The perfect genesis setup

[huysus]

I'm on a quest to build the perfect genesis setup. My definition of a "perfect" setup is one that can do a sustained vertical burn. Hold the PV staight up and down, no tilting at all, and mash the fire button. Does it dry out after so many seconds or keep on going until the tank is dry? This test tells you if your wicking is working correctly. I'm not there yet so I wanted ask the experts here to help identify variables that effect wicking. I'll start the list:


1) Type of mesh - We know from the experiments in the 500 mesh thread that it wicks faster than lower grades meshes.


2) Power level - Higher power levels requires faster wicking to replenish the juice that is vaporized.


3) Mesh treatment - Oxidized, un-oxidixed, boiled, washed with soap, torched before rolling, juice burns, etc. I noticed something odd the other day while preparing a wick. I washed the mesh with dish soap and rolled it up. Then I torched only the top of the wick. Then I soaked the entire wick in juice and lit it on fire. The flame stayed on the torched section only. Does that mean the torched section has better wicking?


4) Wick dimensions - How much mesh is used? Is it rolled tight or loose? Is there a hole in the middle? Is it snug in the wick hole or is there a space between the wick and the wick hole wall? I noticed that if the wick is touching the wall, it slows down capillary action due to adhesion.


5) Juice composition - Thinner juice wicks faster than thicker ones so high PG juice wicks faster than high VG juice. This is also temperature dependent. A juice that is too slow in Chicago in the winter may be fast enough in Miami in the summer. You also may have noticed that once the wick and body of the device has warmed up it wicks faster.


6) Atomizer dimensions - If you have a thick deck, there is more metal in contact with the wick, causing more adhesion. I read here of someone countersinking the wick hole of the AGA-T and improving wicking because there is less metal contact.


7) Coiling method - Direct wrap on the wick or drill bit method. Does the more solid contact of the direct wrap provide more heat sinking of the coil to the wick and thus prevent it coils from glowing as fast when the wick is running dry-ish? Maybe this has nothing to do with wicking but I'll throw it out there anyway in case someone has a theory of why it matters.


I think what makes this hard (and fun?) is that these variables are somewhat interdependent. For instance, if you prefer to run at a lower power level, a smaller wick would work just fine. But if you throw 20 watts at the same wick, it's going to dry up pretty quick.

 

[Thrasher]

The flame stayed on the torched section only

there is a lof of confusion i notice between juice wicking and juice retention. the burned part will now hold juice more then the unburned part and any juice in the mesh will be pulled up to this flame.

I use 500 unoxidized and rolled solid but not tight. as long as the wick is working a lot of variables in your questions can be erased such as dry hits, power variables etc.
when using a method like the drillbit coil the idea is the coil is not digging into the wick, just lightly touching it and the heatsink effect will be lessened causing the coil to be more responsive when voltage is applied and with a proper acting wick the juice will vaporize as fast as it can reach the coil.


the one thing i find most interesting about geni's is 100 people can have 100 different setups with the same results, yet 10 people with the identical setup can have 10 different results.

 

[vapdivrr]

although there may be a coralation between being able to vertically burn very long in relationship to being a perfectly wicking coil, i beleive that it could be overkill. imo why would your wick need to do this unless you vaped it vertically? if your wick performs awesome at the angle in which it is vaped then its good. now if you do actually vape it vertically (which is kind of weird) then maybe this is an important prerequisite of your wick. sometimes i think people put to much emphasis on this vertical wicking thing. like right now i am testing out the new ceramic wick, which so far is outstanding compares to ss mesh, but not once have i worried about it performing vertically, maybe it does maybe it doesnt, but to me it doesnt matter for i dont vape it vertically. as long as it wicks at the angle in which you vape it out, that enough for me. now you do have alot of other very important questions that do have varying results based on set-up, and these can be answered, but the best way to find whats best for you is experimenting and time.

 

[huysus]

there is a lof of confusion i notice between juice wicking and juice retention. the burned part will now hold juice more then the unburned part and any juice in the mesh will be pulled up to this flame.

