The Abomination of Desolation?
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Oh ok, but I dont' think it's humanly possible to know the whole truth. I just have faith that it's in God's hands, and it's up to Him to sort it all out.
Zion-ism is 'my' label SG (you gave it to me)... your's is replacement theology, your interpretation of scripture differs from mine... we should agree to disagree and leave it at that....
In all of this we should seek truth from what God says through His word. I'd very much be interested in someone (anyone) taking scripture from Galatians, Ephesians & Hebrews and still making a case for a rebuilt Jewish system.
Ok, here's the deal. I don't belong to one camp or another, I just don't know, and I"m humble enough to admit it and trust that God has it all worked out. But even if I did know, I still wouldn't belong to one camp or another because it's not that important. It's not a salvation issue here, it's between God and Israel, not really our business to fight about, get offended about, or even claim to know the absolute truth about because none of us here is God.
When it comes to things like this, I refer to this verse here: "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will make your paths straight. Proverbs 3:5-6"
This is what matters, having faith in God, and having faith that HE will take care of His dealings. It's interesting to talk about, and read about, but when it comes right down to it, it's not a salvation issue. If people fight about this, that is a sin. Believing the wrong thing about a non-salvation issue is not a sin.
Think about it.
When it comes to things like this, I refer to this verse here: "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will make your paths straight. Proverbs 3:5-6"
This is what matters, having faith in God, and having faith that HE will take care of His dealings. It's interesting to talk about, and read about, but when it comes right down to it, it's not a salvation issue. If people fight about this, that is a sin. Believing the wrong thing about a non-salvation issue is not a sin.
Think about it.
I've found the 'truth' from God's physical word.. it is adequate for me. Israel is a Nation today against miraculous odds of that being so.... that alone is enough physical AND scriptural evidence for me. You can't 'un erase' this Miracle from God and until you can I think 'you' should re think your theology... it just isn't Christian SG. There are hundreds of thousands of Jewish People's lives hanging in this delicate balance... Many living in Israel now are Messianic Jews.. they believe in and have received Christ as their Savior. Replacement Theology will cause many Christians world wide to turn their backs on the Jewish Nation (because why shouldn't they?.. it's no longer relevant)... allowing for other Nations (Palestinians & others) to tear them apart and drag them asunder... do you really 'want' that for the Nation of Israel SG?
I would 'quake' to be in the boots of those 'who curse Israel'... God is not slack concerning His promises....
Care to deal with what the apostle Paul (inspired by the Holy Spirit) said concerning it? The book of Ephesians will be fine with me.
Very good point Lisa.. however, what we 'believe' can be 'dangerous' to a Country and a People. The Christians who believe in Zion-ism (Israel as a physical Nation and a People) harm no one... Replacement theology 'harms' the Nation & People of Israel. If you like & watch John Hagee, Hal Lindsey, Grant Jeffrey and Jack Van Impe, they all 'warn' about this 'dangerous' replacement theology. I just don't want to see the Nation of Israel or the Jewish People harmed in these last days.. this is 'why' I defend Israel.
And yet they stay in the OT with very little regard to what the NT says concerning the matter.
But there is the problem. Trusting in men, and thinking that something that you can do to save a nation? This is in God's hands, have faith in Him and don't lean on your own understanding because there is no way you can know for sure, and even if you did know for sure, there is nothing you can do. This is between God and Israel, and He is capable of handling it. There is nothing that He can't and won't handle.
Okay.....but if you see some guys raping a woman and do nothing....what does that say about you? That's the way I am about Israel. Why can't all of the huge Arab nations give the Palestinians some land. They don't want them. Israel has done everything they can do to appease them and they want none of it. Wars are fought all the time. Land is lost to another nation all the time.....so why is this any different than that? Even though God is calling them back to the land and they rejected Jesus doesn't mean God has turned His back on his chosen.....and yes, they are chosen and the wife of God, which we already discussed. I wouldn't want to be the one to tell God to give the boot to His wife. It doesn't matter what man says, it matters what God says.
It doesn't matter what man says, it matters what God says.
Which is precisely why I have given book, chapter & verse from the OT in the post and am open to NT discussion concerning the matter in particularly the book of Ephesians where Paul addresses the issue.
