When would you suggest a newbie, or anyone, be made aware of any possible problems? Just asking.
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When would you suggest a newbie, or anyone, be made aware of any possible problems? Just asking.
Thanks for your insight Litcube.
As usual there are 2-3 people who have no interest in the topic other than to dispute anything other than ecig cheerleading.
It's too bad because it has hurt the forum's credibility.
I've taken the ego-c atomizers apart and wiped my finger across the bottom of the wick and the particles(look like shards) come off where they were touching the coil. So yes, it is a concern to many of us.
As usual there are 2-3 people who have no interest in the topic other than to dispute anything other than ecig cheerleading.
It's too bad because it has hurt the forum's credibility.
I've taken the ego-c atomizers apart and wiped my finger across the bottom of the wick and the particles(look like shards) come off where they were touching the coil. So yes, it is a concern to many of us.
Mmm... I would put this in the same category as stripping and having to rewax asbestos containing floor tile.
Huh? You say what has this got to do with that? I have to say that I am no expert in this field, but in a way it looks similar to me.
I spent many many years as a school custodian, then head custodian, then custodial supervisor. Many of the schools had the older asbestos containing floor tile. It is a very expensive process to have the tiles replaced and has to be done by professional crews. But the school system was having them replaced as they could afford to.
Now here is the indirect correlation. Asbestos while in the tile is not dangerous. What/when makes the asbestos dangerous is when it becomes airborne. Then it is dangerous and a known carcinogen. The floors still had to be taken care of and kept waxed. Waxing helped seal the asbestos in, plus of course gives you that nice shine. Wax yellows with age so stripping and rewaxing is a given. The key to safety was while stripping with a buff machine it was important to keep the floor tile WET. If wet, the asbestos cannot become airborne to become a danger. You keep it wet even while rinsing and cleaning the stripping solution off. Then with the machines off the floor area being done you let it dry. Then you immediately apply new coats of wax using a mop, keeping the heavy machinery away. Keeping the tile WET is the key.
I hope I have not lost anyone with my analogy. But by my thinking are you not keeping the wicks wet? Does not that help with keeping the shards from becoming airborne? Would the majority of the shards remain suspended in the liquid and gotten rid of when you rinse your carto out?
If a study is ever done they would need to do it properly as someone pointed out. Do NOT test the wicks. But the vapor itself. Of course if you break a DRY wick apart it becomes friable and airborne. Test the VAPOR only with the cartos with liquid in it with the wicks wet.
Just something for peeps to think on and my two cents.
Huh? You say what has this got to do with that? I have to say that I am no expert in this field, but in a way it looks similar to me.
I spent many many years as a school custodian, then head custodian, then custodial supervisor. Many of the schools had the older asbestos containing floor tile. It is a very expensive process to have the tiles replaced and has to be done by professional crews. But the school system was having them replaced as they could afford to.
Now here is the indirect correlation. Asbestos while in the tile is not dangerous. What/when makes the asbestos dangerous is when it becomes airborne. Then it is dangerous and a known carcinogen. The floors still had to be taken care of and kept waxed. Waxing helped seal the asbestos in, plus of course gives you that nice shine. Wax yellows with age so stripping and rewaxing is a given. The key to safety was while stripping with a buff machine it was important to keep the floor tile WET. If wet, the asbestos cannot become airborne to become a danger. You keep it wet even while rinsing and cleaning the stripping solution off. Then with the machines off the floor area being done you let it dry. Then you immediately apply new coats of wax using a mop, keeping the heavy machinery away. Keeping the tile WET is the key.
I hope I have not lost anyone with my analogy. But by my thinking are you not keeping the wicks wet? Does not that help with keeping the shards from becoming airborne? Would the majority of the shards remain suspended in the liquid and gotten rid of when you rinse your carto out?
If a study is ever done they would need to do it properly as someone pointed out. Do NOT test the wicks. But the vapor itself. Of course if you break a DRY wick apart it becomes friable and airborne. Test the VAPOR only with the cartos with liquid in it with the wicks wet.
Just something for peeps to think on and my two cents.
