The (polite) Clone/Authentic discussion! :D

[HecticEnergy]

Besides this forum almost every time some one asks me about my setup is from non vapers or ego users and have no idea about mechs
They are surprised to learn that my mech and dripper works much much better than what they know and costs much much less than the average ego setup that you could get here. So yes I'm proud to show my clones and advertise them as such

The average ego starter kit here sells for $100 and my fast tech for $26

Wow, that's nuts... I bought my first ego set for around 80 (1300 mah ego-t, 900 mah ego spinner, evod and pro tank 2 with some juice and a charger). After batteries, charger, wick, wire, multimeter/resistance checker I think my cheapest APV/mech setup with RDA/rta is closer to 110.

40-50 - mod (I usually recommend APV to people coming from egos, less safety conserns than a mech)
20-30 - 2 quality batteries (I usually recommend getting 2 or 4)
15-20 - quality battery charger
20-50 - RDA/RTA
15-20 - multimeter/resistance checker (not as necessary for APV but defiantly a good thing to have)
15-20 - wick and wire
20-30 - liquid (gotta step down the nicotine when moving to RDAs IMO)

Maybe double the set up unless you are using egos for your backups...

Sure, it's a better vape, and it's not too expensive to get into over the initial cost of an ego setup, but rebuilding does take time to get right, and it's a lot faster to swap a pro tank head than rewick or re coil an RDA... I like rebuilding, just saying it's not for everyone.

Sorry, got a little off track from op there...
How can I tie this back to clones vs authentics....
Clones are nice because they lower the bar for entry (cost). I know there are some ok authentics from china (SmokTech and such) but I looked at those and I wasn't a huge fan of the styles (for mechs). I like the smooth look of like the 4nine. I wanted a magnetic switch with no locking ring... But I guess I'm picky... Beyond vape is coming out with some original entry level mods, and I think that is FANTASTIC!
With RDAs even just a few months ago, With the exception of the igo line I can't think of any authentic RDAs that I tried and liked enough to stick with..

As far as renaming the devices "model-a" for example, I think calling it a kayfun clone still gives credit where credit is do (no logo though). And remember ego was like Kleenex. JoyeTech came out with the first one, then they got cloned and improved on, and now we think of ego as a style of battery and not necessary a model name from a brand - like you ask for Kleenex, you probably mean a tissue, you don't care if it's the brand Kleenex or Puffs (just please none of that one ply sandpaper they distributed in public school! Lol). I know this doesn't directly correspond to mechs or APVs as they are already in a category, but I do look at nemesis and kayfun that way, it's a style with similar features to the original.

As always, this is all IMO.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[treehead]

I look at fastech clones like I do unfinished furniture.

I've purchased a number of them. Not always the finest finish or perfect switch, etc. But with a little work, some of them can be dressed/modded to make them very nice devices. Anytime you shop for price like that that's probably what you'll end up doing in most cases. Not that they aren't worth the money; they just haven't been finished.

As others have said, logos are a different matter. I have no problems with polishing them right off. I haven't purchased any clone for the logo. I buy it because I like the design or concept.

I just bought a clone of the SuperT ELA. Extremely difficult to get a new one, though I would have pulled the trigger several times had they just been available at the time. They did a real good job making it, but the finish was absolutely horrid! Fired on its own when assembled, wonky switch, etc. Took it all apart and spend several hours refinishing and polishing, and correcting the switch and locking mechanism problems. Now it is quite a nice mod.

Just realize that the cheap mods are what they are.....cheap. Spend the time the original modmakers spent with theirs and you'll understand why the modmakers charge the prices that they do. They're really not overcharging, they're just doing the work for you.

Couldn't have said it better myself brother! That's why I started this thread; to hear some real (cognitive) thoughts on "why this" or "why that". Super-T products ARE expensive BUT worth every nickel.

~I think Super-T is the perfect example of one side of the "budget spectrum", because they are indeed one of the most expensive makers in the biz, HOWEVER, It's expensive for a reason that's blatantly there, it's extremely well made!

Like you I struggled all night hitting f5 over and over to get the Precise Simplicity 18650 (tm ), because they have an undeniable reputation for fine craftsmanship, and super precision (hence the name). You can tell JUST from the pictures that your going to get a NASA quality piece of shaped stainless steel, with paladium contacts, and a tested button.