Compelling evidence of God's covenant with Israel:
Jeremiah 31
31 The days are coming, declares the LORD,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to[d] them,[e]
declares the LORD.
33 This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time, declares the LORD.
I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, Know the LORD,
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,
declares the LORD.
For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.
35 This is what the LORD says,
he who appoints the sun
to shine by day,
who decrees the moon and stars
to shine by night,
who stirs up the sea
so that its waves roar
the LORD Almighty is his name:
36 Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,
declares the LORD,
will Israel ever cease
being a nation before me.
37 This is what the LORD says:
Only if the heavens above can be measured
and the foundations of the earth below be searched out
will I reject all the descendants of Israel
because of all they have done,
declares the LORD.
38 The days are coming, declares the LORD, when this city will be rebuilt for me from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The measuring line will stretch from there straight to the hill of Gareb and then turn to Goah. 40 The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown, and all the terraces out to the Kidron Valley on the east as far as the corner of the Horse Gate, will be holy to the LORD. The city will never again be uprooted or demolished.
Please keep in mind the following:
Numbers 23:19 (New International Version)
19 God is not human, that he should lie,
not a human being, that he should change his mind.
Does he speak and then not act?
Does he promise and not fulfill?
Jeremiah 31
31 The days are coming, declares the LORD,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to[d] them,[e]
declares the LORD.
33 This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time, declares the LORD.
I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, Know the LORD,
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,
declares the LORD.
For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.
35 This is what the LORD says,
he who appoints the sun
to shine by day,
who decrees the moon and stars
to shine by night,
who stirs up the sea
so that its waves roar
the LORD Almighty is his name:
36 Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,
declares the LORD,
will Israel ever cease
being a nation before me.
37 This is what the LORD says:
Only if the heavens above can be measured
and the foundations of the earth below be searched out
will I reject all the descendants of Israel
because of all they have done,
declares the LORD.
38 The days are coming, declares the LORD, when this city will be rebuilt for me from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The measuring line will stretch from there straight to the hill of Gareb and then turn to Goah. 40 The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown, and all the terraces out to the Kidron Valley on the east as far as the corner of the Horse Gate, will be holy to the LORD. The city will never again be uprooted or demolished.
Please keep in mind the following:
Numbers 23:19 (New International Version)
19 God is not human, that he should lie,
not a human being, that he should change his mind.
Does he speak and then not act?
Does he promise and not fulfill?
Romans 9
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
You've been missed Southern Gent . Although I certainly don't see eye to eye with you on many of your stances, I understand your passion and trust the Lord to complete his work in us all.
Thanks for showing up
. Although I certainly don't see eye to eye with you on many of your stances, I understand your passion and trust the Lord to complete his work in us all.Thanks for showing up
Now that's an interesting verse. It's a little difficult to understand, but definitely worth checking out further.
Question, so does that verse say that all jews will go to heaven? Even the terrible ones in today's society that commit terrible crimes?
Since the jews have intermarried with everyone else, and the bloodline is all broken up, and they live all over the earth, then who exactly is a jew or who is israel now because the average jew is just like everyone else in the world now, except for certain sects like a hassidic jews, which take their bloodline and their religion very seriously.
Read Romans Chapter's 9-11.
An excerpt....Rom 11:1-2
1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
An excerpt....Rom 11:1-2
1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
Israel’s Rejection not Complete nor Final
11:1 So I ask, God has not rejected his people, has he? Absolutely not! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 11:2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew! Do you not know what the scripture says about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 11:3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars; I alone am left and they are seeking my life!” 1 11:4 But what was the divine response 2 to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand people 3 who have not bent the knee to Baal.” 4
11:5 So in the same way at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 11:6 And if it is by grace, it is no longer by works, otherwise grace would no longer be grace. 11:7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was diligently seeking, but the elect obtained it. The 5 rest were hardened, 11:8 as it is written,
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear,
to this very day.” 6
11:9 And David says,
“Let their table become a snare and trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
11:10 let their eyes be darkened so that they may not see,
and make their backs bend continually.” 7
11:11 I ask then, they did not stumble into an irrevocable fall, 8 did they? Absolutely not! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make Israel 9 jealous. 11:12 Now if their transgression means riches for the world and their defeat means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full restoration 10 bring?