That's very interesting and new to me. Can you expand on this?

the one thing i find most interesting about geni's is 100 people can have 100 different setups with the same results, yet 10 people with the identical setup can have 10 different results.

Exactly! That's why it's so confusing to new people. I wanted to isolate the different variables involved to make troubleshooting easier.

 

[huysus]

although there may be a coralation between being able to vertically burn very long in relationship to being a perfectly wicking coil, i beleive that it could be overkill. imo why would your wick need to do this unless you vaped it vertically? if your wick performs awesome at the angle in which it is vaped then its good. now if you do actually vape it vertically (which is kind of weird) then maybe this is an important prerequisite of your wick. sometimes i think people put to much emphasis on this vertical wicking thing. like right now i am testing out the new ceramic wick, which so far is outstanding compares to ss mesh, but not once have i worried about it performing vertically, maybe it does maybe it doesnt, but to me it doesnt matter for i dont vape it vertically. as long as it wicks at the angle in which you vape it out, that enough for me. now you do have alot of other very important questions that do have varying results based on set-up, and these can be answered, but the best way to find whats best for you is experimenting and time.

Oh I agree with you that vaping vertically is weird. But it is the worst case scenario and if your setup can pass that test, you know it is robust and don't have to worry about a dry hit if you vary the angle or when the tank is low or if the wick is not on the bottom.

 

[Thrasher]

Exactly! That's why it's so confusing to new people. I wanted to isolate the different variables involved to make troubleshooting easier.

its nearly impossible to make it one size fits all.

how hard do you pull the wire? how was the wire prepared not just by you but by the factory, was it pre heat treated? did you run a torch over it? are you sure your piece is .06 inches like mine? did they use the exact same amount of nickle?

when you torched the mesh did you do it at 900 degrees or 1300? moving the torch at 1 cm per sec or 4?
sounds like a bunch of what der furk is he asking but this is how its going to break down. every piece, every step, every variable will have to be accounted for.
the best we can do is show everyone this is how we wrap the coil this is how we adjust the hotspot. as no two people will do the exact same thing and have the exact same materials.


whew now about the mesh. too much scientific theory to it but basically the burned part if you look under a magnifying glass will be fuzzy ish in texture, now meaning the surface area has increased and will now hold more fluid, when the juice in the wick is set on fire the area with the most juice will burn first.
if the capillary action within the mesh is working, the clean part, which does not hold much juice to begin with will move all the fluid to the flame/burned part, drying out faster and leaving the flame to just burn off the juice that is soaked into the carbon fuzz.

if you try to light the whole wick it should still burn off residual juice.


and while i dont vape vertical i sure dont vape horizontally either, and with a proper working wick i never need to tilt to purposely soak the end.

 

[huysus]

its nearly impossible to make it one size fits all.

how hard do you pull the wire? how was the wire prepared not just by you but by the factory, was it pre heat treated? did you run a torch over it? are you sure your piece is .06 inches like mine? did they use the exact same amount of nickle?

when you torched the mesh did you do it at 900 degrees or 1300? moving the torch at 1 cm per sec or 4?
sounds like a bunch of what der furk is he asking but this is how its going to break down. every piece, every step, every variable will have to be accounted for.
the best we can do is show everyone this is how we wrap the coil this is how we adjust the hotspot. as no two people will do the exact same thing and have the exact same materials.

Good point...too variables. How about listing the factors that have the most effect? So maybe a person just starting out who is trying to put 20 watts on a 20mm #325 wick and getting frustrated can look down the list and say hmm, maybe I don't have enough flow to keep up with the amount of power I'm using. Perhaps I should use more mesh and switch to #500.

whew now about the mesh. too much scientific theory to it but basically the burned part if you look under a magnifying glass will be fuzzy ish in texture, now meaning the surface area has increased and will now hold more fluid, when the juice in the wick is set on fire the area with the most juice will burn first.
if the capillary action within the mesh is working, the clean part, which does not hold much juice to begin with will move all the fluid to the flame/burned part, drying out faster and leaving the flame to just burn off the juice that is soaked into the carbon fuzz.

if you try to light the whole wick it should still burn off residual juice.


and while i dont vape vertical i sure dont vape horizontally either, and with a proper working wick i never need to tilt to purposely soak the end.

