A useful (and sensible) perspective on teenage vaping:
Vaping is a new rite of passage for teens - Newsday
Vaping is a new rite of passage for teens - Newsday
Vaping is a new rite of passage for teens
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Bizarre. The writer looks like a grandmother but seems to have written this drivel from the perspective of a "teenager".
IMO,the OP should edit the original post and "break" the link by wrapping with plain code, i.e.:
put your link in between
IMO,the OP should edit the original post and "break" the link by wrapping with plain code, i.e.:
put your link in between
I don't think the article is terribly awful. I think I will let it stand, unless someone can point out to me where it crosses the line into negative propaganda...
Perhaps it's my inference rather than the author's implication. I am by no means arguing, just explaining my thought process.
Since vaping has become more mainstream, I think the term "juice" tends to support the aimed-at-children argument, the general reference to vapers holding cloud comps makes it seem like it's the majority of vapers and not the few, the phrase "kid pleasing flavors" excludes the fact that adults like sweets and candy and pastry flavors are often the go to vape for many of us (I'm vaping Red Airhead right now) and again, are aimed at children, I'm a member of the "older generation" and neither I or anyone I know (except those with vested interests in banning like corporate HR talking heads and insurance companies) are "'frightened" by vaping, and the "kids are experts and can teach us about it" comment is patently false.
I do appreciate the inclusion of the debunked antifreeze and formaldehyde studies, though.
Again, maybe I'm reading more into it than others.
I don't necessarily think it crosses a line and I don't question your judgment in any way, Robino; I respect and appreciate all you do for this community.
Since vaping has become more mainstream, I think the term "juice" tends to support the aimed-at-children argument, the general reference to vapers holding cloud comps makes it seem like it's the majority of vapers and not the few, the phrase "kid pleasing flavors" excludes the fact that adults like sweets and candy and pastry flavors are often the go to vape for many of us (I'm vaping Red Airhead right now) and again, are aimed at children, I'm a member of the "older generation" and neither I or anyone I know (except those with vested interests in banning like corporate HR talking heads and insurance companies) are "'frightened" by vaping, and the "kids are experts and can teach us about it" comment is patently false.
I do appreciate the inclusion of the debunked antifreeze and formaldehyde studies, though.
Again, maybe I'm reading more into it than others.
I don't necessarily think it crosses a line and I don't question your judgment in any way, Robino; I respect and appreciate all you do for this community.
I do understand your thought process. If we censored everything that we do not agree with, would be like a ghost town around herePerhaps it's my inference rather than the author's implication. I am by no means arguing, just explaining my thought process.
Since vaping has become more mainstream, I think the term "juice" tends to support the aimed-at-children argument, the general reference to vapers holding cloud comps makes it seem like it's the majority of vapers and not the few, the phrase "kid pleasing flavors" excludes the fact that adults like sweets and candy and pastry flavors are often the go to vape for many of us (I'm vaping Red Airhead right now) and again, are aimed at children, I'm a member of the "older generation" and neither I or anyone I know (except those with vested interests in banning like corporate HR talking heads and insurance companies) are "'frightened" by vaping, and the "kids are experts and can teach us about it" comment is patently false.
I do appreciate the inclusion of the debunked antifreeze and formaldehyde studies, though.
Again, maybe I'm reading more into it than others.
I don't necessarily think it crosses a line and I don't question your judgment in any way, Robino; I respect and appreciate all you do for this community.
It's when things are being reported that are detrimental to vaping, that is what we need to keep from being linked back to this site. This is not really that bad and it does go with the debate we currently have all across the forum. Children/teens and vaping. It is a hot button topic and one that should be debated. There will be many sides and I honestly can see those sides.
I have joined in a few of those debates myself
I read this article with a real sense of skepticism, based on the title alone. We've seen so many "save the chiiiiildren!" type pieces that somewhere in my mind, I automatically made that connection. As it turns out, that connection wasn't fair in this case. The author appears to have a strong sense of teen psychology in terms of rebellious behavior, and that's what this piece is all about.
What I don't understand about the whole "save the children!!!!" argument, from anyone, related to anything, is the supposed idea that children are:
1. Special
2. Pure
3. Less Human
4. Idiots.
I mean, no lie, prepubescent kids aren't really all too bright. I could tell you a laundry list of stupid things I did. However, despite not being fully developed, teenagers are smarter than we give them credit for. But let me address my above 4 assumptions one by one.
1. Kids aren't special. They are human, just like you and me. They are no more or less valuable than you or me. We've gone so far out of our way to glorify childhood and protect children that we have practically deified them.
2. Based on the above statement, because children have been practically deified, they can do no "wrong" . If they do something "wrong", it is someone else's fault. They are completely immune to normal human faults.
