There was a mod auction thread in News...

[RooksGambit]

There was a thread in News about a mod auction to go toward paying for research. It seemed like a really good idea, and it was started by forum member Kristin, who seems to be a great advocate for our cause.

Why was this thread deleted? Is there reason to be concerned about the legitimacy of the auction? I was thinking about throwing some money behind it, should I not? What's up, guys?

 

[rolygate]

This is a problem for several reasons. Let me explain.

Firstly, this originates from a group of people whose main occupation in life seems to be attacking ECF. They cause a ton of trouble over here and create a lot of work for everyone. Their sole aim when posting here is to cause as much trouble as possible and as many difficulties as possible for the forum staff.

Apparently this was all due to issues that occurred before my time here, so there's nothing I can say about that. However, I have been lumbered with the fallout and I have to tell you I really don't appreciate it. Since all I see coming from them is trolling and multiple IDs for spamming, my opinion is somewhat jaundiced I'm afraid. Perhaps there are legitimate issues to be discussed, perhaps not, but if someone is hitting me I'm not in the mood to talk.

Secondly, as you may now see, anything that originates from that quarter is deeply suspicious. I need time to look at it carefully before I come to an opinion on it. Going on past results it's probably a booby trap of some kind. Therefore it will be quarantined.

And thirdly, how exactly would you feel if someone is stabbing you with one hand while asking you for a donation with the other? Confused, or angry, I think.

And let's leave aside the issue that if this is supposed to influence the FDA or any government agency in the US, the way it's been reported to me (I haven't checked it out yet though) it's a waste of time and money, since only a University or Medical School research project administered and staffed by academics and medics has the slightest chance of having its findings accepted by anyone that counts.

So on balance we are being attacked, and then asked for a favor, in order to pay for a project that seems to have little or no chance of succeeding in its designed purpose.

I am more than willing to discuss future cooperation with anyone but it's a tiny bit difficult while being kicked in the nuts.

Hope you understand now.

 

[SudokuGal]

Let me throw my 2 cents in here. I posted about the auction too...and it was deleted.

It was a legitimate post...and, for God's sake, who can question Kristin!?!

Maybe, just maybe, their is a bit of over defensiveness here. Not everyone who belongs to more than one forum is an "enemy." I think what irritates me the most is the lack of honesty about why...you're the first person to actually admit it. Thanks for that.

 

[dumwaldo]

I am an admin at that other place and i would like to say that what has been alleged is not true.

Our forum does not ban people so if someone is a troublemaker here and member there that does not mean the forum endorses or advocates that members activities over here.

There was some hostility between our founder and the owner of this site but I do not believe she has done ANYTHING to antagonize the situation is quite some time.

I understand SJ's hostilities. I don't agree with them but I understand it since I was around for all the back story. What I do not understand is why the man would stand in the way of something he knows to be for the benefit of the community at large.

Once it is done it going to end up being talked about here anyway because the result will be important information.

DW

 

[RooksGambit]

Sorry to hear that, roly.

I read this on a press release posted by Kristin, who has been an upstanding member of this community since I joined it. The assertion that this is just a booby-trap attack is possible, I suppose, but when it has the support of a well-established member of the community, I tend to take notice.

I was just thinking it might be worth while to proceed in allowing links to this event. Are they not attempting to get research from a University or Medical School? If those are the only studies that are applicable, why do we even bother with throwing our support behind studies that are done by neither of these types of organizations, but independent laboratories?

I don't mean to seem confrontational, but I live in Kentucky, where the ban hammer appears to be hovering over us, and about to come down. I want to support any and all efforts to change the face of the political situation regarding personal vaporizers.

Might it be worthwhile to let the auction be linked to here, and adopt a "wait and see" approach. Certainly, if there appears to be any skullduggery or ingenuine intent here, shut down threads and their associated links. But to close off an avenue of legitimate research and information seems counterproductive to what we need to do to protect vaping?

It just seemed like a good idea, was all.

EDIT: Okay, so I'm not the only one who feels this way.

 

[Elendil]

I actually visited the site where the auction was to happen. I'm not going to comment on the troll factor. I will only say that the starting bids for some of the items seems to be the retail price that you would pay from a vendor. I'm all for supporting a good cause, but I'm not going to pay retail + to do it. Most "charity" auctions I have participated in start at a low minimum bid and then count on the item being bid up to make money for the cause. This seems to want to start at retail and go from there.................