Although it doesn't have a .000006 voltage drop, it's perfect in every way, and looks just as amazing as when I bought it (the palladium contacts look like they were taken straight out of a ziploc bag, and I haven't needed to clean it once!). It hits hard, adjusts to everything, has a flawless button, and there's no need for the user to fiddle with it whatsoever.


I'm like you though, I've fixed many a mod with some neodynium magnets, light buffering of moving parts, and even made my own parts for them! Since I literally make my own mods anyway, sometimes a cheap clone is literally all I want as a "starting piece", it's a nicely shaped piece of copper that I'm going to craftfully frankestein into an amazing piece!

Hell one of my favorite 18650's right now is a mix between my favorite authentic, and a button/top cap that happens to perform way better than it's original parts . No need to stress over a bad button! Magnets and a thin layer of vaseline will fix anything (if other adjustments don't work of course).

 

[treehead]

Been using my hc nemesis clone for over a month and I have had to do the following in that time... Replace top and bottom firing pins ($15), replace the crappy bottom button spring with some nice magnets ($10), and a little copper tape ($7) to help with some serious voltage drop issues. Other than having to re-set the bottom firing pin every once in awhile now its pretty solid, but it has taken me weeks to get it to that point. I broke down after a really bad day with it and decided to get my 1st authentic. Hopefully it ships out tomorrow and I'll be append my post.

On another note, I've got a clone mephisto and in the process of tightening down some quad twisted 28g the entire post decided to turn as i screwed it down. I was able to take it apart and re-tighten the connection screw on the bottom, but the pin does not protrude very far and my buddies stringray with the floating 510 connection had issues. I have another clone RDA on the way and if it screws up I'll probably make the jump to authentic as well just to see.

I feel your PAIN brother! lmao I've probably "broken" more posts than any vaper on the planet, simply because like you I work with thicker gauges, and tug on it like a tied up pitbull, all because I "need" to have all my coils looking good.

RDA's are actually the one item I almost don't consider buying from cloners, hell it's even a problem for me with authentics (I bought a 200$ Domina*blank* (won't say because I loved it while it lasted, and plan on buying another), and it was literally the best RDA in the world, but while building on it, the silver 510 pin literally ripped itself threadless. The sucky part was, I really wasn't putting much pressure on it, I was putting a decent amount of finger strength trying to move a coil into the "center post" position, and the center post just gave like frozen butter. (I appreciate that the 510 post was pure silver, but it's really soft metal, and the threads were about as beefy as 36ga wire .

FOR ANYBODY WONDERING WHAT SOME DECENT RDA CLONES/AUTHENTICS ARE, I'VE FOUND OUT SOME BULLETPROOF ONES:
~the Tobh Atty (has NEVER even budged on me, not the amazing authentic, not the infinite clone, not even the 22mm and/or 28.5mm Tobeco clone. I've abused this thing so hard over the course of years (it's my favorite atty clone or not).
~the Asmodus RDA (only authentic available for this one, but this has to be the most tank-like RDA on the planet, the negatives are solid machined, and the positive T-post is a big rectangular block about the size of your pinky running through the middle. I think the only way to get that middle post out (it WON'T spin ever), is to take a chisel and hammer to it!)
~The brass monkee (The 80$ standard functions authentic is amazing for any vaper, it's also indestrucable, plus it's easy to build on, so not much adjustment needed. DO NOT buy the clone of this beauty, it's terrible, just terrible.)
~The Tugboat (is also a tank, thickest walls and deck I've ever seen to date, it's not welded posts, but it's one of the best/tightest press-fitted posts I've experience. Plus the deep drip well doesn't let you do anything too stupid, that may be a con for some, but it's a plus for me. Authentic or TOBECO clone, I can't speak for any others. (Tobeco to me has always been an absolute hit OR a slightly dissapointing miss. Never terrible, but sometimes the best part is just that it works lol.)
~The soldado (cool design, no clone, if you like dual coils and deep drip wells, this is it. You can run this thing over if you want, technically eliminates posts altogether! The only part I didn't like is the weird airflow teardrop shape, good if you like a closed airflow, but a pain if you want more.)
~The veritas (I don't like this one whatsoever, but I build for my buddy everytime on this, and there's no way this thing CAN break. If your a flavor addict, this ones for you. It's just...weird though, I respect the design, but it's just...weird.)
~The 454 BIG block (this thing is built well, priced well, and will do whatever you want. I just recenlty got this one, and it's nearly perfect. If they had a 26650 sized version, I'd be selling my car to get a few dozen. One big sturdy post in the middle, and a cool ring to screw down the negatives, I think you'd have to try really hard to break this one.)