I've read the other threads discussing this subject and I certainly didn't see anything alarmist or unbalanced in litcube's comments - and certainly nothing that shouldn't be discussed. A pervasive problem in here is thinking that because ecigs are rather obviously safer than cigarettes we should refuse to have any concerns at all. That's silly - the evolution of our product has always needed to address safety concerns of all sorts, and should. The fact that there's an army out there promoting infuriating disinformation doesn't mean that we should identify every legitimate concern as a scare tactic. That antagonist would love that as it would discredit us.
This is (at this point) a highly consumer-regulated business. The better informed we are and the more conscientious the better.
No proof of anything, or disproof, ever arose except in the wake of speculation.
This is (at this point) a highly consumer-regulated business. The better informed we are and the more conscientious the better.
No proof of anything, or disproof, ever arose except in the wake of speculation.
OK. Here's my 
There really aren't many things about an e-cig that shouldn't be of concern, and that concern increases as one advances into Mods... safe Batteries, safe Chargers, safe E-Liquids, safe Wicks, safe E-Liquid Tanks, safe Coil materials, safe... everything. I am absolutely not an alarmist, and I certainly don't say this to scare you (or anyone else), but the Safety Factor is of great concern to me. ECF has been a great resource of information, and I have researched every area of concern to me, and start new research every time I hear of something new to me. Many of those concerns have been debunked, and others have been minimized by finding the Safest Alternatives I could find. Silica Shards are nothing new to me.
I see nothing wrong with Litcube wanting to investigate, and either confirm or dispel this Silica Wick concern to his satisfaction. I see nothing wrong with his stated motives. I actually applaud him, and anyone else who wants to do a Scientific Study. But there are right ways and wrong ways to do it. A good Scientist sets a thesis (like Silica Wicks can be Harmful), and then sets out to disprove it, by any and all means possible. If he/she can't disprove it, then it would be prudent to initiate further study into how any harm could be minimized. Another excellent Scientific Practice is that the same study is repeated by many Scientists, and possibly (hopefully) Scientists from various Disciplines, to take into account the various methods (and budgets) that may be available to some and not others. So while one particular Scientist may reach a conclusion, it doesn't become Gospel until that same conclusion has been reached throughout the Scientific Community. All done by people who fully understand what they're working with, in this case, e-cigs; the actual e-cig products and various designs, the actual use of e-cigs, and the practices of e-cigs users, under actual proper use conditions. While we wait...
To me, the Safety Factor where Silica Wicks are concerned is actually how bad the Silica Shards might get when the Wick gets too Dry. A Wet Silica Wick will most likely not produce Shards, but the Dry Burn probably will. The majority of E-Liquid Storage Systems do not allow one to see how much E-Liquid remains available to the Atomizer, which IMO greatly increases the likelihood of a Dry Silica Wick, and therefore, a Dry Burn that is inhaled. This is why I insist on having a Clear Tank that I can easily see through. I currently use the Vivi Nova.
Before anyone decides to attack me, let me say that I fully understand that as the E-Liquid supply runs out, the e-cig user is going to notice the Vapor and/or Flavor is fading. And understand this. When the Wick is soaked, the Coil cannot get hot enough to glow red, but as the Wick starts to get Dryer, either from the Supply running out, or from the Wick not being able to keep up with the user, as it continues, the Coil is going to start getting hotter and hotter in the middle, and as the E-Liquid Supply continues to be diminished, it will start glowing red in larger and larger proportions, potentially scorching the Silica Wick. Will the user notice the diminished performance before this happens? Can any of you say, absolutely, every time, 100% of the time? I really don't think you can.