3. This is because they can't possibly be as "human" as adults. You always see this in the news. Teen sex/pregnancy scares, teen drinking/drug usage, teen smoking, teen reckless driving, teen crime, ect ect ect. You ever consider that teens and children do these things, because they are human like you and me, and at some level, these are appealing behaviors to humans? Rather than assuming teens and children are innocent saints who could never consider doing wrong like this on their own, and therefor must have been manipulated by an outside source (Media, advertising, bad friends and role models, ect), why not make the logical conclusion that your kid went out, got drunk, partied, and did all that stuff because if given the opportunity, most humans would love to do that and would see it as a good time?
4. Have you ever tried to force a child to eat vegetables they didn't want to eat? Try to force them to do chores they hate? Have a long and loud debate with them about why they have to go to school, behave, and do what they are told? If you say no and have kids, you are a liar. Anyone who has done any of those things, knows for a fact a teenager can think for themselves. They might not make the greatest decisions, but they definitely have a will of their own. They know when you are being unfair, manipulating them, and such. If you go to any teenager who has grown up in the 1st world and ask them if they think smoking is good for you, the vast majority will tell you they know it causes cancer. Even the ones who smoke will tell you it will kill you. They will also tell you they don't care.
Honestly these articles and opinions always baffle me. Yes in an ideal world young people wouldn't be using substances, but this isn't an ideal world, it never will be. Humans love to put chemicals in their body. We've been doing it before written history. What these people never stop and think about is that despite kids vaping more frequently, they were smoking beforehand. My father picked up smoking when he was 12, my mother when she was 13, my grandmother when she was 17, my brother when he was 10. They did it because it made them "cool" and got them laid. It is highly undesirable, and I get that. However selling cigarettes to minors has been illegal for a good while, and it hasn't stopped kids who want to smoke at all. Instead we should be saying " at least they're vaping" not " omg they are vaping! Ban it! " . Fact is, if adults enjoy it, so will kids, for the most part. Kids will emulate and participate in these behaviors so long as they find them enjoyable. They will do this because they are human. They are fallible, addiction prone, thrill seeking, hedonistic, egotistical humans, just like you and me.
Lastly, before someone flies off at me by taking this the wrong way: I am not saying that children are as intelligent or mature as an adult. I can firsthand say that isn't true. I was mature for my age throughout life(a tough childhood forced me to be), and still manage to look back and think about what an idiot I was. I'm sure 5 years from now I'll look back on my current self and think I was an idiot as well. I'm not saying it should be legal for kids to buy cigarettes/booze either.
What I am saying, is that children are human, and are prone to all the faults adults have. They will chase all the pleasures and vices we do, for the same reasons we do, and we shouldn't be surprised by this. Further, we shouldn't limit the freedom and comfort of normal adults because kids are acting like normal kids. By all means we should step in and improve education and resources to reduce harmful behavior, for all ages. However creating a witch hunt and hyping up an addiction epidemic to scare parents across the world over something teenagers have been doing forever isn't the way to go about it. It is counter productive, it is ineffective, it is disingenuous, and simply wrong minded.
... I really need to stop with the walls of text.
1. Special
2. Pure
3. Less Human
4. Idiots.
I mean, no lie, prepubescent kids aren't really all too bright. I could tell you a laundry list of stupid things I did. However, despite not being fully developed, teenagers are smarter than we give them credit for. But let me address my above 4 assumptions one by one.
1. Kids aren't special. They are human, just like you and me. They are no more or less valuable than you or me. We've gone so far out of our way to glorify childhood and protect children that we have practically deified them.
2. Based on the above statement, because children have been practically deified, they can do no "wrong" . If they do something "wrong", it is someone else's fault. They are completely immune to normal human faults.
3. This is because they can't possibly be as "human" as adults. You always see this in the news. Teen sex/pregnancy scares, teen drinking/drug usage, teen smoking, teen reckless driving, teen crime, ect ect ect. You ever consider that teens and children do these things, because they are human like you and me, and at some level, these are appealing behaviors to humans? Rather than assuming teens and children are innocent saints who could never consider doing wrong like this on their own, and therefor must have been manipulated by an outside source (Media, advertising, bad friends and role models, ect), why not make the logical conclusion that your kid went out, got drunk, partied, and did all that stuff because if given the opportunity, most humans would love to do that and would see it as a good time?
4. Have you ever tried to force a child to eat vegetables they didn't want to eat? Try to force them to do chores they hate? Have a long and loud debate with them about why they have to go to school, behave, and do what they are told? If you say no and have kids, you are a liar. Anyone who has done any of those things, knows for a fact a teenager can think for themselves. They might not make the greatest decisions, but they definitely have a will of their own. They know when you are being unfair, manipulating them, and such. If you go to any teenager who has grown up in the 1st world and ask them if they think smoking is good for you, the vast majority will tell you they know it causes cancer. Even the ones who smoke will tell you it will kill you. They will also tell you they don't care.