 

[cidu]

This movement rides a tenuous edge .. a peoples movement in a solidifying plutocracy, let not the wedge of division be driven into our root, yes, we get it, you want to protect suppliers profits, but this auction is no danger, there are many that have donated time and effort here, i fyou allow a split here, the two heads will be easier to defeat than one unified force...sure im usually for leaderless decentralised rebelion, but here there needs to be a solid face, no a quagmire of infighting...that can come later,...after we are here as a right, instead of climbing a vccliff.....


what mischief do you fear? Yes, you have some animosity, but factional fighting wont meen mush in the face of a real ban! get it together! wake up! this is a question of freedom...you want to lose more? keep fighting.... want to be free, air your specific grievances and let them be debunked or not.... its not pre-school recess bully time here people

youve both got to understand, the movement has 2 sides, but they need each other, without the suppliers the consumers have nothing to buy, but without the consumers on your side...the suppliers sell nothing, ... supporting us, is supporting you...its bigger than this petty krap... let the auction be advertized

 

[RooksGambit]

This movement rides a tenuous edge .. a peoples movement in a solidifying plutocracy, let not the wedge of division be driven into our root, yes, we get it, you want to protect suppliers profits, but this auction is no danger, there are many that have donated time and effort here, i fyou allow a split here, the two heads will be easier to defeat than one unified force...sure im usually for leaderless decentralised rebelion, but here there needs to be a solid face, no a quagmire of infighting...that can come later,...after we are here as a right, instead of climbing a vccliff.....


what mischief do you fear? Yes, you have some animosity, but factional fighting wont meen mush in the face of a real ban! get it together! wake up! this is a question of freedom...you want to lose more? keep fighting.... want to be free, air your specific grievances and let them be debunked or not.... its not pre-school recess bully time here people

youve both got to understand, the movement has 2 sides, but they need each other, without the suppliers the consumers have nothing to buy, but without the consumers on your side...the suppliers sell nothing, ... supporting us, is supporting you...its bigger than this petty krap... let the auction be advertized

More eloquently than I put it, but: Hear, Hear!

 

[Oliver]

What I do not understand is why the man would stand in the way of something he knows to be for the benefit of the community at large.

Well I don't think it is for the benefit of the community at large. In fact, I think it's a terrible idea - completely pointless and unlikely to have any impact whatsoever.

But you wouldn't have known that, because you never asked me.

Just so you know, if anyone on here used our resources to try to attack you - they would be banned. That's because it's the right thing to do.

 

[RooksGambit]

Well I don't think it is for the benefit of the community at large. In fact, I think it's a terrible idea - completely pointless and unlikely to have any impact whatsoever.

But you wouldn't have known that, because you never asked me.

Just so you know, if anyone on here used our resources to try to attack you - they would be banned. That's because it's the right thing to do.

How is funding research counterproductive to establishing vaping as a legitimate activity? I am genuinely curious. Will any efforts to fund research, regardless of origin, be met with the same obstacles here? That seems like cutting off the nose to spite the face. I don't mean any disrespect by saying that, but that's what it seems like.

 

[Oliver]

This movement rides a tenuous edge .. a peoples movement in a solidifying plutocracy, let not the wedge of division be driven into our root, yes, we get it, you want to protect suppliers profits, but this auction is no danger, there are many that have donated time and effort here, i fyou allow a split here, the two heads will be easier to defeat than one unified force...sure im usually for leaderless decentralised rebelion, but here there needs to be a solid face, no a quagmire of infighting...that can come later,...after we are here as a right, instead of climbing a vccliff.....


what mischief do you fear? Yes, you have some animosity, but factional fighting wont meen mush in the face of a real ban! get it together! wake up! this is a question of freedom...you want to lose more? keep fighting.... want to be free, air your specific grievances and let them be debunked or not.... its not pre-school recess bully time here people

youve both got to understand, the movement has 2 sides, but they need each other, without the suppliers the consumers have nothing to buy, but without the consumers on your side...the suppliers sell nothing, ... supporting us, is supporting you...its bigger than this petty krap... let the auction be advertized

Cidu, I promise you it's nothing to do with suppliers profits. It's exactly how Rolygate described it.

