What charger?

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Preloader

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I learned a whole lot about chargers in a short amount of text here. Awesome, thanks. Since the PILA is a PITA to change for battery lengths, I keep it dedicated to my 18650s, and use the easy adjustability of my Trustfire to charge the 18490s, and 18350s. It's a great little system that has been working great for me. I use my 18650s the majority of the time so I get a piece of mind knowing I'm treating them well.

I think I already know the answer to this question, but here goes.

I received 2 Protected EFest 18650s with a larger order I got on the classies. Shoud I put them into my rotation?

I remember reading that protected is unnecessary and will wear out quicker due to the extra engineering...... or something like that. But will it hurt anything to use them in my beloveds?:glare:
 

Technonut

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I'll just quote ProVape... :)

Frequently Asked Questions


.Why does the ProVari need to use high drain batteries (the full technical answer)?

The ProVari uses an internal DC/DC converter that continuously monitors the output to the atomizer load and maintains a constant voltage with an output current limit of 2.5 amps ( each unit is tested to this limit in production, most exceed this limit by .1 to .2 amps). This output voltage is usually higher than the input battery voltage, depending on what the ProVari is adjusted to.

Battery output current is NOT the same as ProVari output current.

Here is an example that shows why. When the ProVari is putting out 5.0 volts at 2.5 amps into an atomizer load, that calculates to be 12.5 watts.

That means the battery has to supply 12.5 watts to the ProVari, at a minimum. In reality it is more because nothing is 100% efficient.

If the battery voltage is 3.7 volts it will need to supply 12.5 watts / 3.7 volts or 3.378 amps minimum. Because nothing is 100% efficient, let's add that in. Most ProVari devices are 90% to 95% efficient. Picking the worst case, 90%, the battery current must now need to be 3.378 amps/ .9 = 3.75 amps. That is a more realistic current draw, but it could be even higher.

WHY?

Let's take a look at what happens when the battery voltage droops lower than 3.7 volts. At 3.5 volts the battery current goes up to 3.968 amps.

But it can be even higher still when the battery droops to near end of charge, say 3.2 volts. The battery output current now goes to 4.34 amps. And we have to keep in mind that this is ONLY the average current. Because the ProVari converter is a pulsing device, the pulsed battery current can be a factor of 2 higher than the average current.

The battery needs to supply pulsed currents of over 8 amps. These engineering calculations show why you need a high quality, Low Internal resistance battery to supply what the ProVari converter needs.

Where does the internal resistance come into play? According to ohms law, when you are drawing 1 amp out of the battery , the battery voltage will droop .1 volts for every .1 ohms of battery internal resistance.

At 4 amps this means the battery voltage is no longer 3.7 volts but 3.3 volts.

If it won't match up to the demands of the converter in the ProVari , We won't sell it. This is why we recommend using AW red high drain batteries only!.

They have passed all our tests and are rated to work with the full range of voltages that the ProVari can offer.


Why do the cheap batteries work at all?

They work when the output is not adjusted to supply high power. They 'get by' running at low power but the full capacity of the battery is never available because of the voltage droop. This is due to the higher internal resistance causing them to shut down early. To avoid problems, only use the approved batteries that we recommend.





Are Li-ion Batteries Safe and which ones should I use?

The amount of power required to run an eCig requires a battery that can store a large amount of energy and deliver that energy on demand rapidly. Because of this requirement lithium ion batteries are the best choice. We all need to respect the amount of energy in these batteries.

But are they safe?

We all hear about the occasional incident where a battery fails in a violent way. This is caused by a short circuit within the cell or if stacked cells are used, one cell can discharge into the other with high discharge rates when one cell depletes its energy before the other.

A mild short will only cause an elevated self-discharge. Little heat is generated because the discharging energy is very low.
If, however, for whatever reason any of the following conditions happens;

1. Internal short circuit
2. Excess external charge current
3. Excess external discharge current
4. Environment conditions

The temperature can rise to the point where thermal runaway can happen that results in 'venting with flame.'
There are two basic types of lithium-ion chemistries: cobalt and manganese (spinel). Typical battery chemistry mixes are cobalt, nickel, manganese and iron phosphate.

Lithium-ion cells with cobalt cathodes should never rise above 130°C (265°F). At 150°C (302°F) the cell becomes thermally unstable, a condition that can lead to a thermal runaway in which flaming gases are vented. To achieve maximum runtime, cell phones, digital cameras and laptops use cobalt-based lithium-ion. Because of the lower temperature whereby the cell becomes thermally unstable, electronic protection circuits are added.

Manganese is the newer of the two chemistries and offers superior thermal stability. It can sustain temperatures of up to 250°C (482°F) before becoming unstable. In addition, manganese has a very low internal resistance and can deliver high current on demand. It is these two features that make this battery the best choice for use in the ProVari. The drawback of spinel is lower energy density. Typically, a cell made of a pure manganese cathode provides only about half the capacity of cobalt. The higher inherent safety of the spinel system permits the exclusion of the electric circuit in the battery. In the ProVape eCigs we incorporate the protection circuit into the eCig thus providing an added layer of safety. We know of NO safer combination then to use the manganese lithium ion battery with the ProVape eCig.

The AW IMR type cells that we carry use the manganese chemistry and are the safest of the lithium chemistry types.

The higher capacity cells use the cobalt chemistry with the electronic protection circuit.

The ultimate in safety is to have multiple redundant safety layers whereby if one layer of safety fails the other layer prevents an unsafe condition. This is what we strive for at ProVape, even if it means more internal components with its associated higher cost.

Asia produces many non-brand replacement batteries that are popular with users because of low price. Many of these batteries don't provide the same high safety standard as the main brand equivalent. A wise shopper spends a little more and buys a higher quality battery with its higher level of safety.

