We are still using a tobacco product.

[Butters78]

I said this in chat the other day, and got a really negative reaction. Please correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the nicotine that is used in e juice extracted from tobacco. If not I do apologise. It seems on the site there is a negative stigma towards tobacco. Very similar to the negativity people who don't know about vaping have towards us at times. Let's rewind back to 2010. June of that year I quit smoking with Swedish snus. Not for everyone, I decided to try it after getting a free sample pack of Marlboro snus (the equivalent of blu). I knew there was more to it so I purchased some General snus from a cigar shop and I've been a snuser from then on out. I got to still enjoy tobacco without the risk. I also got into nasal snuff. January of this year I decided to try e cigs because at times I do miss the hand to mouth of smoking and the visual of the "smoke". A friend sent me a pair of Leo batts with a 510 converter and the rest is history. So now I enjoy tobacco and vaping to keep me off the stinkies.I first learned about CASAA through the snus forum. CASAA supports the use of snus as well I just want to point out that tobacco itself in some forms is not dangerous. When you add combustion to the mix, the danger comes into play.

 

[Absintheur]

Would it be better if the nicotine used in e-cigs can exclusively from other vegetables like tomatoes? Personally I wish there was as good a source as tobacco that nicotine could be extracted from to move the e-cig completely out of the tobacco arena but sadly tobacco is the cheapest way to get nicotine.

 

[steliosak]

I agree with you .
The bad thing is the act of burning it and inhaling the byproducts of the combustion.

 

[DC2]

Yes, the nicotine we are using comes from tobacco, and will continue to come from tobacco.

Does that make it a tobacco product? Semantics really.
But very important semantics nonetheless.

As long as it is considered a tobacco product, we could be subject to any restrictions and/or taxes put on cigarettes.
And the only thing we can do about it is get active, and be ready to fight unreasonable regulations.

The place to start is by joining CASAA.
There is no one else who is going to fight for us, other than us.

 

[ohai]

I misread the title of this thread and thought "I thought I was open minded, but vaping Tobasco sounds like a Very Bad Idea...".

Facts are facts- the cheapest way to get nic is from tobacco. If people want to pounce on you for saying so, that's their hang-up, not yours; sweeping certain facts under the rug because we dislike the connection to big tobacco does not help us, indeed, it makes us look sneaky and deceptive, which we are not.

 

[AttyPops]

I don't consider any form of tobacco safe, although some are safER than others. IDK... I agree with post #2 and consider myself tobacco free while vaping.... as much as I would if using NRT gum or lozenges... they also get nic from tobacco.

The semantics come into play legally, with the courts ruling that e-juice is under the jurisdiction of tobacco laws, not pharma laws (badly paraphrased... so go ahead and double check, quote, link, whatever to better info). I consider classification as a tobacco product to be a classification of legal arena for the FDA, not necessarily making it equivalent to tobacco use from a harm reduction standpoint.

So to reitterate. I consider myself to be tobacco free for all practical purposes. Not nicotine free. If I could get nic from tomatoes or synthetic nic at a reasonable cost, I probably would.

... snip....I just want to point out that tobacco itself in some forms is not dangerous. When you add combustion to the mix, the danger comes into play.

I respectfully disagree. I wish people would quit saying that without 30 years of good scientific peer-reviewd proof that it is 100% safe in even one form. Some forms are LESS dangerous than others. Maybe even far less dangerous. But still.......

 

[Butters78]

I should of rephrased.. Not 100 percent safe but a good amount safer than cigarettes.

 

[stormchaser]

nicotine is no more dangerous than caffine.... so, if people think coffee or colas are dangerous.... so be it.

 

[silverslayer]

All this really irritates me. I don't like that they want to associate it with tobacco. That does open the door for the states to ban it and or tax the snot out of it. Hey take a big swallow of your mountain dew or coke lets just call it coffee because it contains caffeine. The government/fda has pretty much ran out tobacco. Coffee,beer,soda,Mcdonalds, that preppies friggin starbucks down the road, whos next on the hit list, And, because the FDA is so damn smart, lawyers are having a hay day with all the drugs the fda has approved. Hey CHANTEX for example. That's FDA approved (Suicidal thoughts please see a physician). I don't have any of those side affects with my nicotine based e-cig. But they'd rather put me on chantex. That says a lot about the FDA and my government. All you have to do is turn on the tv. I just can't wait until all these anti smoking activist have something they like stripped from them or taxed to oblivion because big brother say thats not good for you. I hope to god it's coffee or beer. I hate both, but I for one have nothing against others enjoyment of it. Why keep sending our people to war in the name of freedom, when our basic freedoms are being stripped from us on a daily basis. That is what this is about, freedom to choose for yourself. People have died for those rights. I was A ok with designated smoking areas and special smoking rooms etc... Because I was also a non smoker most of my life too, I know how it is. But to ban and tax it out of existence is wrong. When they did that, I became less than equal. My rights no longer mattered.