That makes perfect sense. Thanks. I'll give unoxidized another try. Do you do ANY prep at all? Washing, light burn with a lighter,...? Or just cut a piece, roll it, and insert?

EDIT: Oh nevermind, I just saw your setup pics in another thread. Nice.

 

[vapdivrr]

Oh I agree with you that vaping vertically is weird. But it is the worst case scenario and if your setup can pass that test, you know it is robust and don't have to worry about a dry hit if you vary the angle or when the tank is low or if the wick is not on the bottom.

i definatly see the point in wanting it to wick verically for a long time, and a good set-up probably will. i just dont think it should be on the top of the list for a set-up. as long as the results are awesome in the position in which you vape, its fine .

 

[StaircaseWit]

i definatly see the point in wanting it to wick verically for a long time, and a good set-up probably will. i just dont think it should be on the top of the list for a set-up. as long as the results are awesome in the position in which you vape, its fine .

This is a good point: who vapes completely vertical? I suppose with a bent long drip tip like some I've seen, it's feasible but I don't think I've seen anyone actually vape with the device completely vertical.

But, the goal of the thread is a noble one. I just don't think, as Thrasher said, that you can isolate every variable. There's just too much going on with SS mesh in a Genesis-style atomizer.

 

[huysus]

This is a good point: who vapes completely vertical? I suppose with a bent long drip tip like some I've seen, it's feasible but I don't think I've seen anyone actually vape with the device completely vertical.

But, the goal of the thread is a noble one. I just don't think, as Thrasher said, that you can isolate every variable. There's just too much going on with SS mesh in a Genesis-style atomizer.

Switch to natural hemp fiber and it'll take you five minutes to set up and you can get to what you really want to do: vape.

Yeah, you guys are right. It shouldn't be top priority. I was just thinking that if we strive for perfection, we would get a better understanding of how wonderful/horrible device works. If a setup is working great I still wonder if it could be even better. vapdivrr, remember back to when you tried 28awg for the first time. It was probably something like "wow this is what I've been missing and didn't even know it."

Anyway, I tried the unoxidized wick Thrasher suggested. Just washing the mesh in dish soap to remove oil and roll. No joy. This using a 2.35mm drill bit, 40mm of mesh, 30awg A1, in a DID clone (2.5mm wick hole). 3/2 wrap, about 0.8 ohms on a mechanical mod. 80/20 pg/vg unflavored juice. Anything lower than horizontal, I would get glowing coils. However, I don't think it was the unoxidized wick that is the problem but rather my lack of skill using the drill bit method that the unoxidized wick requires.

So I ripped that out and tried my usual method. Same length of mesh but this time I washed it and very lightly torched, one quick pass, before rolling. Then lightly torched the top 10mm that will be under the coil. Then stuck a pin in the center of the wick to make it rigid and wrapped the same 3/2 coil directly on the wick. This worked slightly better. I could hold the PV at about 20 deg. from horizontal and not get any glowing coils. Once again though, I don't think it was the mesh prep that made the difference but rather the better coil contact I can get by wrapping directly onto the wick. I'm not say one way is better than the other, I'm just better at direct wrapping coils than using a drill bit.

Here is a picture of the unoxidized wick after about 1ml of juice. It's not obvious from the blurry phonecam pic, but there were air gaps between the wick and coil.


Here's a picture of the oxidized wick after the same amount of vaping.


So if it's not the wick prep, what other factors is effecting the slow wicking? Maybe 40mm of #500 mesh is not enough for 17 watts of power.

BTW, StaircaseWit, my go-to vape is a dripping rebuildable using cotton. Simple, works every time. The gennys are for tinkering.