It is NOT recommended you use an unidentified lithium-ion battery from an Asian source.

As a consumer, you are in a position to select the highest quality and safest equipment. With each purchase, ask yourself,”Are a few pennies or dollars saved worth the safety risk?” Ultimately, your personal safety is in your hands with the equipment you buy.

Today, lithium-ion is one of the most successful and safe battery chemistries available. Two billion cells are produced every year. But be aware that there are several lithium ion battery chemistries being sold in the market. Some are safer than others.

Considering the number of lithium-ion batteries used on the market, this energy storage system has caused little harm in terms of damage and personal injury. In spite of the good record, its safety is a hot topic that gets high media attention whenever an incident occurs.
 

Preloader

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I read every word of that and could not pull out an answer to my question. What does a protected battery mean?

Are the AW IMRs from Provape protected? Are the protected EFest ones Cobalt? Are you suggesting the EFests fall into the category of cheap unknowns and therefore less safe? I'm not really interested in the added 250maH they claim, I just want to know if I can add them into my rotation of 18650's without adding risk to my ProVari, or even worse, my own safety.
 

Technonut

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I read every word of that and could not pull out an answer to my question. What does a protected battery mean?

Are the AW IMRs from Provape protected? Are the protected EFest ones Cobalt? Are you suggesting the EFests fall into the category of cheap unknowns and therefore less safe? I'm not really interested in the added 250maH they claim, I just want to know if I can add them into my rotation of 18650's without adding risk to my ProVari, or even worse, my own safety.

The AW IMR is a "safe-chemistry" battery (LiMN ). It will vent gas, and not flames or explode if it fails. The protected cells have an actual protection circuit built into the battery. These are Lithium-ion, (Li-ion) and could vent flames, or explode if the protection circuit / cell fails, instead of venting gas like the IMR.

The IMR batteries also provide more amperage in most cases with lower internal resistance than the protected Li-ion cells. The IMR is better suited for the ProVari, and other regulated VV / VW devices. So, you are better off only using IMR cells in your ProVari.. :)
 

Technonut

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Preloader: I'm pretty sure the Efest you have is an IMR battery.. IMR's are protected by the chemistry of the battery, and you could use them if you wanted... Is this what you have?


Efest IMR 18650 HD 2250mAh Battery - Button Top


EDIT: I think what you have is an "hybrid" IMR cell, which is a rebranded Panasonic CGR-18650CH. Again, it would be fine to use. :) Does it say "High-Drain" on it? Just make sure that the battery is not too long with the added button-top. (which I assume it has) You don't want the battery pressing very tightly against the board in the ProVari.
 
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Preloader

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Thanks for taking the time T-Nut, the added info makes the large quoted text make more sense.

IThe Efest is indeed IMR..... It does not say high drain, and you are correct in that they are approx. 2mm longer. I wouldn't even have thought to check that.

Maybe I'll charge them and leave them in my car for emergency situations, if I forget to bring spares.
 

Technonut

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Thanks for taking the time T-Nut, the added info makes the large quoted text make more sense.

IThe Efest is indeed IMR..... It does not say high drain, and you are correct in that they are approx. 2mm longer. I wouldn't even have thought to check that.

Maybe I'll charge them and leave them in my car for emergency situations, if I forget to bring spares.

NP... :) Sorry I didn't go into more detail at first... I've been busy today playing with Sophia. ;) :) I'm also reviewing a new, not on the market yet, El Toro e-liquid called "Perique, King Of Vapes".. It's made from Perique tobacco, and so far, quite tasty. (I vape primarily tobacco flavors) The maker gave out samples to quite a few of us over at the UKV forum in exchange for a review. I was surprised to receive a full 30ml bottle of it. :)
 

Baditude

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I read every word of that and could not pull out an answer to my question. What does a protected battery mean?

Are the AW IMRs from Provape protected? Are the protected EFest ones Cobalt? Are you suggesting the EFests fall into the category of cheap unknowns and therefore less safe? I'm not really interested in the added 250maH they claim, I just want to know if I can add them into my rotation of 18650's without adding risk to my ProVari, or even worse, my own safety.

Easiest thing about the Provari and batteries is that Provape tells you exactly what they want you to use. Red AW IMR batteries. They said their development team tested batteries prior to making the final designs of the Provari and decided AWs were the best, so designed the Provari to use those. They made button-top batteries part of the warranty agreement. Flat top batteries can be loaded upside down accidentally in a mod with reverse polarity being a bad ending result. So they designed the Provari to accept only button tops which makes loading a battery in backwards not work in the Provari. Adding a magnet to the top of a flat top battery to bypass the safety feature will void the warranty, because that is bad battery practice and dangerous.

You don't want to use a protected NCR/ICR battery in a Provari. The link that Thrasher supplied simplified down means an IMR battery is "high drain", you can pull more amps from an IMR than you can with a proteced NCR batter, at the expense of losing some battery capacity (mAh).

IMR's are also "safe chemistry" and also erroneously called "unprotected". The IMR chemistry is inherently safer, not volatile (flamable), so they do not require built-in protection. Unlike an NCR battery's chemistry, which IS volatile and becomes unstable faster when stressed, so much so that they require safety circuits in order to use them at all.

That doesn't keep companies to still make un-protected batteries for other applications not including mods. In fact, un-protected batteries should never be used in a mod. Many of the NCR batteries sold by FastTech are un-protected NCR or ICR batteries that should be avoided at all costs.

I made a blog on the different battery chemistries with the current recommendations for choosing an IMR vs protected LiIon battery. Batteries for Mods: IMR or Protected?
 
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