So Litcube, do your study, but do it well, and don't disappoint us. It has been pointed out that there are different Wicking Configurations between the available designs that incorporate Silica Wicks, and while it's important to study the Wet Wick, I think it's just as important to study the entire range of wicking situations, from Fully Wet, to Fully Dry, with small steps in between, and to learn at what point any Shards begin to be delivered into the Vapor Stream, if at all. And... if you're going to do it at all, then do it with as many Atomizer designs as possible, including Cartomizers of various designs, and the various Tank designs that use Silica Wicks, like the Vivi Nova, and others. Big Wicks (2-3mm diameters), Medium Wicks (1-2mm diameters), Skinny Wicks (less than or equal to 1mm diameters), Multiple Stand Wicks, in any and all Silica Wick compositions (there can't be only one type of Silica Wick on the market). Then, it would have to be considered that any Shards found coming from Cartomizers will have to be further studied to see if they are emitted from the Wick, or maybe the Fiberglass Tube (in some designs) that covers and feeds the Coil, or the Filler Materials.
I have no doubt that you can create a situation where Shards can be released. It's already been done. But how does that relate to actual e-cig use?, in current Atomizer designs?, under normal usage situations? If it relates, then yet another area of study is required. It's also already been asked (considering the possibility that any Shards are released as related to e-cig use) if this would actually be enough to cause a problem, and if so, then over what kind of time frame. Yet another study. Though I'd be satisfied for the time being with an unbiased professional opinion, from someone who's an actual e-cig user, while we wait and wait for these studies.
So, if this first kind of project is too big for you (let alone the continued follow-up studies), then maybe you should accept the previously established results and pass the torch to someone else. But don't let me stop you. Do what you can to satisfy your own curiosities.
No matter what, we're better off with e-cigs than their traditional brethren. But that's me.
There really aren't many things about an e-cig that shouldn't be of concern, and that concern increases as one advances into Mods... safe Batteries, safe Chargers, safe E-Liquids, safe Wicks, safe E-Liquid Tanks, safe Coil materials, safe... everything. I am absolutely not an alarmist, and I certainly don't say this to scare you (or anyone else), but the Safety Factor is of great concern to me. ECF has been a great resource of information, and I have researched every area of concern to me, and start new research every time I hear of something new to me. Many of those concerns have been debunked, and others have been minimized by finding the Safest Alternatives I could find. Silica Shards are nothing new to me.
I see nothing wrong with Litcube wanting to investigate, and either confirm or dispel this Silica Wick concern to his satisfaction. I see nothing wrong with his stated motives. I actually applaud him, and anyone else who wants to do a Scientific Study. But there are right ways and wrong ways to do it. A good Scientist sets a thesis (like Silica Wicks can be Harmful), and then sets out to disprove it, by any and all means possible. If he/she can't disprove it, then it would be prudent to initiate further study into how any harm could be minimized. Another excellent Scientific Practice is that the same study is repeated by many Scientists, and possibly (hopefully) Scientists from various Disciplines, to take into account the various methods (and budgets) that may be available to some and not others. So while one particular Scientist may reach a conclusion, it doesn't become Gospel until that same conclusion has been reached throughout the Scientific Community. All done by people who fully understand what they're working with, in this case, e-cigs; the actual e-cig products and various designs, the actual use of e-cigs, and the practices of e-cigs users, under actual proper use conditions. While we wait...
To me, the Safety Factor where Silica Wicks are concerned is actually how bad the Silica Shards might get when the Wick gets too Dry. A Wet Silica Wick will most likely not produce Shards, but the Dry Burn probably will. The majority of E-Liquid Storage Systems do not allow one to see how much E-Liquid remains available to the Atomizer, which IMO greatly increases the likelihood of a Dry Silica Wick, and therefore, a Dry Burn that is inhaled. This is why I insist on having a Clear Tank that I can easily see through. I currently use the Vivi Nova.
Before anyone decides to attack me, let me say that I fully understand that as the E-Liquid supply runs out, the e-cig user is going to notice the Vapor and/or Flavor is fading. And understand this. When the Wick is soaked, the Coil cannot get hot enough to glow red, but as the Wick starts to get Dryer, either from the Supply running out, or from the Wick not being able to keep up with the user, as it continues, the Coil is going to start getting hotter and hotter in the middle, and as the E-Liquid Supply continues to be diminished, it will start glowing red in larger and larger proportions, potentially scorching the Silica Wick. Will the user notice the diminished performance before this happens? Can any of you say, absolutely, every time, 100% of the time? I really don't think you can.
