping community in the long run. If we take a wait and see kind of attitude then it is careless. Of course longevity will show us all kinds of things... good and bad about vaping that we do not / cannot know today, but we are aware of this issue and it is solvable. If the flavor houses do not want to get into the vape scene responsibly then they need to post information that lets this newer industry know their products should not be used for this purpose then it will be up to vendors to test. If they do not want to miss the boat on this up and coming business then they need to get to testing and do so responsibly. Then the vendors that use these flavor houses need to make sure they know what they are ordering and if it has passed standards for vaping as far as we know them. I for one do not want to wait to hear about even a handful of folks that experience irreversible respiratory issues if we can avoid it. Since this is a solvable issue I think it should be before there is proven trouble (sick people), but also agree that at this point we need to be careful how we treat vendors supplying a product that is unregulated. We are all aware we are test subjects to a point because this is a fairly new thing. The complicated flavor profiles is extremely new, so we need to be smart so the whole kit and caboodle is not shut down over an issue that could have been avoided. If a vendor is small and cannot afford to make sure they are providing a product within limits of what we know by testing or what not then they should halt production (maybe ask their regulars for donations to provide the safest product possible) until they can assure that. At the very least, all vendors should right now, this very day, take down any banners that state diacetyl free unless they can PROVE it. This is not an unsolvable problem. And heck, it may not even be a problem, but it is always better to ere on the side of caution. I honestly think vendors should still be able to provide their custards or other flavors that may contain diketones, as long as it is stated so the person buying can decide if the risk is worth it to them. That is all I want. To be informed.
One more note from the wordy one (ME
) for DIY's- they still use the same flavor houses so they are not exempt. For those that say this is blown out of proportion and they want to continue to make or buy custards and like flavors. They still can if they want to take that chance. These flavors will not go away because it would greatly effect the baking/cooking industry.
I agree for the most part with all you said. Just want to add that if the vendor is intentionally misleading me, i'm not gonna be happy regardless of their motive or underlying reason. What i mean is that even in the absence of "evidence that vapers were experiencing issues with lung function and it was determined to be solely from diacetyl (an substitutes)" i don't want to be mislead as to the ingredients of the product i am purchasing. I am not calling for the ban of diketones, but for accurate disclosure, so that i can make an informed purchasing decision.
Totally. What I was saying though is that one case is bad and needs to stop, but in a situation with evidence to show that something is harming others would indeed be justifiable to "hunt" them. See, I think the idea of misleading customers about ingredients is just a grey area (still bad), but when we are talking about ingredients that are actively causing harm, that's different. I mean, when I see "natural flavor," I and others think "natural." But, that term is allowed to mean a synthetic flavoring created to mimic actual natural flavors. Misleading, yes! But not necessarily worthy of the type of hunt I was talking about. But, it's a little less grey, and actually a lie, for a food company to say "sugar free" when it is laden with HFCS -- I think that is tantamount to saying "diacetyl free" and being full of acetyl propionyl. But, in that situation we know for a fact that someone could be quite harmed if they drank a soda that was not really sugar free when they absolutely could not have sugar or HFCS -- I am not sure if anyone is deathly allergic to diketones in eliquid. Maybe? Man, I am taking the circuitous route to back up my post. LOL. Sorry. Just rambling. But I agree with you.
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Do I need permission from the vendor I emailed to post their reply here? I don't want to go against any rules here or general privacy issues. Also I am planning to do a set of emails to the following vendors, Vapor Girl, VaporFi, Blends by Bryce and Alice in Vapeland. The first three I have some juice from in my stash and I have been wanting to try Alice in Vapeland so I thought this would be a good place to start. Also I would like to take a moment to let any suppliers that read ECF know that if they are either testing or completed and would like this to be know for them to feel free and add themselves.
Here is a sample of my email:
Hi, I have fallen in love with many of your wonderful juices. My present favorite is __________. The reason for my email today is that I am hoping you will be able to set my mind at ease a bit. With the latest study done by Dr. Farsalinos I am being a bit more careful in making sure my favorite juices are in fact Diacetyl and other Diketone free. I understand that you make this claim on your site but since his study has shown that over 70% of the tested juices had diacetyl even though supplier said there was none my concerns have gone up a bit. I am not trying to suggest you are among this group or that they are purposely trying to deceive the customers. Do you guys privately test your juices for these chemicals or get your flavor concentrates from a source that publishes their results? I am trying to be as informed about what I choose to put in my system as I can be. And again, let me say thank you for putting your time and talents into providing wonderful juices
> for the vaping community. I look forward to your response.
Feel free to tell me if this email is too much, or just a waste of time.