 

[StaircaseWit]

So if it's not the wick prep, what other factors is effecting the slow wicking? Maybe 40mm of #500 mesh is not enough for 17 watts of power.

The length of mesh you use depends on the size of the wick hole in your RBA. Do you know what size the wick hole is? I was using 75mm (3 inches) of 500 in the AGA-T2, for example. Is your wick pretty solid? Solid wicks have been shown to wick better than hollow or "straw"-style wicks. I never did get a setup that would vape 100% vertical, but I don't vape vertical anyway so I left good-running setups alone.

17 watts is *a lot* of power. You have to (in my experience anyway) ramp up power with a lightly-oxidized wick. There's a break-in period where the coil is oxidizing itself to the wick, and this takes time slowly raising the voltage/power. I start at 3.3V and don't hit 4V until at least a tank is gone with a 2.0ohm coil. I realize you're shooting for "power vaping" with that 0.8ohm coil, but take it slow to get here.

BTW, StaircaseWit, my go-to vape is a dripping rebuildable using cotton. Simple, works every time. The gennys are for tinkering.

Yeah, I'm a natural fiber convert. There doesn't seem to be much interest here in my material of choice -- I think there's still that stigma associated with it, so I've decided to lay off recommending it, which is why I edited my post. Performance is amazing though, and setup is a whole lot easier.

 

[vapdivrr]

Yeah, you guys are right. It shouldn't be top priority. I was just thinking that if we strive for perfection, we would get a better understanding of how wonderful/horrible device works. If a setup is working great I still wonder if it could be even better. vapdivrr, remember back to when you tried 28awg for the first time. It was probably something like "wow this is what I've been missing and didn't even know it."

Anyway, I tried the unoxidized wick Thrasher suggested. Just washing the mesh in dish soap to remove oil and roll. No joy. This using a 2.35mm drill bit, 40mm of mesh, 30awg A1, in a DID clone (2.5mm wick hole). 3/2 wrap, about 0.8 ohms on a mechanical mod. 80/20 pg/vg unflavored juice. Anything lower than horizontal, I would get glowing coils. However, I don't think it was the unoxidized wick that is the problem but rather my lack of skill using the drill bit method that the unoxidized wick requires.

So I ripped that out and tried my usual method. Same length of mesh but this time I washed it and very lightly torched, one quick pass, before rolling. Then lightly torched the top 10mm that will be under the coil. Then stuck a pin in the center of the wick to make it rigid and wrapped the same 3/2 coil directly on the wick. This worked slightly better. I could hold the PV at about 20 deg. from horizontal and not get any glowing coils. Once again though, I don't think it was the mesh prep that made the difference but rather the better coil contact I can get by wrapping directly onto the wick. I'm not say one way is better than the other, I'm just better at direct wrapping coils than using a drill bit.

Here is a picture of the unoxidized wick after about 1ml of juice. It's not obvious from the blurry phonecam pic, but there were air gaps between the wick and coil.
View attachment 179633

Here's a picture of the oxidized wick after the same amount of vaping.
View attachment 179634

So if it's not the wick prep, what other factors is effecting the slow wicking? Maybe 40mm of #500 mesh is not enough for 17 watts of power.

BTW, StaircaseWit, my go-to vape is a dripping rebuildable using cotton. Simple, works every time. The gennys are for tinkering.

oh yes i do remember, well there have been good results with un-ox wicks, but come to think about it i am not sure if i have seen anyone doing this with the configuration that you are attempting. so i am not really sure. i however do not believe that 40mm of mesh is not good enough for the lower resistances that you are after. i believe that with a sub 1 ohm coil with so little wraps you need to increase your amount to at least 80 mm , i personally use about 4 inches of 500 mesh in my aga with 28g, oxidized wick, 3/4 wrap 0.8 ohms/ coil wrapped on wick in device kind of snug. this set-up has always performed with awesome results. although i do oxidize my wicks, my juice doesnt darken. i think most of this darkening happens when you either char you wicks to much or have a big center channel in your wick. most of the great results i see with the peter-k method seems to be mid range set-ups, like 32gwire 2.0 ohms. i wonder if anyone who is using the peter-k method with 28g and low resistances chime in with their results.

