What do ya'll think about this whole Notcigs VV patent thing?

[dattmavis19]

This seems to have become a pretty controversial issue, so i figured, why not make a poll?

As you all may or may not know, Notcigs founder Mike has recently applied for a patent on VV systems. IF it goes through, all makers of VV mods(who market them) would either have to cease and desist, or pay a licensing fee to Mike. I also believe(but am not sure) that this would apply to the DIY VV kit madvapes sells, possibly making it no longer available. What do ya'll think about this?

Also, this being a dual poll(pick 1-4, and 5 OR 6), please only pick ONE of the first four options and ONE of the last two. Yes, you could technically pick them all, but it won't skew the results if that's what you're after, it'll just ...... it up to where we cant tell the actual results.


Personally, I don't think its right. I think he took Nuck's idea, subtracted a switch, and added a potentiometer. I think it's been on the market too long, and its wrong to put these other manufacturers out of business or charge them for a pre-existing design. I don't think it should be patentable anyways, just like FV(fixed-voltage) isn't. I think he should be able to patent his specific mods, and not only that, i think he needs to patent them, all mod-makers should patent their mods. I think its for monetary gain, not to "protect" us from big tobacco. That could be just as easily accomplished by not filing a patent, and letting it become public domain. I also don't think Big Tobacco is going to be interested in producing Mods and VV, i think they'll make some crappy BLU-type cigs that only use their components and liquids, and are not compatible with anything else. just my

 

[dattmavis19]

Once again:
Also, this being a dual poll(pick 1-4, and 5 OR 6), please only pick ONE of the first four options and ONE of the last two. Yes, you could technically pick them all, but it won't skew the results if that's what you're after, it'll just ...... it up to where we cant tell the actual results.

I guess itll work if everyone just picks one also, which is whats happening...

 

[Credo]

I'm not sure how it all works, so I can't answer the poll as it is worded.
While the question is a good one, the poll 'choices' are poorly worded and are full of leading or tainted ideas on how patents might work. We're seeing names of individuals and companies with no details on exactly what kind of application has been filed.

It looks more like a smear campaign against an individual than a poll to find out what people think about patent law.

We're asked to form some pretty intense opinions without ANY of the facts.

I.E. "This enrages me, I will never/no longer do business with notcigs"

Hmmm....can't pick that one without being biased and forming an opinion associated with a person and a company name. If I did pick this one, does it mean I should never do business with any persons or companies who hold utility patents? Oh heck...back to the stone age.

As I understand it, anyone can apply for patents, and there are many different types of patents. Just because you apply for one does not mean it will be granted.

There is no reason MadVapes would have to pay patents to sell a voltage regulator. I'm no lawyer, but Mike does not have a patent for the integrated voltage regulator circuit. Someone probably does hold that patent...and the fees to build and sell it have already been taken care of by the time MadVapes stocks it.

So....on utility patents vs design patents
If it can be proven that Mike invented the 'utilty' idea of a VV ecig, then yep...he should get the patent. That may not be an easy sell, but he'd be a fool not to apply for it if he has a chance in hades of proving it was his idea first. Now 'forcing' the current few folks making 'VV' mods to pay him without him doing something very good in exchange for that would be shooting himself in the foot right now...and if he doesn't know that yet, any patent law firm worth a dang is going to warn him about it.

It doesn't matter if his version of VV is based on the RV ideas of another. It's not the exact same idea. If Nuck wanted to apply for a patent on his regulated voltage idea for the e-cig...he could sure do that.

design patents...well, that just keeps your actual design from being copied. Who cares...easy to get and don't mean much unless some cloner is making your stuff without permission. And even if this is the case, it's not 'always' a bad thing! Particularly if you're hoping to create industry standards for 'future' capitol that 'might' give 'US based' companies a slight edge waaaaaaaaaay on down the road.

Why would a fixing fee for producing a VV drive anyone out of business?
There are dozens of ways to achieve the same result, using a different name and different networks. Plently of ways around it...or they can just pay the few pennies and use the patented stuff. So an e-cig cost two cents more. The benifit to signing on is the eventual building of a trademark for marketing and branding. As for the gadget itself...corps have been in the world long enough to get around all that if they so desire. So...unless modders give VV meaning and value...it won't be worth much anyway.

The patent isn't going to benifit ANYONE if no one in the USA bothers to mass produce VV e-cigs.

 

[Credo]

P.S. If NotCigs is stupid (and rich) enough to try to leverage the existing Mod industry against it's will over a single patent, well...he'll get his, and the big dawg corporate world will just sit back and watch the puppies pick each other to bits. By then...IF...they see any value in the puny VV patent...they'll just buy it from what's left of Mike's little store after the fight of the small modder pit bulls (maybe he could use that buy off money to pay his law and lobbiest firm bills intended to stop other current players from doing what ever they wanna do anyway).

At this early of a stage in the game...there aren't many US folks into e-cigs who are big enough to really threaten each other, NONE of them are producing at levels to keep up with demand just yet...at least not when it comes to these high end mods. It'd be better to get along if these ideas are to hold any true patent power at all.