Here is a sample of my email:
Hi, I have fallen in love with many of your wonderful juices. My present favorite is __________. The reason for my email today is that I am hoping you will be able to set my mind at ease a bit. With the latest study done by Dr. Farsalinos I am being a bit more careful in making sure my favorite juices are in fact Diacetyl and other Diketone free. I understand that you make this claim on your site but since his study has shown that over 70% of the tested juices had diacetyl even though supplier said there was none my concerns have gone up a bit. I am not trying to suggest you are among this group or that they are purposely trying to deceive the customers. Do you guys privately test your juices for these chemicals or get your flavor concentrates from a source that publishes their results? I am trying to be as informed about what I choose to put in my system as I can be. And again, let me say thank you for putting your time and talents into providing wonderful juices
> for the vaping community. I look forward to your response.
Feel free to tell me if this email is too much, or just a waste of time.
IMO, the vendors who are using DA and AP in their mixes are not concerned. Even Dr. F's study showed that if you vaped less than 1.5mls/day of the questionable liquids you would still be under the NIOSH "safe" limits. Why would the vendors care? For a number of vapers their liquid is "very" safe. If you vape 20mls/day your barely hitting the DA levels of ONE cigarette!!
Since most vapers were/are smokers they are either okay with the DA levels, or don't care to find out. Vaping is safer and they want CREAMY BUTTER CHEESECAKE!! The vendors are happy to oblige.
Should the vendors give you a choice? Absolutely. But the studies show even with the crap that is in some liquids, vaping is magnitudes safer than smoking. As long as rich and creamy sells, there's gonna be DA and AP in those juices. Unfortunately, thats what the market wants.
Since most vapers were/are smokers they are either okay with the DA levels, or don't care to find out. Vaping is safer and they want CREAMY BUTTER CHEESECAKE!! The vendors are happy to oblige.
Should the vendors give you a choice? Absolutely. But the studies show even with the crap that is in some liquids, vaping is magnitudes safer than smoking. As long as rich and creamy sells, there's gonna be DA and AP in those juices. Unfortunately, thats what the market wants.
12. Communications considered private
Posting the content of PMs or personal emails on the forum is not allowed. All PMs and emails are deemed to be confidential and cannot be made public except with the prior written consent of the author.
You can paraphrase, but not post emails.
Sorry but I am quite sure you numbers are way off. The levels found in Dr. F where much greater that what you stated. I will check it out again and come back.
'' Dr. Farsalinos’ study : '' testing 159 different e-liquids found that 74% contained diacetyl and/or acetyl propionyl. Some of the liquids tested had levels of diacetyl and/or acetyl propionyl 450 times the safety level (assuming the individual is vaping 3 mL per day). ''
I vape +10ml/day which means that with Suicide bunny or some of the other 74% I would vape in more than 1500 time the daily safety levels....
I don't think comparison to cigarettes have any meaning here. We are talking about avoidable risks. Exactly what govt regulations will target and make compulsary if WE, the vapers do not react properly.
How can we vape in public and say that second hand vapor is not dangerous without being dismissed as imbecile after that !
p.s: I don't think many informed vapers will ask for CREAMY BUTTER CHEESCAKE once they understand that it will rot on the lungs.
I vape +10ml/day which means that with Suicide bunny or some of the other 74% I would vape in more than 1500 time the daily safety levels....
I don't think comparison to cigarettes have any meaning here. We are talking about avoidable risks. Exactly what govt regulations will target and make compulsary if WE, the vapers do not react properly.
How can we vape in public and say that second hand vapor is not dangerous without being dismissed as imbecile after that !
p.s: I don't think many informed vapers will ask for CREAMY BUTTER CHEESCAKE once they understand that it will rot on the lungs.
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Thank you. If you read up in this thread you will see my hesitation on the proper way to go about pulling the weeds, so to speak. I will be extremely careful of how I reflect answered emails and encourage any others here that post results of their findings to do the same.
I am not even going to fully address your numbers except to say that this is not how I am seeing them, because the point of this is not to argue the numbers, stop production of rich and creamy, or tell anybody what they should chose to do with their body. I don't care if you want to sip an arsenic laced drink while vaping on the creamiest, most custardy juice made in somebodies garage! Learning to read is very important in life and when that skill is in place you can follow threads like this. This is about a certain responsibility in advertising. Telling consumers that your products either contains or doesn't contain a controversial ingredient when this cannot be backed up is what this is about. I agree that these flavors are very sought after right now and very yummy. I am not even claiming that I will not still occasionally vape on a nice custard (I have not thrown any of my custards or like flavors away). I just DO NOT want to be misled by these juice suppliers that place banners and statements on their sites claiming to be diacetyl, AP or anything free if they cannot back this up. I do not want to know their formulas for their multi flavors, but I do want to know if it contains flavors that have diketones. You state that vaping is magnitudes safer than smoking and yes, the action of vaping nic is, but once you add these multi-level juices that are so wonderful that ballgame is changed a bit. The ugly truth is that the industry is still too young to say that without fault. In another decade or so we will be on better ground to make statements like that. If you want to hide under your idc blanket this is your choice. My choice is to try to learn as much as I can about what I choose to put in my body but I cannot do this is I am being sold mistruths.