So Litcube, do your study, but do it well, and don't disappoint us. It has been pointed out that there are different Wicking Configurations between the available designs that incorporate Silica Wicks, and while it's important to study the Wet Wick, I think it's just as important to study the entire range of wicking situations, from Fully Wet, to Fully Dry, with small steps in between, and to learn at what point any Shards begin to be delivered into the Vapor Stream, if at all. And... if you're going to do it at all, then do it with as many Atomizer designs as possible, including Cartomizers of various designs, and the various Tank designs that use Silica Wicks, like the Vivi Nova, and others. Big Wicks (2-3mm diameters), Medium Wicks (1-2mm diameters), Skinny Wicks (less than or equal to 1mm diameters), Multiple Stand Wicks, in any and all Silica Wick compositions (there can't be only one type of Silica Wick on the market). Then, it would have to be considered that any Shards found coming from Cartomizers will have to be further studied to see if they are emitted from the Wick, or maybe the Fiberglass Tube (in some designs) that covers and feeds the Coil, or the Filler Materials.
I have no doubt that you can create a situation where Shards can be released. It's already been done. But how does that relate to actual e-cig use?, in current Atomizer designs?, under normal usage situations? If it relates, then yet another area of study is required. It's also already been asked (considering the possibility that any Shards are released as related to e-cig use) if this would actually be enough to cause a problem, and if so, then over what kind of time frame. Yet another study. Though I'd be satisfied for the time being with an unbiased professional opinion, from someone who's an actual e-cig user, while we wait and wait for these studies.
So, if this first kind of project is too big for you (let alone the continued follow-up studies), then maybe you should accept the previously established results and pass the torch to someone else. But don't let me stop you. Do what you can to satisfy your own curiosities.
No matter what, we're better off with e-cigs than their traditional brethren. But that's me.
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100%VG a well thought out post. Bravo.
I also only use carts that I can see what is in it. I have recently come to use the Kanger T3 model as it has very short wicks and is bottom fed. That way the wicks stay wet by gravity itself. Well, that is not the only reason I switched. LOL!
But once again a well thought out post.
I also only use carts that I can see what is in it. I have recently come to use the Kanger T3 model as it has very short wicks and is bottom fed. That way the wicks stay wet by gravity itself. Well, that is not the only reason I switched. LOL!
But once again a well thought out post.
@100%VG,
While your proposal is very sensible and it will make sense to do the testing in the way you propose, this goes well beyond what the OP said he may do.
He only proposed to test the wick to see which type of silica is used on it, that on itself will be a huge step forward. Then if it turns out the wicks are made of the type of silica that is known to cause silicosis a second study as you propoaed should be done
While your proposal is very sensible and it will make sense to do the testing in the way you propose, this goes well beyond what the OP said he may do.
He only proposed to test the wick to see which type of silica is used on it, that on itself will be a huge step forward. Then if it turns out the wicks are made of the type of silica that is known to cause silicosis a second study as you propoaed should be done
What is the difference in price and preformance of silica wick to cotton or bamboo? If we put enough presure on manufactures I'm sure they would put the safest wicks in everything.
I am glad this was in the newbie forum, just like exploding batteries has been. A lot of people did not realize the importance of proper mah chargers for each different device, over charging, problems letting some batts totaly die befor recharge, and being able to buy battery charging protection bags incase the do blow on a charger. This was info that newbies neede to know. There was a lot of speculation as to what was causing this, but everyone deserved to know about the risk.
This may even be an isue to second hand vape. The sooner we know the better.
I am glad this was in the newbie forum, just like exploding batteries has been. A lot of people did not realize the importance of proper mah chargers for each different device, over charging, problems letting some batts totaly die befor recharge, and being able to buy battery charging protection bags incase the do blow on a charger. This was info that newbies neede to know. There was a lot of speculation as to what was causing this, but everyone deserved to know about the risk.
This may even be an isue to second hand vape. The sooner we know the better.