Sorry for the huge write-up , this is just a sensitive and pertinent topic for me lol, I figured I share my painful discoveries with everyone .

 

[Sir Realist]

I personally thing with mech mods a clone and an authentic are more less i mean us as vapers pay upwards of 200 dollars for a metal tube but, that being said I don't mind using a friends clone but, I personally buy authentics unless the clones don't have logos but even then its weird for me. i guess its a moral thing

 

[schuff]

For me it all comes down to the manufacturer of the authentic and the products function. For instance my two most recent authentic purchases were the 4nine and the Veritas. I felt both were innovative products and both manufacturers were nice enough to respond to my inquiries in a way that I was positive they actually answered my questions with either one.

To take it one step further when I damaged the top cap of my 4nine due to user error Tarsius was very understanding and even guided me to a local distributor to buy the part as that would be the fastest way to ensure I could use the device. That makes the $160 purchase worth it for me.

Now when it comes to simpler designed products that use the same design as many others I find a high quality clone.

 

[realsis]

Hi, I think clones have their place in the market and can be a way someone without a lot of money to spend can enjoy the product as well. I understand both arguments but this is the conclusion I've drawn. I myself have both clones and authentic mods. I think the quality depends on the manufacturer. There are different types of clones. A 1:1 clone is a exact copy of the genuine article. If it's not a 1:1 clone there will be some variable between the genuine and clone
I think clones have a good purpose. Helping people who otherwise wouldn't be able to enjoy the product..

 

[noel18]

The only issue I have with clones is that they use the name of the authentic. It's great to have mods at different prices to satisfy different consumers, but putting the brand name on the product is wrong. Clone away. Just give them a differnt name.

 

[USMCotaku]

I recently picked up a panzer clone. The build quality is outstanding. While it does say panzer on it, it also underneath that displays the maker of the clone, so no questions about if it's an authentic or not. At the same time I picked up a tobeco kayfun clone that is also stellar. The only problem I had with it was entirely mu fault (panzer rolled off the table onto hard tile floor, breaking the see through section of the kayfun. Everything else is so solid it came through without a scratch). I do want quality, but there is no way I can afford the price tag of a good authentic, so clones are what I have. I was apparently lucky with my first clone (nemesis style) as I haven't had the button issues some have mentioned. I like to buy my stuff in person, so it's easier to make sure the quality is on par.

(it is nice to have this topic less the mud slinging and name calling btw. The last thread degenerated into such too quickly.)

 

[Circa Survivor]

I honestly don't mind the EXACT replicas with the logos. Yes, it's kind of lame that they do that, but It doesn't bother me personally. I'm not gonna go around saying "dood, look at this sweet Origen V2 it was super cheap lolz." I buy a mod or atty to use it, not baby it and show it off (besides my Reos, but that's a different story

 

[tayone415]

Hi, I think clones have their place in the market and can be a way someone without a lot of money to spend can enjoy the product as well. I understand both arguments but this is the conclusion I've drawn. I myself have both clones and authentic mods. I think the quality depends on the manufacturer. There are different types of clones. A 1:1 clone is a exact copy of the genuine article. If it's not a 1:1 clone there will be some variable between the genuine and clone
I think clones have a good purpose. Helping people who otherwise wouldn't be able to enjoy the product..

From what I understand when a clone says it's a 1:1 that means that the dimensions and the threading is the same as the original and parts can be interchangeable. Is that all it means? Since I know like most everyone there are differences with etching or engraving quality and the logos aren't the same. I haven't compared clones side by side to an authentic but wouldn't the authentic have higher quality materials over the clone

 

[DavidAmonettNashville]

A good question to ask is, "Why hasn't Innokins hugely popular MVP2 been cloned?" I think all our answers are in that question....

 

[USMCotaku]

Because innokin prices their products correctly.

 

[USMCotaku]

From what I understand when a clone says it's a 1:1 that means that the dimensions and the threading is the same as the original and parts can be interchangeable. Is that all it means? Since I know like most everyone there are differences with etching or engraving quality and the logos aren't the same. I haven't compared clones side by side to an authentic but wouldn't the authentic have higher quality materials over the clone

in some cases yes, the authentic will be made of better materials, but not in all cases. The way I understand it, 1:1 will be an exact replica.