Honestly these articles and opinions always baffle me. Yes in an ideal world young people wouldn't be using substances, but this isn't an ideal world, it never will be. Humans love to put chemicals in their body. We've been doing it before written history. What these people never stop and think about is that despite kids vaping more frequently, they were smoking beforehand. My father picked up smoking when he was 12, my mother when she was 13, my grandmother when she was 17, my brother when he was 10. They did it because it made them "cool" and got them laid. It is highly undesirable, and I get that. However selling cigarettes to minors has been illegal for a good while, and it hasn't stopped kids who want to smoke at all. Instead we should be saying " at least they're vaping" not " omg they are vaping! Ban it! " . Fact is, if adults enjoy it, so will kids, for the most part. Kids will emulate and participate in these behaviors so long as they find them enjoyable. They will do this because they are human. They are fallible, addiction prone, thrill seeking, hedonistic, egotistical humans, just like you and me.
Lastly, before someone flies off at me by taking this the wrong way: I am not saying that children are as intelligent or mature as an adult. I can firsthand say that isn't true. I was mature for my age throughout life(a tough childhood forced me to be), and still manage to look back and think about what an idiot I was. I'm sure 5 years from now I'll look back on my current self and think I was an idiot as well. I'm not saying it should be legal for kids to buy cigarettes/booze either.
What I am saying, is that children are human, and are prone to all the faults adults have. They will chase all the pleasures and vices we do, for the same reasons we do, and we shouldn't be surprised by this. Further, we shouldn't limit the freedom and comfort of normal adults because kids are acting like normal kids. By all means we should step in and improve education and resources to reduce harmful behavior, for all ages. However creating a witch hunt and hyping up an addiction epidemic to scare parents across the world over something teenagers have been doing forever isn't the way to go about it. It is counter productive, it is ineffective, it is disingenuous, and simply wrong minded.
... I really need to stop with the walls of text.
If the children argument is correct, the only efficient solution is to keep them locked in government foster homes under 24/24 trained personel supervision.
Which is absurd thus the initial argument must be absurd too.
Which is absurd thus the initial argument must be absurd too.
Which is what the government would like to see, reasonably trained tax paying workers.
I don't mind walls of text when the hold a wall of common sense
I don't mind walls of text when the hold a wall of common sense
Same here. Much of the post is highly relevant to this thread and ongoing debate around eCigs.
As I've said many times before, it is the one regulation that drives them all. I'm confident that no one disputes this, though also thinking some people don't readily make the connection, and thus think it good (for pro-vaping position) to restrict use to minors. I see that as serving ongoing, solid victory, to our adversaries on a silver platter with a pretty pink bow.
Completely with you up to this point, and feel the last line is mostly spot on. The one thing I think you missed, though I don't hold it against you, is that in shared reality, "we are them, and they are us." I can think of no other minority segment of the population where all adults (without exception) were at one time "one of them." And because adults are fallible, addiction prone, thrill seeking, hedonistic, egotistical humans as well, it really is a blurry line rather than one where an arbitrary and magical age suddenly changes things. IOW, many (to most) adults continuously come off to me as juvenile. I also think if juveniles weren't routinely treated like "little idiots" it would be more celebrated to act (or be) youthful in ways that are more mature and less about exploitation.
The first paragraph of this quote is where I would quibble a bit, but not all that much, especially given what is conveyed in the second paragraph. I agree that a child isn't as mature as (some) adults, but also think a 25 year old is, in general, not as mature as a 55 year old. If a line were having to be drawn, I'd go with 40, but then also would wish to revisit all things that deal with this arbitrary line that society is compelled to draw and then use as basis for political discrimination. I'm thinking if it were 40, there would be a lot less discrimination than what exists today.
It's tough to tie this succinctly to vaping rights, as the issue strikes me as way bigger/deeper than about vaping. So, just easy for me to say it is the regulation that drives em all, when it comes to vaping.
I think the article is good as it counters the fear mongering around this fundamental issue and helps deal with political reality for any that would advocate a ban to minors. Going in that direction just makes the rite of passage notion more viable as minors will essentially realize they either trust older generation on alleged harms or give into peers about alleged enjoyment / benefits. And seeing as many adults want to pretend like fear could work this time around, the minor is mostly going to learn, "oh gee, they lied about this too. What else are they being dishonest about?"
Hence, the REAL gateway at work.
If all of your walls of text are like this one, may I suggest you do MORE of them?
That was absolutely spot on, and a lot of people need to hear it.
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