Tips, Tricks, Comparisons - 510 and KR808D-1

[wegster]

A few of us managed to sort of temporarily derail the VX2/'new 901' vs 510 thread, with discussions on the 510/Dura/Dura-C/Titan/Yeti and the KR808D-1/Vapor King/Vaporello/Nebula/Easy Cisg/Zeus

So, to avoid continuing there, new thread.

Edo tells me I'm 'doing it wrong' on the KR, and I'm telling him he's 'doing it wrong' with the 510.

Pieces from other thread:
me:

The 510 certainly does *not* need to be topped off after 10 hits, if filled properly. For me, the 510 is more consistent than the VK/KRD808D-1 has been. Either one's a decent choice - convenience and generally good throat hits/vapor from the KRD, but the carts sometimes flake out and get a funky taste/burn even *before* refills, and aren't very consistent for me so far from cart to cart...plus limited in flavors if you don't want to refill (plus, you have to smoke it anyway for a bit, with limited flavors, before you can/should refill..which may itself result in still some nasty taste combos)...while the 510 is 3 piece, and at least on USB passthrough or manual batteries, has been quite consistent, and provides more throat hit and vapor than the KRD so far. I like them both, but they are different.

Edo

Wegster....you're doing something wrong on the Vk. If you see my early post on the VK I was complaining a lot as well. But if you know how and when to refill they will blow the 510 away. Do you have the correct carts....with the small holes? DO you have the correct batteries....the long two hole batteries. I agree the carts can be hit or miss....but you have to make them a hit every time. You do that by making sure they are correctly filled at the beginning(some are half empty). THe atomizer hole is centered and there is no cartmaterial going in the ato hole. When you do that and then start to vape I think it will blow away anything out there. I forgot every 50 hits add 4-5 drops of liquid. The problem with these devices are that they are not uniform some batteries have two holes some have four....some carts have large holes some have small holes. SOme batteries have small holes and some have large holes. What you want is the Long batteries with two very large holes....but the carts that hove small notches/holes.

IF you get the correct carts and batteries you'll be amzed at how good the VK is. I am comparing them right now side by side.... the throat hit from the VK is far stronger....vapor production as well. The only problem with the VK is that I am very afraid I am inhaling cartmaterial fumes. IF it wasn't for that I wouldn't even bother with any other device.

As far as the 510 it is a very good device....but I have to top off alot since I inhale very hard and long. If you have any advice on how to fill the carts properly I am all ears.

me

I've got carts coming from elsewhere to compare, but have had a 'good' KRD cart. Then it's very close to my 510.

I've tried topping off a fresh cart with 5 drops from battery side, let sit for a bit, try toking on it. I try a refill as soon as the taste changes or vapor (for that cart) deteriorates. I've tried refills of anywhere from 5 to 15 drops. The draw is general is ok, just a bit on the light side for me. Without a closeup pic of the 'right carts' vs the 'wrong ones,' or more batches of carts, I'm unsure can tell the 'good vs bad' apart on the cartomizers.

Don't get me wrong, I like it, it's just not the 'perfect' e-cig for me (but am still spending $ on carts, and trying to see if it improves..) And yes, am with you on the fumes. I believe I found a few pics, of the 'new cart style' with added wrapping (which didn't burn, IIRC) around the inner atty/wire...sure wish I could find it now, but will take the next 'burnt' cart apart, and get some pics.
...
Using a syringe on the 510, a fresh cart holds right at 1ml of fluid, but you've *got* to fill it from the bottom. There's a 'straw mod' thread going strong, which at first seemed it's only to allow those dripping/topping off to give the air at bottom (when refilling) of the cart somewhere to escape to, something I didn't 'need' filling my carts from the bottom up with the syringe. However, I think it's really just a (cludgy, IMO, who wants *another* piece to their e-cigs?!) variant on the 'drill hole in cart' mod others found earlier (not in the intake tract, but through the outside of the cart, into the bottom of the inner cart), which will also allow air to come *in* from the cart bottom and let it 'breathe', using up more of the liquid in the cart/helping with wicking.

Anonomo

Wegster, I'd like to confirm your findings with refilling 510 carts. A syringe is definitely the way to go. The straw mod is more trouble than it's worth if you're refilling with a syringe. I've tried it and found it pointless and no longer worth the effort. The 510 goes thru liquid fast, I've come to the conclusion that it is necessary to carry around a bottle of juice and top off as needed. The 510 batteries are another matter, I have some that are long lived and others don't last 30 minutes. Purchasing a PCC was the alternative to lugging around multiple batteries. The atomizers are rock solid, I've not had a failure after 30 days on a rotation of 2. I clean them every 7-10 days with an alcohol soak. I'm happy with the 510 overall , it's one heck of a vapor generator. Battery life is my only negative so far

Edo

Wegster we have hijacked this thread...Please start a new thread...I am not computer savvy...so don't know how to post pics of the carts. But it seems to me that you said that the vapor isn;t too great on most carts and the draw is too easy...I have a feeling that you have the larger hole carts. Use a metal file and file the ato rim down to make the holes about half what they are now. It seems you have the good batteries. So you should see a great deal of improvement once you get the cart holes smaller.