IMO the biggest problem with this is IT WILL be used by anti Vaping factions and it is already being used to help pass local Indoor use Bans . Local City Council Members see a report that there is a real problem with some e-liquids being Marketed[as containing a Carcinogenic Compound] and use that to introduce and pass a Ban
IMO Unless the Industry makes flavor makers Prove their flavoring are free of these compounds 1 or 2 things will happen. The FDA will Ban all flavors except tobacco and menthol and more States will be successful at passing Indoor Use Bans. This is really Really Bad PR for Vapers
Anti vaping factions will use any negative reports/testings they can find no matter if they are true or who they are done by. We cannot stop that. Talking about it here will not be the reason bans are placed. The reports are not done by us, we are just talking about them and trying to figure out a way to to use this information to better our vaping experience. Anybody that sees this thread or any like thread that questions the safety of mods, juices or anything regarding e-cigs as anything other then trying to be responsible in making this the best alternative to cigarettes would report anything they wanted to anyway. Geez, sorry that was a rather jumbled thought. No matter what the product there is always going to be a side for it and a side against it and some that just don't care. If we let them scare us into not even discussing how to make this industry the best it can be then they have already won. When anything is new (multi-level flavored juices are considered fairly new) it is best to try to explore all angles. The only thing I can think to compare it to is when a large company does a voluntary recall of their product to reevaluate it so they know they are giving their customers the best product. It makes people feel better. If same company was instead forced into a recall then people would call them liars and it would be far worse. I don't know how else to put it. If we want to remain self regulated then we better show that we are responsible in doing so. We need to take the blinders off.
And 60% of the 74% were below the safe limits. In other words 70% of ALL the liquids tested were below the safe limits. And the liquids tested were all sweet flavors. Add in non-desert flavors and I'd guess 90% or better of flavored liquids pose no health risk at 3ml/day. Even when DA is detected.
I used figures from Dr. F's study presented by Riccardo Polosa at the Global Forum on Nicotine 2014. Its available in the Tobacco Harm Reduction thread.
I agree that DA and AP are avoidable risks. But with a "safe level" established, it can be considered an acceptable risk below these levels. It would be nice if Dr. F released the names of the liquids and vendors tested. I am not aware if that has been released, I haven't seen it.
These studies keep showing how safe vaping is, and that a completely unregulated industry can offer a much safer alternative to smoking. The high DA/AP liquids are not industry wide (at least if you consider Dr. F's study as a fair cross section). There is a good chance that if you are not vaping CREAMY BUTTER CHEESECAKE in public, your second hand vapor is not dangerous.
Dr. F did go through the numbers found in Suicide Bunny on the podcast but I can't remember the exact details. Looks like the only thing we are getting out of the SB Facebook Tangaroav is more venom.
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I concur. If you look there are flavors that have been tested, and the vendors make that knowledge available. Other than that you have to trust the vendor. If they are deceptive in their advertising, I'd go out on a limb and say they will be deceptive in an email.
I don't vape CREAMY BUTTER CHEESECAKE because I would assume it contains something not so nice. If a vendor told me they were DA/AP free, I would still pass. I agree that the burden of proof is on the vendor. If you're concerned about the inclusion of certain chemicals in your liquid, the vendors should be upfront with you. I don't think deception is industry wide. I don't think "unsafe" levels of DA/AP are industry wide.
Good luck
I do not think it is industry wide or even close on both subject either. I do know that if I am munching on a nice bunch of cashews by the handfuls (ohhh yummm) and after a bit I get a few raunchy tasting nuts, I am looking at the rest of the nuts pretty warily. Heck I might even put the cashews up because for most people it only takes a few bad nuts to spoil it for the rest of the yummies.
Very good points and I really hadn't considered this side of it until I read your post. Light bulb moment. Almost every industry has allowable levels of things we either consider unsafe in large quantities or unsavory (like bug parts) in general that these producer cannot completely keep out of their products. They can still make claims of absence as long as they are within limits. I think it is time for me to get off this soapbox. It is just going around in circles anyway.
With Mothers Milk, 1/3 of one ml would take you the safe limit of A P and with Sucker Punch 2/3 of one ml. The numbers were ridiculously high, and Dr. F did make a point that the majority of the juices testing positive were not as high as Suicide Bunny, but a few were even higher.
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