 

[imsoenthused]

I love clones because they let me buy and play with stuff I don't need without blowing a ton of money. I mean, once you have a solid working setup it's all just playing around. Nothing against the genuine ones, but I spend too much on motorcycles already. I'd rather have 2 or 3 new vape toys a month than 2-3 a year.

 

[treehead]

So far the only mod i have is a tree of life clone by (i believe) infinite. I love it because it was affordable and although the button is alil... glitchy at times, i don't really mind. Especially since the magnetic upgrade is quite cheap. I haven't had any post breakage as of yet but I'm fairly gentle with my money, i mean belongings.lol. I've heard great things about the originals and i may try one out one day, but right now i just can't bring myself to part with the money they cost. And i share the op's confusion with the clone/original prices. I understand china can mass produce products at a rate and cost that makes American businessmen drool alil, but still it would seem to me that the original manufacturers would be finding a way to compete with the clone prices. I mean if they could drop even half way to the prices of the clones, I'm pretty sure they would put the clones out of business.

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Exactly, and I know a local mod manufacturer here in alaska (he makes batches of 1,000), and it's a beautifully (and deeply!) engraved 26650, made of C11000 (which is relatively a bit pricey, and best for conductivity). It has SUPER thick walls, and parts, for copper especially, you can feel the weight and quality of it. It's contacts are thickly gold plated C11 copper (he has a little display showing one cut in half, and it's nearly half gold), and on top of that, even though it adjusts to everything I own, it comes with a longer set of contacts in case your atty or battery is shorter than usual.

It's truly beautiful, and covers EVERY single need of a mechanical mod (besides a grooved top cap for airflow, but who honestly needs that? lol). And here's the surprising bit, he charges a super fair $60 for it! And believe me, up here in Alaska, EVERYTHING is expensive, gas is $5.11, everything is usually shipped up here, and most of every product is at least 1.5x the cost you'd see in Cali.

Now if a local distributor, who pays for his own CNC machining, employees, shipping, Alaskan taxes, GOLD, and general manufacturing prices can bring a top notch 26650 mechanical mod to shelves for $60.00, why can't some of the more well-known manufacturers do the same? I honestly believe it's hype, it's like egyptian silk way back in history, of course it's not worth a small castle for a silk robe, but because people want it so bad, the silk business is a big'ol cash cow. I think the modders are enjoying a sweet "vaping boom" that alot of them are taking advantage of. Everyone tries to blame it on the production costs, and advanced engineering teams they have, and shipping, and employees etc. but I'm not believing for a darn second.

Flashlight companies are basically the same business, only they have a few extra expensive parts they need to add, combine that with their GARGANTUANLY larger demand and production costs, they STILL crank out (even high quality) flashlights for a fraction of the cost of a cheap stainless mod with brass contacts, and someones fancy logo laser etched on the side. I'm not sure if anyones aware of the flashlight enthusiasts, but they make them out of metals that are exponentially more expensive, and much larger than your average mod as well. Until modders begin to start making mods out of pure silver, or come out with something genuinely innovative, I don't think half of them deserve their money.

From what the local modder explained to me, it sounds like most of them are making close to 100% profit, and maybe more for some of the more extreme cases. Almost no business on earth simply doubles the price of their product because "it's hard to make", whatever lol!

I'm guilty of buying them sometimes though, so I egg it on just like the rest of them. I think the Red Copper LE Stingray, and the Stingray X from JDTech are my best examples of price purchases, that I deemed totally worth it. Because 1) I, nor most of the other modders out there are even capable of that quality. 2) Their performance is outstanding, truly one of the best hitting mods on the market. and 3) They look cool! Way too many boring and/or ugly mods out there for $200, I usually don't care about how it looks, but for $200, it better be satisfying in every way.


As for the Tree of Life, it is a really good authentic, I actually bought the Infinite clone afterwards to see if the copper contacts would interchange (they do!), and I had the same experience with the button. It's not bad by any means, but the locking ring ALWAYS loosened when I didn't want it too, I ended up taking some pliers and twisting it hard in place so it never moved again , and although the finger grips (blocks that were cutout) helped some, I still had a hard time gripping it. Magnets helped out exponentially with the button, the spring that came with the infinite was pretty weak (so was the authentic to be honest), and they both would lean or wobble when sat down, with a heavy atty it would sometimes topple over/fire. The authentic's button was pretty awesome with the magnets, but not much better than the infinite sadly, it still had the super sensitive locking ring, which I can see as a benefit for small fingers, but after the magnets made it much firmer and more solid, I never touched the locking ring.