 

[donnah]

I'm learning that oxidize or not, drill bit method or wrap directly on the wick, ect. ECT...Even if you have the perfect wick and coil...knowing HOW to vape a genny is just as important as knowing how to set it up.

 

[pdib]

huysus, you're not talking about wicking, you're talking about siphoning. Wicking (imho) takes some amount of time (how ever little, some). I can take, say, a 6 sec. pull on my AGA every 10 seconds until I'm too dizzy to continue the experiment. All the while vertical. But I have to leave a little time between snorts to let the wicking occur. If you are replacing the same quantity of liquid at the same rate as you are removing it, I call it siphoning.

 

[huysus]

The length of mesh you use depends on the size of the wick hole in your RBA. Do you know what size the wick hole is? I was using 75mm (3 inches) of 500 in the AGA-T2, for example. Is your wick pretty solid? Solid wicks have been shown to wick better than hollow or "straw"-style wicks. I never did get a setup that would vape 100% vertical, but I don't vape vertical anyway so I left good-running setups alone.

17 watts is *a lot* of power. You have to (in my experience anyway) ramp up power with a lightly-oxidized wick. There's a break-in period where the coil is oxidizing itself to the wick, and this takes time slowly raising the voltage/power. I start at 3.3V and don't hit 4V until at least a tank is gone with a 2.0ohm coil. I realize you're shooting for "power vaping" with that 0.8ohm coil, but take it slow to get here.

Yeah, I'm a natural fiber convert. There doesn't seem to be much interest here in my material of choice -- I think there's still that stigma associated with it, so I've decided to lay off recommending it, which is why I edited my post. Performance is amazing though, and setup is a whole lot easier.

oh yes i do remember, well there have been good results with un-ox wicks, but come to think about it i am not sure if i have seen anyone doing this with the configuration that you are attempting. so i am not really sure. i however do not believe that 40mm of mesh is not good enough for the lower resistances that you are after. i believe that with a sub 1 ohm coil with so little wraps you need to increase your amount to at least 80 mm , i personally use about 4 inches of 500 mesh in my aga with 28g, oxidized wick, 3/4 wrap 0.8 ohms/ coil wrapped on wick in device kind of snug. this set-up has always performed with awesome results. although i do oxidize my wicks, my juice doesnt darken. i think most of this darkening happens when you either char you wicks to much or have a big center channel in your wick. most of the great results i see with the peter-k method seems to be mid range set-ups, like 32gwire 2.0 ohms. i wonder if anyone who is using the peter-k method with 28g and low resistances chime in with their results.

The wick hole in the DID clone is only 2.5mm. That's one of the problems. I used a 2.35mm drill bit, the largest I had that would fit. According to Tomcatt's PV app, the theoretical max for a 2.35mm wick is 87mm of mesh. I typically use 50-70% of the max with good results. With 40mm of mesh the wick is not super solid. I typically use about 70-80mm in the AGA-T V1 which has a 3mm wick hole (141mm max). I should probably move this adventure to the AGA huh?

If I was setting up using a vv mod, I would have ramp the power slowly like you said, StaircaseWit. However, with a 0.8 ohm coil, I had to use a mechanical mod. Setup wasn't that bad, I only popped two coils! 17 watts is not really that high for a genesis with a thick wick...ss absorbs a lot of heat. To make it as responsive as a regular atty, you need that much power. The lag from a low power setup drives me insane!

vapdivrr, I have some 28 gauge coming in a few days. Your setup is what I had in mind. To get down to 0.8 ohms with 30awg, I had to use 3/2. That's probably too much power per wrap and the reason it was drying out and glowing. The 28g will allow more coils and spread that heat out a little more.

Thanks for the suggestions guys!