We have had nothing but trouble and antagonism from the other forum, almost since its inception. There's literally nothing we can do to run this forum in the way we see fit, and not to be attacked again and again by their members. Even the original poster in this forum has been seen writing about how he is going to attack us by asking "seemingly innocent questions" shortly before this thread was posted - so you get the measure of dishonesty coming from that place.

If, say, CASAA, or RTV or any number of organisations were doing this, and they'd asked us if we minded them making a promotional post, we'd say absolutely fine, despite it being a pointless excersize.

 

[mamacat]

Rolygate:

With all due respect, I am one of them and have been since June 23, 2009. If you check my posting history here you will find that I have not been here to stir any trouble. I find ECF most informative and entertaining (i.e, the "You Know What To Do....." thread).

This is a problem for several reasons. Let me explain.

Firstly, this originates from a group of people whose main occupation in life seems to be attacking ECF. They cause a ton of trouble over here and create a lot of work for everyone. Their sole aim when posting here is to cause as much trouble as possible and as many difficulties as possible for the forum staff.

I was the original poster of anything about the mod auction here at ECF. There was no mention of anything other than the mod auction, how the proceeds were to be used, and how to participate if one would choose to do so. Please refer back to my post history here at ECF - NEVER have I stirred any trouble here!

Apparently this was all due to issues that occurred before my time here, so there's nothing I can say about that. However, I have been lumbered with the fallout and I have to tell you I really don't appreciate it. Since all I see coming from them is trolling and multiple IDs for spamming, my opinion is somewhat jaundiced I'm afraid. Perhaps there are legitimate issues to be discussed, perhaps not, but if someone is hitting me I'm not in the mood to talk.

I never fathomed that my thread would be deleted. Given my history here, why did someone not PM and ask me some questions? Instead, my thread was deleted and no explanation given. I still come here and I do not troll or have multiple IDs for spamming, so I suppose this is a proper way to handle a supporting member?

Secondly, as you may now see, anything that originates from that quarter is deeply suspicious. I need time to look at it carefully before I come to an opinion on it. Going on past results it's probably a booby trap of some kind. Therefore it will be quarantined.

I would be more than happy to discuss this with you. I was recently in Long Island and was able to sleep right next to ALL of the mods mentioned in the auction. So, I can provide you with details - I had to try them all. So, if it is a booby trap, then I am going to be snagged I suppose.

And thirdly, how exactly would you feel if someone is stabbing you with one hand while asking you for a donation with the other? Confused, or angry, I think.

I was the first one to post a thread about this auction here. I did not believe it or consider it to be stabbing while asking for something. Confused is how I feel, I was angry but it isn't worth the energy really. Instead, I am using my energy to insure that I may continue to vape in my country.

And let's leave aside the issue that if this is supposed to influence the FDA or any government agency in the US, it's a waste of time and money, since only a University or Medical School research project administered and staffed by academics and medics has the slightest chance of having its findings accepted by anyone that counts.

Who says this isn't in the works? Or is this merely an assumption?

So on balance we are being attacked, and then asked for a favor, in order to pay for a project that seems to have little or no chance of succeeding in its designed purpose.

I am more than willing to discuss future cooperation with anyone but it's a tiny bit difficult while being kicked in the nuts.

Hope you understand now.

I really do hope that we can discuss this project. I truly believe it to be for the good or else I would have nothing to do with it.

Many thanks,
mamacat

 

[Oliver]

How is funding research counterproductive to establishing vaping as a legitimate activity? I am genuinely curious. Will any efforts to fund research, regardless of origin, be met with the same obstacles here? That seems like cutting off the nose to spite the face. I don't mean any disrespect by saying that, but that's what it seems like.

Well, firstly, I don't know that it would be counterproductive - I just think it would be pointless. I considered the idea myself a few months back and realised it would be a worthy-seeming but ultimately token gesture.

I do have a little insider knowledge by the way, but I'm bound by my word not to let on, currently.

If you really, really want to make a genuine difference, you need to carry on writing to your elected representatives, and seeking out organisations that will help. And write to the FDA and insist that everyone you know that vapes writes to them with their experiences.

We get an awful lot of speculative stuff on here about the FDA and their links to the pharmaceutical industry, but we get very little written about how the absolute best thing to do right now is to get all vapers to write to them expounding on their personal experience etc.