It's the best looking 18650 on the planet in my opinion, it's a shame it's not a stellar performer. They need to make some bigger and/or silver contacts for it too, because it's somewhat slouchy in the voltage drop department, going from a good copper mod (or ever a good stainless like the turtleship v2 infinite clone) it had a noticeable voltage drop. I didn't notice it much on the higher ohms, but around .2ohms it was blatantly noticeable.

I hope one day someone does a real documentary on vaping manufacturers/clones etc., I think it would be a hit.

 

[treehead]

I love clones because they let me buy and play with stuff I don't need without blowing a ton of money. I mean, once you have a solid working setup it's all just playing around. Nothing against the genuine ones, but I spend too much on motorcycles already. I'd rather have 2 or 3 new vape toys a month than 2-3 a year.

That's what I'm sayin' brother! Ever since I've gotten my 26650 Tobh Atty, and BFM from Bay City Vapers, I've really hit the ceiling of my vaping needs. There's literally nothing else (besides the Asmodus RDA) that can beat it on the market right now!

So I've been happily saving up for a swing-arm for my beloved BMW S1000RR , I had to sell my old 96 bronco to do it, but I couldn't be happier. My momma taught me how to pinch a penny, and that's wisdom alot of people don't understand!

I love her as much as my girlfriend (shhhhhhhhh ), and she's more fun too!

 

[UntamedRose]

I am Not inherently advertise to clones....(well honestly thats not true I have a moral issue with Counterfeits which to many are BUT clones them self no. Maybe thats my issue I should by the true stolen stuffs) I can even see the attraction, 15-60 bucks a mod hell ya. Especially if your new and wanna play!

AND Maybe I just have really really crap luck with clones..........but they pretty much all suck. :/ Not buying that I'm not getting the right ones I read reviews as much as the next person.
But I had a clone just the other day... the button got stuck while laying on it's side. So much so it melted the acrylic DT I had in the atty(not like the whole thing, but the connection) Melted out the rubber bit inside the mod as well.
I thought I had a blown battery on my hands...but after some very very tentative testing. It's working fine(though not using it cause well hell....)
Another one is sitting on my desk here...the lock button is stuck. less then a month old and No one(read all the men I can find) can get it undone :/
Not to mention the other one that was delivered UN-assembled.....and the threading was so bad it couldnt be.

I dont have these kinda issues with my "authentic mods" These things dont die even when I kinda want them too! I got three mods here...my GLV, Rook and ELA.........I'll likely died before they do at this rate...and I'm not even Old yet.

Thought I will say....the market has driven the prices of "authentics" WAY to far up. 60-150 used to be the Norm. Feel like grandpa here but I remember thinking 125.00 would be the most I'd pay for one. WTH Happened!
Building wise they got Easier to make..........but twice(on a good day) as expensive 0o

 

[treehead]

I recently picked up a panzer clone. The build quality is outstanding. While it does say panzer on it, it also underneath that displays the maker of the clone, so no questions about if it's an authentic or not. At the same time I picked up a tobeco kayfun clone that is also stellar. The only problem I had with it was entirely mu fault (panzer rolled off the table onto hard tile floor, breaking the see through section of the kayfun. Everything else is so solid it came through without a scratch). I do want quality, but there is no way I can afford the price tag of a good authentic, so clones are what I have. I was apparently lucky with my first clone (nemesis style) as I haven't had the button issues some have mentioned. I like to buy my stuff in person, so it's easier to make sure the quality is on par.

(it is nice to have this topic less the mud slinging and name calling btw. The last thread degenerated into such too quickly.)

Yeah I believe we should all be gentleman and ladies on ECF, I mean in the end it's just vaping, it's an awesome hobby yes, but you don't see hookah enthusiasts arguing over once copying the other . There's more important things in life.

I think that's REALLY cool with the panzer actually! It still gives credit to the original design, however blatantly displays that "hey, were a different company that made this.". That's totally fair and awesome, borderline free advertising for MCV too . Me and a buddy traded traded for a day (panzer for V3 flip), and the panzer is a pretty darn good mod, I doubt the authentic is much better than the clone though, because you say it was outstanding, and that's about what I got from the authentic too. Lately panzer clones have actually been outdoing the original! The MCV doesn't have the most stell volt drop in the game, and the cloners have been making some slight adjustments to make that better, so I bet you found a good deal . Tobeco has really been on their game lately too, the 26650 Tobh and Stillare clones I've purchased recently are just beautiful. I hold the Tobh monster up to the authentic, and I mean down to the brushed pattern on the identical steel it's literally just a 1.5x bigger Tobh! Thicker walls, beautifully machined with no burrs or rough areas, post holes and airflow are even a little bigger relative to the OG, I actually like it much better. It's solid, heavy, and vapes just like the authentic, the only thing missing are the black oxidized screws, which doesn't make a difference whatsoever.