So Yea this guy doesn't understand why people take offense to the, "It's derived from tobacco argument" There I just laid it out for ya. I switched to e-gigs because I couldn't afford to smoke any more at $7.50 a pack. Yes let's call it a tobacco product so that I can go back to that. Yes, let's do. Then you won't be able to vape anywhere either because "it's tobacco."

It's the wrong message because in the end all people will hear is the word tobacco....................... There's that word tobacco. IT MUST BE BAD. IT COMES FROM TOBACCO. I DON"T LIKE IT. I COULD GO OVER THERE TO GET AWAY FROM IT BUT NO I HAVE THE RIGHT TO BE RIGHT HERE WHERE THIS GUY IS ENJOYING HIS TOBACCO DERIVED E-CIG. HAY I'LL CRY AND FUSS AND MAKE SURE THAT THIS GUY CAN'T USE HIS E-CIG ANY WHERE I GO BECAUSE MY RIGHTS ARE MORE IMPORTANT THAN HIS. I enjoy vaping too but I can already see it's screwed with guys like this spreading the word. So when it gets banned, taxed to hell and back, or even just outlawed. Remember you were all for calling it a tobacco product.
Every one knows where nicotine comes from so why keep pushing that, and come up with something intelligent to say to help me keep my right,his right, and your rights. To live as you wish without injustice of heavy taxation and bans.

 

[ohai]

All this really irritates me. I don't like that they want to associate it with tobacco.

I get that you don't like it. No one else likes it either, for a variety of reasons, most of which you mentioned. But it will not serve anyone's purpose to lie about it, esp. when as you yourself pointed out, everyone knows nicotine is derived from tobacco, including lawmakers.

Yes, we need to find a better light to present ourselves in, but we can't afford to ever be accused of deception- that would make us no better than big tobacco, imo.

 

[silverslayer]

I get that you don't like it. No one else likes it either, for a variety of reasons, most of which you mentioned. But it will not serve anyone's purpose to lie about it, esp. when as you yourself pointed out, everyone knows nicotine is derived from tobacco, including lawmakers.

Yes, we need to find a better light to present ourselves in, but we can't afford to ever be accused of deception- that would make us no better than big tobacco, imo.

Uh I never said to lie about it. But you don't have to go around screaming it from the rooftops either right......
If you want to protect your right to vape why would you go around highlighting in every thing you do and say that it's derived from tobacco, when tobacco is the big bad word. Then when everyone brings up that point "nic comes from tobacco does it not", then I'd say yes it does and caffeine comes from coffee beans but does that make that coke your drinking, coffee? People are stupid they can here a single word, and all of a sudden every thing associated with that word, is BAD. When a cop pulls you over do you blurt out I just had ten cans of beer. Or do you wait for him to ask. Never mind, I bet you do.

 

[ohai]

Uh I never said to lie about it. But you don't have to go around screaming it from the rooftops either right......
If you want to protect your right to vape why would you go around highlighting in every thing you do and say that it's derived from tobacco, when tobacco is the big bad word.

I honestly don't think discussing it in the ECF chatroom and forum can be considered "screaming it from the rooftops". If we can't be upfront about things here, where can we be?

Then when everyone brings up that point "nic comes from tobacco does it not", then I'd say yes it does and caffeine comes from coffee beans but does that make that coke your drinking, coffee?

Which would be a fair point if the caffeine in your coke came from coffee beans. It used to come from kola nuts, which is why they call it cola, but now I'm pretty sure it's artificially derived and added, since the kola flavor is also artificial. I suppose it could come from coffee; I wouldn't know. Is coffee worse for you than cola, anyway? I'll bet you five dollars it isn't. Wait, what was the point?

People are stupid they can here a single word, and all of a sudden every thing associated with that word, is BAD.

The cure for stupid is never less information, it's more and better information.

When a cop pulls you over do you blurt out I just had ten cans of beer. Or do you wait for him to ask. Never mind, I bet you do.

I don't drink anymore, actually, but when I did, I didn't drive. I suppose you'll think I'm some sort of goody-two-shoes because I don't drive drunk, now. Dang.

 

[Stubby]

I don't consider any form of tobacco safe, although some are safER than others. IDK... I agree with post #2 and consider myself tobacco free while vaping.... as much as I would if using NRT gum or lozenges... they also get nic from tobacco.

The semantics come into play legally, with the courts ruling that e-juice is under the jurisdiction of tobacco laws, not pharma laws (badly paraphrased... so go ahead and double check, quote, link, whatever to better info). I consider classification as a tobacco product to be a classification of legal arena for the FDA, not necessarily making it equivalent to tobacco use from a harm reduction standpoint.