 

[pdib]

so I just finished a 4/5 wrap of 26 kanthal wrapped on a 7/64" (2.78mm) drill bit with a 5" (127mm) 500 ss mesh over a 1/8" (3.175 mm) hole drilled out on my AGA. I'm at .6Ω initially, and .7Ω after a few tucks. I'm finding that I almost have to vape it vertically; because, when I tilt it and the copious juices create "pops", they are very profound pops. FUN!

 

[huysus]

I'm learning that oxidize or not, drill bit method or wrap directly on the wick, ect. ECT...Even if you have the perfect wick and coil...knowing HOW to vape a genny is just as important as knowing how to set it up.

Very true! Even a perfect wick can't help you if you position it on top when the tank is low on juice.

huysus, you're not talking about wicking, you're talking about siphoning. Wicking (imho) takes some amount of time (how ever little, some). I can take, say, a 6 sec. pull on my AGA every 10 seconds until I'm too dizzy to continue the experiment. All the while vertical. But I have to leave a little time between snorts to let the wicking occur. If you are replacing the same quantity of liquid at the same rate as you are removing it, I call it siphoning.

I never heard it called siphoning before, interesting. Kinda like the so-called volcano effect with a hollow wick? Probably not. My physics is weak.

 

[huysus]

so I just finished a 4/5 wrap of 26 kanthal wrapped on a 7/64" (2.78mm) drill bit with a 5" (127mm) 500 ss mesh over a 1/8" (3.175 mm) hole drilled out on my AGA. I'm at .6Ω initially, and .7Ω after a few tucks. I'm finding that I almost have to vape it vertically; because, when I tilt it and the copious juices create "pops", they are very profound pops. FUN!

Whoa! 26 gauge. Nice. I wish I had a drill press. The wick hole in the AGA is so close to middle post in the tank, I don't dare freehanding it.

 

[vapdivrr]

The wick hole in the DID clone is only 2.5mm. That's one of the problems. I used a 2.35mm drill bit, the largest I had that would fit. According to Tomcatt's PV app, the theoretical max for a 2.35mm wick is 87mm of mesh. I typically use 50-70% of the max with good results. With 40mm of mesh the wick is not super solid. I typically use about 70-80mm in the AGA-T V1 which has a 3mm wick hole (141mm max). I should probably move this adventure to the AGA huh?

If I was setting up using a vv mod, I would have ramp the power slowly like you said, StaircaseWit. However, with a 0.8 ohm coil, I had to use a mechanical mod. Setup wasn't that bad, I only popped two coils! 17 watts is not really that high for a genesis with a thick wick...ss absorbs a lot of heat. To make it as responsive as a regular atty, you need that much power. The lag from a low power setup drives me insane!

vapdivrr, I have some 28 gauge coming in a few days. Your setup is what I had in mind. To get down to 0.8 ohms with 30awg, I had to use 3/2. That's probably too much power per wrap and the reason it was drying out and glowing. The 28g will allow more coils and spread that heat out a little more.

Thanks for the suggestions guys!

yes the set up i was referring to is not for the did clone, but for my ac-9 and aga-t, which has a bigger wick then the clones. i never have tried so many few wraps with the 30g so im not sure about it drying out the wick. hopefully the 28g will make the difference. i have done 2/3 wraps with the 28g @0.6Ω and no wicking issues at all. sorry i have to re check the thread to see what kind of wick you will be using this set-up on. but like i said before with this low Ω set-up with the 28g and 0.8 coil you are after, for one it should be on the aga, and 2- a much bigger sized mesh then the 40mm, also it should be oxidized. now all bets are off if attempting to use the peter k method and an un ox wick, for i do not know the end results of this set-up because i have never done it that way. i am not saying it wont work, but just havent tried it that way. and yes a mechanical mod for sure.

 

[StaircaseWit]

Whoa! 26 gauge. Nice. I wish I had a drill press. The wick hole in the AGA is so close to middle post in the tank, I don't dare freehanding it.

I did it freehand. If you can get or have a pair of those rubber-dipped gloves, it's not very hard. I ended up doing it twice because I drilled out both the wick hole and post hole.