I just tried both of these devices using Johnsons creek Cured Tobacco juice....there is a big difference. Now they both give a crap load of vapor and the the 510 performs as well as the VK if not a tiny bit better. Also for the first time the 510 gave consistent hits....didn;t trail off. But both have less of throat hit than when using my other liquids ie. cigar liquid. The VK dopesn't perform nearly as well with the JC juice vs the cigar/tobacco juice form bestecig/eastmall. I guess my other juices are way too thick and don't wick well with the 510 but work very well with the VK. BTW starting yesterday I used the hole in the cart method for the 510 carts...that helps a lot with the wicking.

Start a new thread and I will join you on monday when I get back from Vegas. Also I really am interested with the new improved carts that you mentioned that are more burn resistant. Post pictures.

 

[wegster]

As a related item (which I think I totally borked in the video I did and said 1ml), the 510 carts hold exactly 1/2 ml, when filling from a syringe from the bottom up. Filling a cart with the poly fill (from mfgr) removed, only increases the capacity by 1/1th a ml to .6ml, plus whatever is held in the (blunt) needle as 'slop', so +/- .1ml. This is an improvement in capacity over just 'topping off' and is quite easy to do. This solves the issue the 'straw mod' does in a less annoying fashion - when filling from the top, air pockets form at the bottom of the cart, not allowing a 'full fill.'

The 'straw mod' has another purpose, which I didn't get at first, but is still, well, annoying. The second purpose is when you're drawing liquid *out* of the cart (via inhaling/vaping and drawing the liquid into the atty wick), it allows air in from the *bottom* of the cart more easily, in theory allowing better extraction/more vaping before the cart seems to be dry. I believe this is entirely the same idea as the 'put hole in cart' mentioned by the 901 guys, which places a small hole into the 'inner cart' (not the passageway you inhale through), towards the bottom. Both of these solve the same 'problem,' just one is annoying (to me ), playing with straws, one more piece...versus a single small hole in the cart. Note the hole in cart, if done to the right size, will *not* result in a ton of liquid dripping out of the cart, due to surface tension on the liquid.

 

[wegster]

@Edo
I did a pair of videos, which include the KR808D-1 and the 510. The second one also has a cart being disassembled from the KR, with a bit of discussion on it. Not sure if that will help, but:
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/video-reviews/18560-m401-kr808d-1-mini-review.html
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...0-510-review-comparisons-m401-kr808d-1-a.html

 

[wegster]

Pics of the 510 cart, disassembled, and where the 'hole mod' goes, if you're so inclined to do it, and stop playing with straws

Comparison, KR808D-1 cartomizer at top (which itself is roughly 3/4 of it's length atomizer/wicking material)

Remove the outer mouthpiece, to show inside:

But wait, there's an inner disc in there yet, like the KR808D-1s have, but on the 510 this is IMHO what controls the 'draw' of the cart (hole size + the fixed side chambers), plus also keeps any errant moisture from making it to your mouth (unless you refill/overfill and it goes into the inhalation path/chambers excessively). So, we take that one out as well. Note - there is what may look like a hole in the bottom of the juice chamber in this pic..it is not a hole, but a forming/casting mark instead.

Note the 'cross section' where the piece cuts across horizontally? That's where you are refilling the juice. The small sections on each side is where your breath goes on inhale.

You can measure upwards now (or just not disassemble the thing, and measure from the mouthpiece), to find the bottom of the juice section, or, you can also notice an imprint on the cart itself, where the inner juice 'chamber' was molded. This is roughly the bottom of the juice chamber, on the same plane as the juice chamber, so it only pierces into the juice chamber, and not the inhalation path. You can choose to heat the needle or not, the plastic is relatively soft:

And the cart with hole made, very close to the bottom (towards mouthpiece) into the juice chamber. Look for the small 'white dot,' that's the hole.

@Edo - I then filled the cart, and took 15 5 second long/steady drags off the cart, one after another, in a few minutes. Still vaping strong here

 

[wegster]

Meh. I may need to be careful on the size of that hole, stand by, at least one of them did indeed leak on me. :-/

 

[RsL]

Meh. I may need to be careful on the size of that hole, stand by, at least one of them did indeed leak on me. :-/

I tried two different sized holes today in a couple of carts. A really small hole only leaks when you fill it past it's capabilities, but doesn't leak while vaping. But overall I'm back to using the straw inside because it just works a little better and gives an easier draw. As usual, your mileage may vary!

