The Pila charger--does it or does it not "trickle charge"?

[bushmaster]

I use the Pila and love the speed with which it charges my AW IMR batteries. That said, there has been a controversy here in the past as to whether it trickle-charges after reaching a full charge (bad) or whether it stops charging entirely after the lights turn green(good). My reading from the Lighthound (tactical flashlight gurus)forum tells me that the manual that is sent with the Pila charger(which says it does trickle-charge) is out-of-date and the Pila stops when the lights turn green. Does anyone know the definitive answer to this question?

 

[warlike36]

I would ask Dave at Electronic Cigarettes and AW batteries by Super T

 

[RocketRod]

I don't but when I get home I can throw a meter across a battery with a spacer (or a piece of foil on the + end) to see if I can get a reading. I just got one and didn't read much of the manual. I could do that too. As much as I would like the charger to go into a "maintainer/trickle" type charge I don't think it will. but I won't know until i throw a meter on it.

Could always shoot an email to OverReady too if your inclined

 

[Mudflap]

The big dogs over at the candlepower forums all agree that the Pila terminates charging at 4.20 volts.

I'm guessing the engineers didn't get to write the manual on the Pila.

 

[nerak]

Here is the manufacture distributor in the USA : Pila Flashlights

It does state that there is a trickle charge. However you may want to inquire to be sure.

 

[bushmaster]

Well Tripp, I think they did, but the publishers of the manual have been too lazy to update it since 2005. At least that's the gist of what I've read.
Thanks for the comeback, my friend. That is what I'd hoped to hear.

 

[bushmaster]

Here is the manufacture distributor in the USA : Pila Flashlights

It does state that there is a trickle charge. However you may want to inquire to be sure.

Gee Karen, you sure know how to rain on a guy's parade just when I thought it was Miller time.
Seriously, this is something we need to know for sure. It is kind of a big deal.

 

[Mudflap]

My TR-001 charges my AW IMR 18650's to 4.22 volts pretty much every time.

My Pila charges the same batteries to 4.20 volts pretty much every time.

I have left batteries on both chargers after the LED turn green for much longer than what is advisable, so I'm guessing that both chargers are terminating charging at those voltages. Wouldn't I have overcharged/ruined batteries if these chargers were trickle charging?

Just my observations. I don't claim to know anything definite.

 

[nerak]

Gee Karen, you sure know how to rain on a guy's parade just when I thought it was Miller time.
Seriously, this is something we need to know for sure. It is kind of a big deal.

Sorry, I usually find going to the manufacture may give me the answer I want. If there are questions then they should know. However I understand that these Pila's are manufactured in China and this is only a USA distributor. Maybe they can provide the correct answer? Who knows?

 

[bushmaster]

Sorry, I usually find going to the manufacture may give me the answer I want. If there are questions then they should know. However I understand that these Pila's are manufactured in China and this is only a USA distributor. Maybe they can provide the correct answer? Who knows?

That's why I asked! I sure don't. I do remember a similar conversation taking place over a year ago here between Techno and......can't remember. It was more of an argument over whether the Pila did trickle-charge or not.
If anyone is wondering why I consider this worth dragging out, batteries and/or chargers have blown up and overcharging has been considered a reason for it.
I use my Pila exclusively now and still make it a point to charge when I'm at home monitoring my charger. Still, I could forget or get side-tracked. I'd like to know if the Pila is as safe as I think it is.

 

[nerak]

That's why I asked! I sure don't. I do remember a similar conversation taking place over a year ago here between Techno and......can't remember. It was more of an argument over whether the Pila did trickle-charge or not.
If anyone is wondering why I consider this worth dragging out, batteries and/or chargers have blown up and overcharging has been considered a reason for it.
I use my Pila exclusively now and still make it a point to charge when I'm at home monitoring my charger. Still, I could forget or get side-tracked. I'd like to know if the Pila is as safe as I think it is.

A key point to remember when asking about the trickle charge is that we are using non-pila batteries. We know the warranty is void if other batteries are used. In fact they make a claim about other batteries may be damaged or explode. So right there we are using a product that will not support our AW IMR batteries. If asking any questions you would have to leave out the fact that the battery you use is not a Pila.
Kind of puts us at a disadvantage I think.

 

[bushmaster]

A key point to remember when asking about the trickle charge is that we are using non-pila batteries. We know the warranty is void if other batteries are used. In fact they make a claim about other batteries may be damaged or explode. So right there we are using a product that will not support our AW IMR batteries. If asking any questions you would have to leave out the fact that the battery you use is not a Pila.
Kind of puts us at a disadvantage I think.

Yup, it would, but the basic question would remain the same. I'm sure someone smarter than me(heh,not hard to find)who owns a Pila and a multimeter can test to see if it is indeed continuing to charge after the green lights go on. If nobody gives us a real answer, I guess I'll have to tackle it myself.
What the hell, I'm getting on in years, not a whole lot to look forward to anymore.......

