The Mother's Milk Thread ( Suicide Bunny E-liquid )

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BluzKing

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.... Any diacetyl in the obsidian ?

100$ for 60ml, this price is outrageous to me. I can, in 10 minutes, DIY twice that volume for at least 90$ less and it is without diketones :)

That's a great start. Now let's assume you want to sell your juice to others. First, devise a process that will enable you to consistently produce it in gallons, not milliliters. For that, you will need a lot more expensive equipment, and a designated clean room in which to produce it.

And don't forget the city, county, state, and federal business licenses you will need. And you'll probably need employees, and that means more expense, including taxes, health care, OSHA, and accountants, and don't forget the retainers for your attorneys.

Then devise a process to fill the bottles in mass quantities, and of course you'll have to purchase the bottles and equipment to fill them. Then devise your label, marketing, and advertising methods. You'll need space to safely store your supply.

You'll need to pay salespeople to go door to door in B&M stores pushing your product. You'll need to develop and maintain an attractive web presence. You'll need to price your product comparably so B&M stores can make a profit.

You'll need to develop a following, because no B&M store will want to stock an "unknown" juice.

Then you can set back and watch people puke on your product, proclaiming that it tastes "like sour milk." Or even better, if you're successful, you can stand back and watch everybody else duplicate your successful recipe and sell knock off, cheaper juice that tastes "just like yours."

Then perhaps you would better understand the "outrageous" prices, and truly begin to understand "unscrupulous vendors" as they steal your ideas and recipes, sell a junk product proclaimed "as good as yours" and try to run a business and make a profit in a hostile, very competitive marketplace.

I promise you, it's more difficult than it appears.
 

Tangaroav

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That's a great start. Now let's assume you want to sell your juice to others. First, devise a process that will enable you to consistently produce it in gallons, not milliliters. For that, you will need a lot more expensive equipment, and a designated clean room in which to produce it.

And don't forget the city, county, state, and federal business licenses you will need. And you'll probably need employees, and that means more expense, including taxes, health care, OSHA, and accountants, and don't forget the retainers for your attorneys.

Then devise a process to fill the bottles in mass quantities, and of course you'll have to purchase the bottles and equipment to fill them. Then devise your label, marketing, and advertising methods. You'll need space to safely store your supply.

You'll need to pay salespeople to go door to door in B&M stores pushing your product. You'll need to develop and maintain an attractive web presence. You'll need to price your product comparably so B&M stores can make a profit.

You'll need to develop a following, because no B&M store will want to stock an "unknown" juice.

Then you can set back and watch people puke on your product, proclaiming that it tastes "like sour milk." Or even better, if you're successful, you can stand back and watch everybody else duplicate your successful recipe and sell knock off, cheaper juice that tastes "just like yours."

Then perhaps you would better understand the "outrageous" prices, and truly begin to understand "unscrupulous vendors" as they steal your ideas and recipes, sell a junk product proclaimed "as good as yours" and try to run a business and make a profit in a hostile, very competitive marketplace.

I promise you, it's more difficult than it appears.

I can not disagree with what you are saying. It is not really fair to compare DIY cost with running a business.
 

BluzKing

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I can not disagree with what you are saying. It is not really fair to compare DIY cost with running a business.

Well, unfortunately that's exactly what you did in your earlier posts. I'm a firm believer in the free market, and I want to encourage others to expand this fledging industry. Make it, price it, and the consumers will vote for your efforts with their dollars.

I would like to have a label that lists EVERYTHING in a juice compound so I could make a truly educated purchase decision. I would hope the industry would self-police this policy, but time will tell. God help us if the government gets deeper in this business. Then you will truly see outrageous prices--not as a result of production or profit, but the cumbersome costs of taxes, fees, regulation, and endless government administration costs.

I have enjoyed the discussion, and I applaud anyone that takes the time and effort to read and post on this amazing forum, even if we sometimes disagree :)
 

Pinggolfer

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I'm new to this thread but not new to SB MM. I love it and I'll go by the testing Pip did and posted for all to read. I vaped many flavors from many companies and I have no idea what's in their juices and most vapers are really looking for a cheap juice to put in their cheap tanks to vape on their cheap mods. Has anyone tested machine oil as it seems to be the common taste in cheap tanks. I agree too much of anything can be dangerous except money IMO.
 

Mazinny

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I'm new to this thread but not new to SB MM. I love it and I'll go by the testing Pip did and posted for all to read. I vaped many flavors from many companies and I have no idea what's in their juices and most vapers are really looking for a cheap juice to put in their cheap tanks to vape on their cheap mods. Has anyone tested machine oil as it seems to be the common taste in cheap tanks. I agree too much of anything can be dangerous except money IMO.

Pip posted her supposed AP results and then removed it after people started questioning the disparity with other independent tests. But still it's your prerogative to believe what Pip says, what I don't understand is how do cheap tanks and cheap mods enter the equation !?
 

Pinggolfer

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Pip posted her supposed AP results and then removed it after people started questioning the disparity with other independent tests. But still it's your prerogative to believe what Pip says, what I don't understand is how do cheap tanks and cheap mods enter the equation !?

I enjoy SB and have no plan to not vape it any longer. I have no idea what's in any of the other 100 ejuices I vaped and I'm not alone. The cheap tanks are not mentioned nor the machine oil taste a lot of vapers get even after washing them. My point is what caustic particles are included in the tanks we buy or coils we use?. I like to know who is paying for all these independent tests.I feel the results are subjective and two labs can come up with two different results. BTW Pips results are still on her FB page and I did see them posted somewhere but not sure. Happy vaping...
 