So to reitterate. I consider myself to be tobacco free for all practical purposes. Not nicotine free. If I could get nic from tomatoes or synthetic nic at a reasonable cost, I probably would.



I respectfully disagree. I wish people would quit saying that without 30 years of good scientific peer-reviewd proof that it is 100% safe in even one form. Some forms are LESS dangerous than others. Maybe even far less dangerous. But still.......

You can think whatever you want in your own head, but the reality is that e-liquid is a tobacco product. Its main active ingredient is derived from tobacco so how could it be anything else unless you're using 0 nicotine. Actually NRT products like gum and patches are also tobacco products, and no one has ever said they are not. The only difference is they are used for smoking cessation and have gone through the clinical trials, so they are technically considered a drug.

You appear to be under the false assumption that e-cigs are inherently less harmful them smokeless tobacco products like snus and dissolvables. There is no evidence of that, and even common sense tells us that that is a false assumption. Perhaps it's the decades of brain washing by the ANTZ that has you a bit confused.

If it makes you feel better to be under the illusion that e-liquid is not a tobacco product and that e-cig users are somehow more pure then tobacco, fine and good. But I can't let you get away with that kind of nonsense on a public forum.

 

[Filibuster]

I don't much care if it's considered tobacco or not. I'm just thrilled that I quit smokin'

 

[silverslayer]

I'm not really up to snuff on current vaping news , But the last I read here and every where else, was that the vaping community in general, was telling the FDA hey just regulate it as a tobacco product(so they could get there pvs through customs). Tobacco product, Cha Ching$$$$$$$. Open up your wallet boys, and don't step out in public with that pv. So yes Ohai keep going that route, thats your right to do so. I don't know about your state But here in Wisconsin the tax on tobacco products is ungodly, I'd be willing to bet it's at least 2.00 a pack. I know the last guy raised it at least a 1.50. The signs around here don't say no smoking, they say no tobacco products allowed. Besides I was only ranting to explain to the original poster why people especially me might get defensive about calling it a tobacco product. If you had been shafted as hard as Wisconsinites you'd be ticked too. As far as not drinking and driving I respect you for that, I haven't either by the way. Honesty I don't really care where caffeine comes from, it was only an analogy. I thought you were full of crap about the kola nut's but you were correct. I've never heard of a kola nut. Just like Ron White said ,"You can't cure stupid". I tend to agree. Down in the tobacco belt that argument will probably fly. Here I will just loose my right to vape in public pretty much, and end up paying about double on my,"tobacco Products. So Whatever.

 

[DC2]

I'm not really up to snuff on current vaping news.

Well, with your obvious passion, perhaps you should be.

Here are some subforums to read up on if you are interested...
Legislation News
Media and General News

But the last I read here and every where else, was that the vaping community in general, was telling the FDA hey just regulate it as a tobacco product(so they could get there pvs through customs).

You are partially right, but very wrong.

Yes, a large percentage of the vaping community wanted them classified as tobacco products.
But that was only because the only other alternative was a drug delivery device under FDA control and handed over to Big Pharma.

And it that had happened, you wouldn't have an electronic cigarette in your hands right now.
They would have been banned immediately, end of story.

And only after years and years of testing might you have seen them again, in the form of yet another useless Big Pharma quit smoking product.
Costing at least 10 times what you are paying now, with probably a maximum 12mg strength at best.

That would have been huge and epic fail, and the "vaping community in general" was right to do what they did.
And yes, that didn't solve the problem, it just lessened the immediate impact and the potential consequences, but the war still rages on.

Join CASAA and fight with the rest of us.
Who will fight for us, if not you, if not me, if not us?

If you had been shafted as hard as Wisconsinites you'd be ticked too.

You want to talk about Wisconsin?

Then I suggest you read some of the posts by Kristin here on this forum.
She is in Wisconsin, and she is fighting, and making progress for your state and for all of us.

What are you doing?

 

[Stubby]

You want to talk about Wisconsin?

Then I suggest you read some of the posts by Kristin here on this forum.
She is in Wisconsin, and she is fighting, and making progress for your state and for all of us.

What are you doing?

I agree with everything you are saying.

Some of us have been trying a long time to educate the public about tobacco harm reduction. There is no magic pill in this. Besides CASAA, there are us folks on the ground trying to counter the misinformation campaign of the alphabet soup gangs and educate the public. It always seems to be the same few people leaving comments on articles with obvious misinformation about smokeless tobacco products (e-cigs are essentially a type of smokeless tobacco). I can count on one hand the people who have been reaching out beyond the e-cig community to try and do something on a consistent basis.