 

[CraigHB]

Trickle charging is something that applies to lead-acid batteries, not so much Li-Ion batteries. The reason is that any 3.7V Li-Ion charger has a 4.2V limit on battery voltage, the charger will not go over that.

The end of the Li-Ion charge profile is specified as constant voltage mode (CVM) where voltage remains at 4.2V for the remainder of the charge cycle. During CVM, current falls off as the cell reaches 4.2V exactly.

A lead-acid charger does not have a CVM. It never exits constant current mode like a Li-Ion. When a lead-acid charger completes the charge cycle, it drops into a lower constant current mode where current is reduced to a programmed trickle. This is beneficial for lead-acid batteries.

At some current threshold during CVM, a Li-Ion charger should disconnect from the cell then indicate charging is complete. That's typically a tenth of the charge rate which is often in the tens of milliamps. Not all chargers actually disconnect from the cell. I would expect that of the Pila, but even if a charger does not, current will eventually fall to zero at some point. It's really not like a trickle charge where the charger keeps pumping in current.

Of course, it's best if a Li-Ion charger disconnects the battery at the end of the cycle and I would look for that in a Li-Ion charger myself. It's just that people are throwing around the term trickle charge and it doesnt' really apply in the truest sense here. But, I suppose it will do for lack of a better term.

 

[bushmaster]

My Pila charger has actually never charged to 4.2. My batteries come off it at between 4.15 and 4.18. I'm not saying that in any way disputes your input. I appreciate the opportunity to learn from someone who knows what they're talking about. I will read your description of the lithium-ion charging cycle over and over again until I truly understand it. No, I'm serious. Some things take longer to sink in for me. Thanks for coming aboard with your info, Craig. This is what I was looking for.

 

[CraigHB]

Welcome,

In electronics, nothing is perfectly exact. There are too many variables in manufacturing processes to make that possible. Usually, the narrower the tolerance, the more expensive the parts. A good example of that is digital multi-meters. You pretty much pay double for double the accuracy.

The official tolerance for Li-Ion chargers is 50mV so that would be a terminal charging voltage anywhere between 4.15 and 4.25 Volts. Personally, I probably would not keep a charger that far out. My own personal preference is probably 4.20V maximum and 4.17V minimum. It's actually better to be a little under than a little over. The reason Li-Ions charge to 4.20V is because it's the most they can tolerate without damage.

You also have to consider the accuracy of your meter. I have an expensive professional multi-meter with .05% basic accuracy. At 4.2V, that's an error of 2mV. A cheap meter you buy from Radio Shack or Walmart may have 1% basic accuracy. At 4.2V, you could have an error of 42mV which is significant with a Li-Ion.

 

[RocketRod]

Looking at my charger, in order to correctly measure if it is providing any type of trickle would require putting in jumpers from the + & - before the battery. Something I am not going to do just yet. But, my manual is dated 2011. It states that there are 4 stages of battery charging. I also assume this is for Pila series batteries.
Stage 1 - Automatic analyzing battery status
Stage 2 - Quick charge
Stage 3 - Slow charge
Stage 4 - Stop Charge (no constant current), stand-by mode
Given that, i'd say there is no trickle.

I work in High Tech R&D, and our voltage & electrical is precise. If the circuit calls for 5v, that is what the lane is, 5v exactly. not 4.98V or 5.01, but 5v. What you will find in equipment here are tolerances that are not exact, because its not needed as that drives up cost.

 

[bushmaster]

Looking at my charger, in order to correctly measure if it is providing any type of trickle would require putting in jumpers from the + & - before the battery. Something I am not going to do just yet. But, my manual is dated 2011. It states that there are 4 stages of battery charging. I also assume this is for Pila series batteries.
Stage 1 - Automatic analyzing battery status
Stage 2 - Quick charge
Stage 3 - Slow charge
Stage 4 - Stop Charge (no constant current), stand-by mode
Given that, i'd say there is no trickle.

I work in High Tech R&D, and our voltage & electrical is precise. If the circuit calls for 5v, that is what the lane is, 5v exactly. not 4.98V or 5.01, but 5v. What you will find in equipment here are tolerances that are not exact, because its not needed as that drives up cost.

Boom! There it is. You have the new and improved owners manual. I bought my Pila about a year ago. Here the old manual reads:
Copyright 2005
Stage 1--Automatic analyzing battery status
Stage 2--Quick charge
Stage 3-Slow charge
Stage 4- Standby mode, trickle charge.

Thanks, RocketRod!

 

[Big Hitter]

Ya but now the question remains ... did they change the charger ?? Or has it always been this way ??

 

[bushmaster]

I was just waiting for somebody to ask that, Tim

 

[tmcase]

What the hell, I'm getting on in years, not a whole lot to look forward to anymore.......

I wish you wouldn't talk like that. You have a lot to look forward to. You have us to look forward to and the lounge wouldn't be the same without you so stop that.