11:13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Seeing that I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 11:14 if somehow I could provoke my people to jealousy and save some of them. 11:15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 11:16 If the first portion 11 of the dough offered is holy, then the whole batch is holy, and if the root is holy, so too are the branches. 12
11:17 Now if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among them and participated in 13 the richness of the olive root, 11:18 do not boast over the branches. But if you boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. 11:19 Then you will say, “The branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 11:20 Granted! 14 They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but fear! 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, perhaps he will not spare you. 11:22 Notice therefore the kindness and harshness of God – harshness toward those who have fallen, but 15 God’s kindness toward you, provided you continue in his kindness; 16 otherwise you also will be cut off. 11:23 And even they – if they do not continue in their unbelief – will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 11:24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these natural branches be grafted back into their own olive tree?
11:25 For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, 17 so that you may not be conceited: A partial hardening has happened to Israel 18 until the full number 19 of the Gentiles has come in. 11:26 And so 20 all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion;
he will remove ungodliness from Jacob.
11:27 And this is my covenant with them, 21
when I take away their sins.” 22
11:28 In regard to the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but in regard to election they are dearly loved for the sake of the fathers. 11:29 For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable. 11:30 Just as you were formerly disobedient to God, but have now received mercy due to their disobedience, 11:31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that, by the mercy shown to you, they too may now 23 receive mercy. 11:32 For God has consigned all people to disobedience so that he may show mercy to them all. 24
11:33 Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how fathomless his ways!
11:34 For who has known the mind of the Lord,
or who has been his counselor? 25
11:35 Or who has first given to God, 26
that God 27 needs to repay him? 28
11:36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever! Amen.
11:1 So I ask, God has not rejected his people, has he? Absolutely not! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 11:2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew! Do you not know what the scripture says about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 11:3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars; I alone am left and they are seeking my life!” 1 11:4 But what was the divine response 2 to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand people 3 who have not bent the knee to Baal.” 4
11:5 So in the same way at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 11:6 And if it is by grace, it is no longer by works, otherwise grace would no longer be grace. 11:7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was diligently seeking, but the elect obtained it. The 5 rest were hardened, 11:8 as it is written,
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear,
to this very day.” 6
11:9 And David says,
“Let their table become a snare and trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
11:10 let their eyes be darkened so that they may not see,
and make their backs bend continually.” 7
11:11 I ask then, they did not stumble into an irrevocable fall, 8 did they? Absolutely not! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make Israel 9 jealous. 11:12 Now if their transgression means riches for the world and their defeat means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full restoration 10 bring?
11:13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Seeing that I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 11:14 if somehow I could provoke my people to jealousy and save some of them. 11:15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 11:16 If the first portion 11 of the dough offered is holy, then the whole batch is holy, and if the root is holy, so too are the branches. 12
11:17 Now if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among them and participated in 13 the richness of the olive root, 11:18 do not boast over the branches. But if you boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. 11:19 Then you will say, “The branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 11:20 Granted! 14 They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but fear! 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, perhaps he will not spare you. 11:22 Notice therefore the kindness and harshness of God – harshness toward those who have fallen, but 15 God’s kindness toward you, provided you continue in his kindness; 16 otherwise you also will be cut off. 11:23 And even they – if they do not continue in their unbelief – will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 11:24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these natural branches be grafted back into their own olive tree?
11:25 For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, 17 so that you may not be conceited: A partial hardening has happened to Israel 18 until the full number 19 of the Gentiles has come in. 11:26 And so 20 all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion;
he will remove ungodliness from Jacob.
11:27 And this is my covenant with them, 21
when I take away their sins.” 22
11:28 In regard to the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but in regard to election they are dearly loved for the sake of the fathers. 11:29 For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable. 11:30 Just as you were formerly disobedient to God, but have now received mercy due to their disobedience, 11:31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that, by the mercy shown to you, they too may now 23 receive mercy. 11:32 For God has consigned all people to disobedience so that he may show mercy to them all. 24
11:33 Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how fathomless his ways!
11:34 For who has known the mind of the Lord,
or who has been his counselor? 25
11:35 Or who has first given to God, 26
that God 27 needs to repay him? 28
11:36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever! Amen.
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