 

[RooksGambit]

SJ, I have never, not one time, been openly hostile or anything resembling it to these forums, or its members. I have this place to thank for so much help in my first few weeks of vaping.

I don't wish to propogate some silliness (and it is) between forums. Just because you believe the pursuit of independent research to be pointless, doesn't make it a bad idea. The members here should have the choice (we're all big on choice here, right?) to put some money behind research if they want to.

And I have written the FDA, both independently and as a part of the public from whom they wanted to hear comments.

I also advocate to my local restaurants and bars. Many of the owners of which I am on a first name basis.

Yes, I am a member of the "other" forum rolleyes, yes I did state that I am good at appearing innocent when I am not. The reasons behind my statements are thus, however: I believe that none of the moderators or yourself would take me seriously in genuinely wanting to help put forth positive efforts to aid our community if you knew that I was a member of the VF.

Which seems asinine, but by your own comments appears to be true. Do you see what I'm getting at? I am trying, on a personal and local level, to help all of us. But I fear that my efforts and those of others are being undermined or outright ignored, because of some childish hard feelings between a few people.

The people who are participating in that auction include some of the trusted vendors from this very website. Might it ultimately be pointless? Sure. That's always a possibility. But don't we owe it to ourselves to try? And if you think it won't matter any, don't bid on anything. But don't keep others from doing so because of a subjective opinion. That's all I'm saying, sir. With as much respect as I can muster.

I seriously hope I'm wrong.

 

[Oliver]

I'm really sorry Rooks, but I don't think you quite appreciate my position.

This isn't about me, and how I feel personally, despite being on the receiving end of some horrific verbal attacks (including several death threats, I might add). It's about the fact that I have a duty to do what I feel is right by my team and, indeed, the community as a whole.

The auction is fine by me - but none of the moderators here, the admin or myself wish it to be promoted on ECF. We don't think it will achieve anything, and we don't feel that the people doing it are acting in the best interests of the community - although I do not wish to dispute their good faith.

As to the suppliers here - it's totally their call if they wish to take part in the auction. That's nothing to do with me at all.

 

[dumwaldo]

Just so you know, if anyone on here used our resources to try to attack you - they would be banned. That's because it's the right thing to do.

It is our policy to not ban or edit peoples posts. I am sure you are already aware of that. We do that because we believe that is the right thing to do.

we simply have a difference in beliefs. I do not see that as any reason why we can no co exist without such levels of hostility. If we shut down tomorrow do you think the toublemakers here would stop making trouble? No they would simply find another place to convene and brag of their exploits.

I am not asking for any restrictions you have against our website to be lifted or even justified. All i am asking as that you realize that we are doing as much as we can to make this entire auction dissociated with our forum. this is not a veiled attempt to promote ourselves. It is an honest effort to do something positive for the entire community.

I am not here to start trouble or cause any wars. I have said what i wanted to say and just wish you would reconsider your position on just this one specific event. You may not agree that it is going to be beneficial in the long run but if you look around you there are other people that do believe it will be and i am not just talking about me and the crazy chick.

An act of benevolence here could go a long way, you never know.

DW

 

[Piedlourde]

ffs....is this ever going to end?

 

[abudman]

I'm really sorry Rooks, but I don't think you quite appreciate my position.

This isn't about me, and how I feel personally, despite being on the receiving end of some horrific verbal attacks (including several death threats, I might add). It's about the fact that I have a duty to do what I feel is right by my team and, indeed, the community as a whole.

The auction is fine by me - but none of the moderators here, the admin or myself wish it to be promoted on ECF. We don't think it will achieve anything, and we don't feel that the people doing it are acting in the best interests of the community - although I do not wish to dispute their good faith.

As to the suppliers here - it's totally their call if they wish to take part in the auction. That's nothing to do with me at all.

Whether it achieves anything or not is it really any different than any other classified ad that you don't personally like the vendor? If you don't want to bid you don't have to but if you do and you feel you are getting a product for a decent price then why block it? Would it be ok to post it in the classifieds?

 

[can't win]

Spike here... I know you will ban this account even though I do not have multiple identities and have not posted here in many months.

I had not planned on posting... but I am thoroughly disgusted that you would suggest that I have not tried to work with you. I asked you to participate in this research months ago. I asked for you to make an "anonymous" donation if you wanted to keep up the forum "war". You ignored me.