 

[Cellmeister]

You Can Always Still Melt The Hole Back To Seal It Or Make It Smaller As Well.

~Keep Vapin~!

 

[wegster]

I tried two different sized holes today in a couple of carts. A really small hole only leaks when you fill it past it's capabilities, but doesn't leak while vaping. But overall I'm back to using the straw inside because it just works a little better and gives an easier draw. As usual, your mileage may vary!

Yep, I was kinda wondering and went scouring through misc carts (my desk looks like a mad scientists lab right now, plus carts everywhere :-( ), found a few I'd used, with holes, without issues. I've been *trying* to use a blunt needle syringe lately to do refills, and a sharp needle works much better..plus doing several mixes, of varying thickness. When I use the blunt needle, I also tend to lift the fill out, that + thinner liquids = not great. Sharp needle, thicker liquid, or slightly smaller hole = all good. Gonna play a bit more with it, but using the same liquid for consistency.

Sure would be nice if they'd mold them with a 'breather' in the first place, though! (Think small molded channel, like the straw, can't come out, etc).

 

[EDO]

The straw method...never seemed to work for me. The hole method works ten times better for me. I do get leaky carts when refilling sometimes...but the fact that I can go through a whole cart using JC juice on my 510 is pretty damn cool. The reason I mention JC cjuice is because thick juices don;t work well for me with the 510. Before I could only do about 4 drags before needing to top off....now I can go through the whole cart....with much more consistent hits.

 

[EDO]

Wegster....did you ever try to file down some of your carts to make the holes smaller. Try it...if you do have the large hole carts.....it will make a huge difference. I saw your video....a properly filled cart should produce double the vapor you were producing. As I said before most of these carts aren't filled properly. That is why some of them you can only vape for about 50 puffs before they go dry. That is also why some of them start burning the cart material very early on. Anyway top off one of your carts before starting to vape....and file the cart down a bit and see if it makes a difference. Also they work best with thicker ejuices. Mine work far better with eastmall juice than JC juice.

 

[wegster]

Hi Edo,

Ok, so the hole *did* improve things for you, then? If so..yay

I've been topping them off, but I think we've got some QC issues, too. Changing batteries goes from 'this is a very light draw/don't like it' to 'wow, this now feels like a cigarette, don't want it harder.' This is with the *same* cart.

So, not quite sure what to do there, although I am tempted to grab a file or some emery from the garage, as I do get the point of it, just limiting the size of the airway to increase/change draw resistance..(kinda worried if I swap to the next battery I then won't be *able* to get a hit, though!).

I've been topping off anywhere from 5-15 drops on them (KR808D-1s) before starting them. I'm unsure there's a 'real rule' in effect - I'm sure you can put more in, or until it won't accept more, and then let it sit overnight, perhaps, otherwise, just 5 or so drops, puff, 5 more, puff, etc...have been trying most combinations.

Note I'm not convinced, but it's possible there are still multiple manufacturers on these guys, with possible different results. I know the 'old carts' were in 4 packs. I've now got some in 5 pack, plastic and foil blister pack sealed, as well as others in 5 packs but loose in a white box of 'atomized cartridges' (both types still have the cartridge condoms as well as the inner silicone tube). On the former, carts have been really utterly hit and miss for me, even when topped off, nearly right away 'burned.' On the latter batch, so far it's better, no burnt taste yet, but am experimenting a bit and perhaps putting more fluid in them. Although, you've seen the other thread...so I suspect I'll be disassembling a handful of these things not too far off, including new...

 

[EDO]

Ahhaaa, Now your seeing what I am talking about the inconsistencies..LOL. Remember I was telling you want the the long batteries with two large holes and the carts with the small holes....that is the holy grail of vaping. You have some batteries with small holes...and other batteries larger holes....but your carts (probably the newer vk carts) have larger holes. You want large to be with small. So if your carts have large holes you have to use them with the small hole batteries and vice versa. I get my stuff from eastmall...their carts have small holes and are pretty good....but some of their batteries (white ones) have large holes and some of their batteries (black) have small holes and small space/channel for airflow between + and - contact of the batteries. I was getting a bad case of fish face with the black batteries so I started to make the holes much larger....and now they work much better. Now who knows maybe the next time I order from them things might change. The point is the draw shouldn't be too easy or too hard....if it is, something needs to be adjusted on the battery or the cart.