I hear you on the Nemesis style, I got mine from FastTech as my first mod, and it's an amazing performer, and adjusts to everything under the sun lol. I couldn't have asked for a better first choice, I didn't mean to say the button was terrible at all, I'm just very OCD about my buttons, and (I'm pretty sure because it's copper, and I accidentally made a new set of threads, literally XD, it screws on still, but either the correct way or at a slight angle) because it's copper I was having some slight crunchy issues. However with some magnets, and when adjusted to have a shorter throw, it's a dream, competes with some of my favorite copper mods, and for literally 1/8th the price in some cases!

 

[treehead]

Hi, I think clones have their place in the market and can be a way someone without a lot of money to spend can enjoy the product as well. I understand both arguments but this is the conclusion I've drawn. I myself have both clones and authentic mods. I think the quality depends on the manufacturer. There are different types of clones. A 1:1 clone is a exact copy of the genuine article. If it's not a 1:1 clone there will be some variable between the genuine and clone
I think clones have a good purpose. Helping people who otherwise wouldn't be able to enjoy the product..

I agree sis , and that's the most humane way to look at it, as well as the most fair way to look at it. If competitive clone prices weren't trying their best to give us all a good deal, then vaping (the hobby that literally prevents CANCER, and often helping people choose a healthier alternative to cigarettes) would be an "exclusive" hobby. Which is terrible if you think about it!

I mean, if you want to really improve your health and addiction, and get into vaping, without clones, many would straight up be outta luck. That or they'd have to save up for a painfully long time, and possibly discover what they bought sucks! One of the most infuriating vape purchases I've ever done was buying an authentic Omega RDA (I'm sorry to anyone who likes it, it's just my preference.).

I ordered it straight from the manufacturer for $120 at the time, and they had claimed they have a lifetime guarantee on it, which would refund you under certain circumstances. Well when I got it, being new to dripping, I found out this thing was just terrible, terribly terrible. The deep drip well was almost impossible to build/install my coils in, the drip well LEAKED because some genius decided to punch a big fat airhole in the side of it (the actual design), also since the airhole was part of the drip will, that's where it forever was, it wasn't adjustable whatsoever. That would've been ok if both holes were aimed at one side of the posts, but one of my holes were slightly behind the posts, because of manufacturing error, in other words one of my coils would barely be getting half of the airflow! Without ever even vaping the thing, I tried to install a coil, whilst doing so the middle positive post spun with just the tiniest of nudges, this was a $120 piece of CRAP!

Not even having vaped or touched my lips to this thing, I tried to send it back for a refund, however I figured out their trick that "If the RDA is unwrapped from the sealed bag it came in, we aren't able to return it". WHAT!? How am I even supposed to tell it's messed up if I can't even see it!? The worst customer service on the planet I tell you, so still to this day, I'm stuck with the most expensive, and worst RDA I've ever vaped. Man, I can't imagine if I had it rough concerning finances, if I had to save up for a while to get that dissapointment, I probably would've gone straight to the gas station and bought some cigs.

That's probably the day I started respecting clones alot more lol.

 

[treehead]

For me it all comes down to the manufacturer of the authentic and the products function. For instance my two most recent authentic purchases were the 4nine and the Veritas. I felt both were innovative products and both manufacturers were nice enough to respond to my inquiries in a way that I was positive they actually answered my questions with either one.

To take it one step further when I damaged the top cap of my 4nine due to user error Tarsius was very understanding and even guided me to a local distributor to buy the part as that would be the fastest way to ensure I could use the device. That makes the $160 purchase worth it for me.

Now when it comes to simpler designed products that use the same design as many others I find a high quality clone.

Agreed, I too bought the 4nine when it came out because it was truly unique, and you could tell they tried hard to make the most compact, and simple hard-hitting device. I liked it so much, I went nuts when the 26650 clone came out for it! I would've GLADLY purchased it from 4nine if they had released it, but they didn't sadly, but the clone acts just like the authentic, just bigger.