Very positive post from Jonathan Foulds

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Bill Godshall

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Instead of attempting to ban cigarettes (which is specifically prohibited by the FDA tobacco law, and thus would be struck down by the courts), a far more reasonable and responsible solution would be to truthfully inform smokers (and the public) that all smokefree tobacco/nicotine products (i.e. smokeless tobacco, e-cigarettes and NRT) are far less hazardous alternatives to cigarettes.

BTW, the weblink provided by Vocalek incorrectly uses the term "carbon dioxide" instead of "carbon monoxide".

While Jonathan Foulds clearly understands that smokefree tobacco/nicotine products are far less hazardous alternatives to cigarettes, his proposed harm reduction policy solutions have little or no respect for the autonomy of smokers (and/or other tobacco/nicotine users) or their right to be provided truthful information.

Several years ago at the Tobacco Merchants Association conference, Jonathan (and I) presented the comparative health risks of cigarette versus snus (which was much appreciated by the audience).

But then Jonathan told all the tobacco industry representives in the audience that their only appropriate response (after learning this information) should be to immediately stop marketing all cigarettes, and instead only market snus, which turned off everyone in the audience.
 

rothenbj

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Elaine, dugg as suggested, but I have one issue- that last paragraph. Again a minority group of people, the nicotine users, are expected to bear the burden for a government out of control on taxes. Supposedly these taxes and the charges accessed the tobacco industry in general, were put in place to pay for the additional burden that smoking brought on in terms of health cost as well as discouraging smokers from continuing their habit.

Now something comes along that should reduce the risks and possibly remove the initial unhealthy product and the first thing that is mentioned is shifting this tax burden to the new product. To me, this thought is unconscionable. Don't get me wrong, it's not that I feel that this product should go untaxed, but certainly not to the level that cigarettes have been taxed. The e-cig itself is no more nor no less than any other product. You don't have a sin tax on coffee pots because you boil an addicting drug in it do you? You don't put a sin tax on bottles and cans that contain sodas containing caffeine, at least not yet.

If sin taxes are to be charged, they should address the liquid only and then only to a level that qualifies the risk compared to other risk assessed products. If I'm vaping non-nic liquid, I shouldn't be taxed any more than if I was purchasing any other product. Put a tax on caffeine products and processed sugar products based on their risk factors. The same with anything that may have an adverse effect on the overall health costs in America if that's what this is all about. It seems that cigarette users have been getting it stuck to them for quite long enough- additional taxes, additional premiums for insurance, and now reduced employment possibilities due to the anti-smoking movement.
 

scheherezade

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I agree with rothenbj. This is supposed to be the country where people are free to make their own decisions, within reason. It's not supposed to be the country where adults are financially punished for those decisions. That's been going on too long. As a smoker, I didn't want someone else telling me how to live my life, as a vaper, my opinion hasn't changed.
 

Vocalek

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I apologize about the "dioxide". Fingers must have been on auto-pilot.

It is, of course, correct in Foulds' blog.

I agree with Bill that the suggestion to take tobacco cigs off the market would have a hard time getting past the lawyers. But it was just such a change of viewpoint to see Foulds say anything at all positive about e-cigarettes that the blog was worth promoting.

I also agree with Rothenbj about the tax situation. It was stupid of the lawmakers to hang entire programs (such as SCHIP) on the future income from tobacco taxes. Were they not paying attention on the tobacco control community's agenda?

IMHO, it was wrong-headed of government to dedicate tobacco taxes or the proceeds of the tobacco settlement to anything other than covering their excess exenditures for smoker's medical costs.
 

Bill Godshall

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The FDA has no authority to tax anything, and taxation has zero relationship with FDA regulation, and I strongly disagree with Jonathan Fould's sentence regarding e-cigarette taxation (just as I strongly disagreed with Foulds' endorsement of Eissenberg's "not enough nicotine" claims about e-cigarettes).

But if/when FDA reclassifies e-cigarretes as tobacco products, there will be some "regulatory costs of doing business" on e-cigarette manufacturers/importers (as with tobacco companies), but it is unknown if that would translate into higher costs to consumers (as economies of scale created by overall volume increases and increased competition is likely to reduce retail prices).

Only US Congress, state legislatures and some local governments in several states (e.g. AL, IL) have the legal authority to impose excise taxes on tobacco products.

In 1991, I led the first campaign in the US to increase cigarette taxes (for the purposes of recovering public healthcare expenditures due to smoking, to reduce cigarette consumption, and to fund SCHIP) when collaborating with then PA Gov. Bob Casey to raise the state cig tax from $.18/pack to $.32/pack), and I've actively campaigned (more than any other person in the US) to raise state and federal cigarette tax rates since then (including SCHIP last year).

Largely due to SCHIP, nationwide cigarette consumption dropped by 9% from 2008 to 2009. SCHIP's tobacco taxation rates promotes harm reduction (as the federal cigarette tax is $1.01/pack, but the tax on moist snuff is just $.11/can, and large cigar tax rates are significantly lower than cigarette tax rates).