First off I am a little aggravated that you would speak so condescendingly of me when I am at least 5 years your senior and I have done WAY more than my share to protect ALL of our right to vape! I am also a college professor and have access to many academic environments (I went to NYU for my undergrad and got my grad degree at Adelphi University). I am posting this publicly so there will be no question that I am being forthright...
I have worked on this study with Murray Laugesen, Joel Nitzkin and Bill Godshall. We put it together. We got a lab to do the testing at a very reasonable price. We submitted the study to THREE IRB's... and each one told us that they would not allow it until the FDA had regulatory control. We now sit waiting to do the study and all we have is time to raise the funding to do the research. We cannot submit the study to the FDA because they will only accept it if we concede that the product is a "drug delivery device". Most of the people involved in the study feel that it should be a "reduced harm product". So... instead we plead with the FDA to consider a third category (not tobacco and not drug delivery device) and allow us to do the study.... and when they finally come to a decision... we can do the study... but not unless we have enough MONEY.
So... we have come up with a few ways to raise $. We have had many UNIQUE and CUSTOM mods DONATED for FREE (BECAUSE people have SEEN what the vapers club has done for the community!!!) and all income would be profit going directly to research.

We have spoken in front of legislature and senate. We have met with attorneys general. We have compiled a mailing list and set up mass letter writing campaigns. We set up pages with the email address or phone # of whoever needs to be reached when a ban is about to be set and we PM and email everyone we know and ask them to please contact these people and share their feelings and stories. We stay up til all hours of the night doing research and reading studies so that we can write our own and have them be better. We wrote press releases quoting people who would rather have their comments remain private so they are not outcast from their medical communities and then we deal with them the next day when they are angry that we used their quote. We ignore our families to call the lab or teach ourselves chemistry so that we can do a better job analyzing the results of the studies. We set up international calling plans so we can conference call other countries to get help from doctors around the world. We raise awareness by setting up local meetings all around the country and we get ready to build an army to fight this war. The war is NOT between us and YOU... it is between ALL of us and THEM!!!

You should really seriously reconsider the way you are handling things. Just as you cannot control what some of your mods and admin do here... I cannot "control" the members over there. ESPECIALLY cause they were all the bad kids in class and the degenerates (no offense guys... I am a degenerate too!). I have not personally endorsed ANY fighting here and I have gone out of my way to put all .....ing about ECF in a private room so it is not visible by the public. I did this voluntarily and I have tried to work things out with you guys... you just have not been very receptive.

I have asked rolygate a number of times to contact me by phone or skype so we can work things out. I have been out for a little bit.. but I have not gotten an email back.

I have been holding these people off all day... and I have been PMing people and begging them not to start a war... but you BANNED one of our members just for asking you why her thread was deleted??? How is she supposed to feel? Do you even care?

So... all that said and done... I am sure this will be deleted as every other relevant post on this stupid forum is... but since it was only intended for you SJ... that is fine. Go ahead and delete it.

I just want you to know that you STOPPED us from doing this work and we would not allow that. Now you are trying to do it again??? When they ban vaping in the US cause no one did any studies... your forum will be shut down and the suppliers will be broke. If you refuse to do anything about it and you truly think that we should just sit back and write letters to the FDA... by all means go ahead. Let me know how that goes. Me, Godshall and Nitzkin have all written them and 2 of the 3 of us who got responses got the same form letter saying "drug delivery devices can bve approved by doing X". I would have sent you a copy... but you were too busy BANNING people to care! In fact I would have posted it here if I had not been BANNED... but I was not allowed.

So... anyway... you have my info if you need to reach me. I gave chris my phone # and skype name. I am done... I am sick and tired of fighting them AND you... we are supposed to be on the same side... I always looked upto what you had done for the community.... but now? I am truly ashamed of you.

 

[Oliver]

We do that because we believe that is the right thing to do.

But it isn't. It's the wrong thing to do - and I don't think that's a matter of belief.

Are you seriously trying to tell me that you would not ban anyone in any circumstances? I find that hard to believe.

Just entertain yourself with a couple of thought experiments about this - I don't need to be explicit, surely?

I'm sorry, I just don't buy this. I also don't buy into the whole testing idea. How much do you think you are going to raise? It won't be enough to do the necessary tests, of that I am certain.