It's all to easy for some folks to go on a mindless rant (and one that is largely ignorant of the facts) and think they have done something worthwhile, but in reality they have done nothing. I would really like to know what silverslayer and the rest of the "this isn't a tobacco product" folks have to offer up as a solution. I haven't seen anything that even touches on the reality of the situation.

Besides that, the problem with Wisconsin isn't the tax on cigarettes, it's the tax on smokeless tobacco as we have the highest rate in the country at 100% of wholesale. There are few places that have a no tobacco policy that I have seen, and I live in the most liberal city in the state by a long shot. The vaping laws are actually pretty good as the state does not include vaping in the no smoking laws. You can legally vape in bars and restaurants unless they have a policy against it. Most bars welcome e-cig users. It is also one of the 29 states where it is illegal to discriminate against tobacco users as far as hiring goes. As I said, the biggest problem locally is the tax on smokeless tobacco. That's what needs to change. That's only going to happen after a lot of education by us.

 

[silverslayer]

Hey Stubby, I'm wondering where in any of my post I said it was not a tobacco product Please go through all my post and quote me on that....................... Learn how to read. Blah Blah Blah. Quote: We have the highest tax in the country on smokeless tobacco at 100 percent retail. Thats exactly what I'm talking about right there. Keep shouting that it's a tobacco product and see what happens to e-cigs. Quote: It is also one of the 29 states where it is illegal to discriminate against tobacco users as far as hiring goes. Oh jeez thanks. Just make sure you drive a quarter mile off property to have that smoke break and don't forget to punch out. For your information it's none of business what I do to help this fight. But you can bet your ..., "it's a tobacco product" isn't the first words out of my mouth when I make my fight. Just because I wasn't up to snuff does't mean it was a mindless rant. It's been over a year since i was signing petitions and such and I come here and find this thread. So obviously things haven't changed much their still beating that same dead horse " It's a tobacco product" SO WHO"S MINDLESS.

 

[AttyPops]

You can think whatever you want in your own head, but the reality is that e-liquid is a tobacco product. Its main active ingredient is derived from tobacco so how could it be anything else unless you're using 0 nicotine. Actually NRT products like gum and patches are also tobacco products, and no one has ever said they are not. The only difference is they are used for smoking cessation and have gone through the clinical trials, so they are technically considered a drug.

You appear to be under the false assumption that e-cigs are inherently less harmful them smokeless tobacco products like snus and dissolvables. There is no evidence of that, and even common sense tells us that that is a false assumption. Perhaps it's the decades of brain washing by the ANTZ that has you a bit confused.

If it makes you feel better to be under the illusion that e-liquid is not a tobacco product and that e-cig users are somehow more pure then tobacco, fine and good. But I can't let you get away with that kind of nonsense on a public forum.

Well Stubby, I didn't really say it isn't a tobacco product. It's classified as such. However, the nic could come from potato sources too. Then what?

It's not a delusion, it's a classification. I know of some health programs called "Tobacco Free" where they specifically recommend using NRTs for example. I also qualified the statement with "for all practical purposes."

We don't have 30 years of data on e-cigs. I don't claim anything in particular. However, if I were to gamble, I'd gamble on e-cigs over chew or snus any day of the week. In fact, with the possible exception of a very specially processed Swedish snus, I'd stay the hell away from it if at all possible. Note that that's my personal choice, not an incrimination of snus and dissolvables... like I said.. they are valid forms of harm reduction.

It's 100% sure that chew is carcinogenic. Just not at as high a rate as cigs. It's a valid form of harm reduction. I don't happen to have hard data in front of me, and really don't have the time to go find some, but other than for perhaps specially processed tobacco (like the Swedish snus)...you're the one that's deluded. Harm reduction is one thing. To claim/imply it's safe... wow.

If it makes you feel better to be under the illusion that e-liquid is not a tobacco product and that e-cig users are somehow more pure then tobacco, fine and good. But I can't let you get away with that kind of nonsense on a public forum.

You can't read. However, if I've actually said anything that is specifically wrong (rather and how you twisted it) then please let me know.

I shouldn't allow myself to get dragged into this, but OK. I hadn't intended to discuss relative safety. If you can prove that snus and/or dissolvables are safer than e-cigs, I'd like to see the data. If you can show me ANY data were the concentrations of known carcinogens in e-cigs are higher than the snus and dissolvables, please point me to it.

Not that I had even intended to argue this point. However, my original point of using synthetic, or potato, or tomato extracted nic if it were possible was to reinforce my point about being as tobacco free as practical while still using nic. Not to imply "superiority" of any sort. Nor did I state any safety claims of either product in the post you quoted.

 

[silverslayer]

After a month of using an e-cig I was no longer waking up in the morning coughing up my lungs. That's all the proof I need. I too AttyPops am wondering how I allowed myself to get into a battle of wits with the rock again. LOL