It is highly unlikely that any state legislatures or US Congress will impose taxes on e-cigarettes for at least the next several years, if for no other reason than because taxing e-cigarettes would generate less tax revenue than it would cost for any government to establish, administer and collect.

For the past 15 years, I've been urging the PA legislature to tax Other Tobacco Products (PA is the only state that doesn't tax smokeless, while PA and FL are the only two states that don't tax large cigars). Up until several years ago, I was by Governors and many PA legislators that the $25-$50 million in annual tax revenue generated by taxing OTP wouldn't be worth the political costs of trying to get it enacted).

But if/when sales of e-cigarettes increases by another five or ten fold (i.e. 5-10 times what is now sold), I suspect that CTFK/ACS/AHA/ALA will begin urging state legislatures to tax e-cigarettes.

And since CTFK, ACA, AHA, ALA have been campaigning to tax OTP (at the state level) at the same rate cigarettes are taxed (even though most OTP are far less hazardous than cigarettes), I strongly suspect that these groups will advocate taxing e-cigarettes at the same rate as cigarettes are taxed (e.g. 30% of wholesale/retail price).

I've been the only public health activist who has been advocating OTP tax rates that are lower than cigarette tax rates, especially for smokefree tobacco products.

Bottom line on e-cigarette taxes, we won't have to worry about those battles for several years (and by then there should be a lot more e-cigarette users to help us oppose/minimize taxes on e-cigarettes).
 

rothenbj

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Bill, very interesting post and I do understand that increasing cigarette taxes does influence people away from cigarettes and hopefully on to safer products. I also understand that smokers have been paying these taxes in the name of the additional cost of health care due to smoking. However, when the government, both federal and local, turns around and spends the money for things other than health care, it's totally unfair. Then the insurance companies hit the smokers again because they are more of a health risk and companies start not hiring smokers because of the increased premiums.

So now we move on to methods that should prove significantly safer than smoking yet the first thought is how can we keep getting money from these people. There are a lot of other health risks that aren't taxed at all for their adverse effect on the overall cost of health care.

I just heard the news report on yet another study about the danger to children and adults alike that live within 100 yards of busy traffic areas. There are certainly more people in these situations than smokers and their impact on health care and missed company time has to be similar or greater than the effect of smoking. Should these people pay higher premiums and additional real estate taxes to cover this addition cost to the rest of us?

Should there be taxes on caffeine and processed sugar products because they lead to increased health costs due to the diseases that arise out of using these products. Heck, should competitive sports persons be taxed for the additional burden they place on the rest of us with the injuries they incur?

I know stress creates a lot of havoc health wise. Should there not be taxes placed on companies that are stressful to work for? I know I worked for a few in my lifetime that even got me sick and in sixty some years I've had more stress related health issues than smoking related issues.

I don't want to go overboard with this (which on reading back I think I already did) but you get the point. Smoking isn't the only thing that has an effect on health, but it seems the only one that they really are aggressively taxing. Then once you move on to something that should be considerably safer, the first thought is punishing the same group of people.
 

Vocalek

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To me, that supports prohibition of cigarettes. Do you support that?

No, I don't. But I also don't believe that giving this story more attention would result in actual prohibition.

The point is that this story brings out the scientific fact that in at least one way (carbon monoxide), electronic cigarettes are not as harmful to health as tobacco cigs.

There are so few stories by people in the tobacco control community that say positive things about electronic cigarettes that I don't believe we can afford to wait around for a story that is "perfect" before we are willing to promote it.

The author is a member of the Society for Research on Nicotine and Tobacco (SRNT). We need people in this group to begin to view electronic cigarettes objectively instead of from the viewpoint of their fantasies about addicting the children. If Foulds can influence a few other SRNT members, that would be great.
 

Mammal

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Um... I was pleasantly surprised to find a real, well-reasoned article behind the link regarding the one benefit I conclusively expect from 'going electronic.'

But you might want to fix that title of the link, which makes it read like a critique of EPA policy. [At least you'll harvest a bunch of hits from one side of that political fence..]
 

Vocalek

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Um... I was pleasantly surprised to find a real, well-reasoned article behind the link regarding the one benefit I conclusively expect from 'going electronic.'

But you might want to fix that title of the link, which makes it read like a critique of EPA policy. [At least you'll harvest a bunch of hits from one side of that political fence..]

I have sent an email to Digg support asking them to change the title. I found this under "Contact Us / FAQ"

Please contact support@digg.com to edit a story. Be sure to include the Digg URL of the story you want to edit as well as the updated title, category, or description. You must be the original submitter of the story to request an edit to a story and you must email us from the email address associated with your Digg account.
 
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Vocalek

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OK, success at getting Digg to change the title of the item. However, now the link in the OP doesn't work. I will see if I can get a moderator to change it, since I can no longer edit the OP. Meanwhile, here is the correct link:

Could FDA require cigarettes to emit no carbon monoxide?
 

Sun Vaporer

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