Tangaroav

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I enjoy SB and have no plan to not vape it any longer. I have no idea what's in any of the other 100 ejuices I vaped and I'm not alone. The cheap tanks are not mentioned nor the machine oil taste a lot of vapers get even after washing them. My point is what caustic particles are included in the tanks we buy or coils we use?. I like to know who is paying for all these independent tests.I feel the results are subjective and two labs can come up with two different results. BTW Pips results are still on her FB page and I did see them posted somewhere but not sure. Happy vaping...

Maybe you don't care what you vape or the consequence to your health. 85% of vapers that voted on this survey care enough to remore/control those diketones that you do not care about:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/polls/619828-diketone-debate-position-do-you-take.html
 

Pinggolfer

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Maybe you don't care what you vape or the consequence to your health. 85% of vapers that voted on this survey care enough to remore/control those diketones that you do not care about:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/polls/619828-diketone-debate-position-do-you-take.html
The question is who pays for the testing? Maybe BT. There must be a 1000 juice companies who haven't been tested. So you don't vape SB and find out later what you vape is just as bad. Now what? There are no regulations just some independent testing labs who get the most publicly from attaking big companies. I smoked for 45 years and this rumor won't change my mind.

Aspire still sell the naughty's with brass chimney's. China sends 1000's of tanks with machine oil and metal shaving in them. Who's testing them?
 

Mazinny

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I enjoy SB and have no plan to not vape it any longer. I have no idea what's in any of the other 100 ejuices I vaped and I'm not alone. The cheap tanks are not mentioned nor the machine oil taste a lot of vapers get even after washing them. My point is what caustic particles are included in the tanks we buy or coils we use?. I like to know who is paying for all these independent tests.I feel the results are subjective and two labs can come up with two different results. BTW Pips results are still on her FB page and I did see them posted somewhere but not sure. Happy vaping...

Enjoy your SB ! She kept the diacetyl results but removed the A P ones. Not that it would matter to you :)
The relationship between SB and cheap tanks and mod still baffles me, but no worries vape SB with your preferred tank and mod !
 

Pinggolfer

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Enjoy your SB ! She kept the diacetyl results but removed the A P ones. Not that it would matter to you :)
The relationship between SB and cheap tanks and mod still baffles me, but no worries vape SB with your preferred tank and mod !

Thank you I will enjoy my SB as I have. Using it on my prefered tank and mod. Obviously you have a detailed list of all the juice manufacturers who have passed all safety independant lab tests, and vape one of those juices. I also vape Hurricane Vapors Fog milk and PVL's NiteLite Vapors Gold. Can you please me tell me how thye made out in the tests?
 

SmokingAStogie

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I tried this out at my local vape shop and i can tell you this:

Milk is milk, no .... but this one has a strong strawberry flavor to it as well. Kind of like... Strawberry milk. I do not like it. I personally like Cuttwood's Unicorn Milk more. It has a strawberry taste to it as well but not nearly as strong as mother's milk. To each his own. Vape on!:vapor:
 

Mazinny

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I read now SB hid their test results. Well they are on their site. I'm no chemist so take a look as they are not hidden or have been taken down.

http://thesuicidebunny.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/SB-Lab-Report.pdf

We are talking about the acetyl propionyl results, not diacetyl. Read this thread if you didn't follow the issue around September and October of last year. Starts at post # 45. If you don't want to read all of that, start around post # 120 and read up to about 150.
 
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Tangaroav

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Diacetyl and acetyl propionyl testing on Suicide Bunny (Sucker Punch and Mother's Milk)


NIOSH has apparently set the safe standard for A P at 137 micrograms per day for workers, according to Dr. F . Sucker punch has 221 and Mothers Milk 400 per ml. So if you vape 3 ml of Mothers Milk you are taking in 1200 micrograms etc...

Obviously everyone should do their own research, but according to Dr. F, diacetyl and pentanedione ( acetyl propionyl ) are essentially the same molecule and their risk is identical.

Still not as harmful as smoking, just to put things in perspective.

Info passed on for Pinggolfer
 

Mazinny

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Thanks now can you point me to the test results for the other ejuice companies? Or is it just SB which was tested? I can't seem to find other test results so please post a link.

Ping, i don't think anyone denies that other vendors have diketones in their product as well ( although many have removed them ). SB was unlucky to have theirs tested, but the bad publicity was in no small part due to the way Pip handled the issue. Posting AP results and then removing them when people started questioning the disparity, instead of addressing it is bound to lead to people questioning her test. So they did, and she disabled the comments on her video and started erasing every negative post on facebook ( and there were dozens if not hundreds ).

This issue is a lot more important than SB.
 

Mazinny

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If you read the thread, you will find out how the SB testing came about. I can understand though how she feels singled out, but her attempts at damage control were amateurish and came across as disingenuous. I am not sure what your position is to be honest, there seems to be a little shifting of the goal post going on :) Do you feel there are no diketones in her juice, or that it doesn't matter to you. If the latter, then obviously it's you prerogative to vape whatever you want. If the former, then we obviously disagree.

But either way, i am done discussing SB. Never really cared for her juice to begin with, even before i was aware of Dr. Farsalinos studies and the issues surrounding diketones. My hope was that SB as one of the more successful vendors in the industry would set an example in removing them, but thankfully other vendors are beginning to do that.
 
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