Another tip...you're might be choking your carts from the beginning .....5-15 drops are way too much unless the carts are super dry. Always take the top off... fill a few drops from the top....turn over add a few drops from the battery end. Now turn over....if you see the cart material is pretty wet....you have overfilled. Take a napkin and blow out some of the liquid onto the napkin......when the cart looks moist but not wet then it is filled correctly.

Hope all this will help you like the hole in the cart method helped me with the 510. Believe me if you get everything in order you will absolutely love the KR808d-1.

 

[wegster]

EDO - you mean to say you're topping off the KR808D-1s out of the box, by pulling the mouthpiece end apart as well, essentially checking it's 'moistness level,' dripping a few drops from the battery end, waiting, then checking the mouthpiece end (still disassembled) again, repeat, then closing back up and finally smoking it?

I've seen many say they top off any new cart with 5 drops from battery end, some roll it, some let sit, etc, and others saying 'more.' Just making sure we're on the same page here...sure seems to reduce the 'convenience' of the 2 piece if that's really how you're topping off for every cart? (or is that 'just sometimes as a sanity check?)

PS - On JC juice...still no starter pack (ordered some time ago), but the Mint Chocolate madness is awesome

 

[EDO]

Wagster....This is just to start the cart off....you don;t know how "good" the cart is so you don;t know how many drops to put into the cart. So ONLY before you vape... you do what I outlined above. You have to open the cart anyway...Some of the carts are filled properly and some are bone dry. Some of the carts the atomizer tube is touching the wall....so you have center it before starting to vape. Some of the carts, the cart material is going into the ato channel.....nudge it out with a tooth pick. I try to standardize my carts before starting to vape since these things are hand made...they are a hit or a miss....I try to make them into a hit every time. Now when you do all this and fill the cart correctly(takes a minute), you can refill from the battery end from then on. Every 40 hits put 3-4 drops from the battery end ....couldn;t be easier.

I think JC juice is quite tasty and good. It works well with the VK in the sense that the atomizer seems to last longer without burning the cart material....let me know if you agree. But as far as vapor and throat hit I get a lot (about 2X) more vapor and throat hit with the thick juices that have higher PG...but with less taste. When using JC juice... the 510 and VK are equivalent to me...I might give a slight edge to the 510. What do you think....does the juice make a difference?

 

[wegster]

Edo - heh, touching the wall, as in the inside of the metal cart? 8-o 8-o
If so, each I've popped apart so far have been reasonably consistent in looks, just not juice.

But ok, as I'll be digging into these a bit more for the other thread, sure, will test each for 'juice level' (dunno of a better word for this one) and top off based on that, then seal them back up.

I'm not getting much of a throat hit out of the JC, at least not the Mint Choc..at the moment, moreso with the 510, but I have the 'easy draw' battery of the KR/VK at the moment, which I do think makes a difference. But it's still rather tasty. I expect to play a bit with it yet, might be nice in a slightly sweet tobacco blend, or even sweet enough to make me like the original tobacco or the Camel (TW and EM). I'm definitely seeing a difference in general spanning juices in the 510, throat hit mostly, but also in vapor production as well, even at all the same nic amount. I'm thinking the more heavily flavored juices may be using a higher amount of flavoring, which often itself has PG and alcohol or water in it, maybe add some VG to it?

Also have no idea RE: the KR - have you had better luck with thinner or thicker juice in it for refilling, or not sure/unknown at this point?
(from a longevity standpoint)

 

[EDO]

Well with the 510 I think the best juice is is the JC for me because I hate to top off every four hits....even with the hole in the cart I can only do 20 hits before needing to top off with my thicker juices....and the hits aren't consistent. With the JC juice I get very consistent hits and I can got through almost the whole cart. With the KR- I am filling them up the first time with the JC juice and refilling them later with my thicker juices. That way I get pretty good taste, vapor and throat hit. I use only use tobacco flavors so mixing them up is not a problem for me. I still have to go though more carts to be sure... but it seems the carts last longer with the JC juices because of the better/uniform wicking you get with the thinner juices.

BTW Just so you know...if you ever want to fiddle around with the carts and batteries... the draw on the KR- should be slightly easier than the 510.

 

[wegster]

Awesome, great info, thanks Edo! I had a feeling after ripping apart the KR cartomizer, thinner might do better, or perhaps it may need to wait a *while* after topping off or refilling...the poly seems denser packed inside them, even though the 'outer wick' (not the denser one wrapped around the coil/coil wick) when removed I'd wager is the same poly as in 3 piece carts.

On the draw. Yeah, that's what I started out as, but it must have been 'that battery,' as it's changed since. Will re-read your notes on this again when I get some 'play time', because under casual inspection, all 4 batteries I have seem the same, just do draw differently. Maybe one kit is from a different batch and has some difference I've yet to notice.