Thank you Litcube, for actually taking in a "silica" wick for analysis. I have been assuming that what we use is properly termed "synthetic glass fiber", which is pure glass, as opposed to "fiberglass" which is composed of glass filaments in a plastic matrix. From what I understand, the glass used in glass fiber (and in the majority of glass in common usage) is amorphous (not crystalline like naturally occurring quartz which can cause silicosis when less than 10 micrometers in size) and not bundled (like asbestos which can cause mesothelioma).
A controversial study in the 1970ies had seemed to indicate that glass fiber was harmful to rats, but human epidemiological studies have shown no link to disease. Thus OSHA concludes that there is insufficient evidence that it causes respiratory disease in humans, and states that it is not classifiable as to carcinogenicity.
I'm pretty OK with it.
Glass fiber - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Safety and Health Topics | Synthetic Mineral Fibers
hmmm..maybe it's just that it's early and i haven't had much coffee, but i actually found the OP to be more helpful than scary. It contained information about the types and amounts of exposure that are likely to be a problem, and ended with something that can be tested.
Wicks that gets shardy are the cheap fiberglass ones...
Use real ekowool braided silica wicks people (in fact I change mine every tank,works better,taste better,produces more vapor).
BTW,I am a master mechanic (gasoline engines-2-strokes/4-strokes,electric engines and general mechanical crap) and the cages you ride are more dangerous to your lungs then what you vape
Edit:
And I agree,some choices of thread titles in here are sometimes borderline poor: this one should read ''silica: is there any dangers'' or somesuch.
Use real ekowool braided silica wicks people (in fact I change mine every tank,works better,taste better,produces more vapor).
BTW,I am a master mechanic (gasoline engines-2-strokes/4-strokes,electric engines and general mechanical crap) and the cages you ride are more dangerous to your lungs then what you vape
Edit:
And I agree,some choices of thread titles in here are sometimes borderline poor: this one should read ''silica: is there any dangers'' or somesuch.
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And where can we buy "ekowool braided silica wicks"?
Wicks that gets shardy are the cheap fiberglass ones...
Use real ekowool braided silica wicks people (in fact I change mine every tank,works better,taste better,produces more vapor).
BTW,I am a master mechanic (gasoline engines-2-strokes/4-strokes,electric engines and general mechanical crap) and the cages you ride are more dangerous to your lungs then what you vape
Edit:
And I agree,some choices of thread titles in here are sometimes borderline poor: this one should read ''silica: is there any dangers'' or somesuch.
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There is a shop up here that sells it but they dont/cant ship to USA...you can try to contact them,they might even be able to slap a few lenghts in an envellope https://www.canvape.com/product-p/silica.htm
I personnaly use the 1mm,its actually bigger than 1mm,more like 2 (its 1mm stretched) its also big enough for everything on the market
There is a shop up here that sells it but they dont/cant ship to USA...you can try to contact them,they might even be able to slap a few lenghts in an envellope https://www.canvape.com/product-p/silica.htm
I personnaly use the 1mm,its actually bigger than 1mm,more like 2 (its 1mm stretched) its also big enough for everything on the market
I found this to be neither alarmist nor fear mongering. This is far better thought out and reasoned than anything else I have read on the subject. Since we use amorphous silica, (if I'm reading between the lines correctly) the only danger is irritation to the lining of the throat and lungs, as our body will in time, either absorb or expel amorphous silica. There is no risk of silicosis with the use of amorphous silica.
If we are using crystalline silica, which we aren't, but if we were, use of a P100 filter between the wick and the mouthpiece would also eliminate this hazard. (as well as trap all our ejuice vapor
)Bravo! This thread should be a sticky somewhere.
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Was it ever decided if silica wick material was amorphous or crystalline?
I sometimes work with fiberglass insulation but not full time. Iv seen full time guys work with and without a disposable respirator. It has bothered me a bit before if I install it for days.. But my doc says I have still have good lung function especially considering I'm, was, a smoker.
I sometimes work with fiberglass insulation but not full time. Iv seen full time guys work with and without a disposable respirator. It has bothered me a bit before if I install it for days.. But my doc says I have still have good lung function especially considering I'm, was, a smoker.
And 20 years from now....
That's the sad part and has been evident in the workplace throughout our history.. There are things that we just don't know, or some know and don't tell.
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