Relax...notcigs are the least of the small e-cig propieter's fears. In fact...ya might wanna get on board with him and start building some things as a comglomerate of e-cig enthusiats, and congratulating and supporting the ones lucky enough to be awarded patents and such. If not, when the big dawgs do decide to hone in...ya'll will have done most of the nasty work for them through polls and tactics like this one. Mike's patent won't be worth squat anyway (if he gets it). The big dawgs will just bury it and do it some other way (without the precious VV feature) when the time comes.

To be a big dawg someday....don't waste time ripping down other mom and pops. They're no threat to you. It's like punching out your brother over a cup of flour, when you could work together, bring in a pal with some water/milk, somebody with some yeast, another with an oven, and maybe end up with several whole loaves of bread to split up. It's probably better to build markets together, spread out the stakes a little among many moms and pops, so it's harder for one or two big powers out there to simply out-market and wipe ya off the board through production, pricing, and marketing power.

Work it out....get a stake in it and support ALL the moms and pops while they're still standing. Trust me...it'll take many more patents from lots of little companies to stand up to the kind of axes the e-cig industry might face in the near future.

Ya ain't seen nothin' yet...
Mike and his 'possible' patent can be wiped away pretty easily by the rest of the fledgling US modders....but stop to think...is that really to the advantage of USA based players?

 

[Dino73]

Wheres the option for: I'd like to see him try, and lose money doing so.
Meanwhile, I'm going to go patent the on/off switch.

This is laughable. Never happen, or wont the way you described it.

 

[Credo]

Wheres the option for: I'd like to see him try, and lose money doing so.
Meanwhile, I'm going to go patent the on/off switch.

This is laughable. Never happen, or wont the way you described it.

Yer probably right......it's not gonna mean much and all the modders will be defunct when the Chinese decide they want the market anyway. Without patents to protect some of the kinds of markets modders are trying to build....well...look for the E-Power II, III, VI, etc... and they're gonna get cheaper and cheaper and better and better.

The on/off switch most likely does have a utility patent, and almost certianly a design patent.

If the on/off switch on an e-cig is not already patented by current modders...bet your boots the corps will when/if they decide it's time to build these kinds of things US side. Heck, they might already have done so.

 

[dattmavis19]

Wasn't really a question about patents in general, just about this notcigs patent in question. You raise many valid points though. However, i didn't think my poll was biased or attacking, it basically offered: Yes he should be able to have the patent, no he should only be able to patent his mods, I don't care, and noone should be able to patent e-cig products.

The last two options, will continue to buy/will never buy, were meant to be chosen between separately. this only served to poll another question on the same topic without creating a separate poll. I realize that's confusing for some, as many will not read the post explaining it, and in hindsight i should have just made 2 polls.

And there was a pretty lengthy thread about this, with some pretty immature responses from all towards the end, including mike, but as far as the first paragraph in my first post goes, that is his intent, stated by him. I have further confirmed this with PMs between he and I. it is also a utility patent, that was stated early on in his thread. IMHO, he comes off as a rich a******, from what i've seen of his posts and PMs. (sorry but i'm middle class at best, the ignorance and attitudes of some wealthy folks rub me the wrong way)

Kinda reminds me of this guy a few weeks ago, spend 3 nights, 10pm-8am painting his restaurant, on the last night i end up needing a ride, to which he responds (not that i even asked) "i would, but its not really my problem, yano?". Long story short, it starts raining and he offers to take me down the road a few mi. to meet my ride, "put your paint gear behind the dumpster, i don't want it in my Lexus" Yea, i want to leave my $25 brush and $100 in gear behind your dumpster in a town 40 mi from my house because you don't want it in your damn $60k car. like you cant afford to have it cleaned, or clean it your damn self. Not that my obviously clean 5-gal bucket is going to dirty anything up. Rich .......

Completely irrelevant story. Doesn't directly relate to anything he's said or done. But somehow i imagine he would be quite similar in persona if we were to meet. I guess it's the attitude that bothers me most. Hes already wealthy (has successful fiber optics business on top of notcigs), and he just wants more. I guess it comes off as ungrateful to me in a way, whereas i'd be overly elated if only my family didn't have to worry about credit card bills, mortgage, monthly bills, other expenses, and how we're going to mange to pay them all without losing the house, going hungry, or living in the dark.

 

[hairball]

The only 2 vendors that I will buy a VV mod from is notcigs (already own 4 Buzz's) and ProVape's ProVari (own 2). ProVari was patented BEFORE it hit the market. Notcigs is only protecting what is rightfully theirs.

 

[dattmavis19]

Wheres the option for: I'd like to see him try, and lose money doing so.
Meanwhile, I'm going to go patent the on/off switch.

This is laughable. Never happen, or wont the way you described it.

I would certainly hope not. But this is the way HE thinks its going to happen. He thinks he will be awarded this patent no problem, and then anyone using or wanting to use VV will have 3 options: Pay a licensing fee to him, quit producing the product, or be sued.

Personally, i hope he goes bankrupt either trying to get the frivolous patent, or trying to defend it in courts if he does get it. And i told him that.

It would be like me trying to patent Fixed Voltage. In fact, imma go do that now, everyone producing a 3.7v mod will have to pay me royalties or be shut down.

IMHO, hes in it for 1 of 3 reasons: He cant make a successful enough VV mod himself, so he wants to profit off others success in VV; His mod is plenty successful, he just wants more money off everyone else anyways; He wants to sell the patent to Big Tobacco or Big someone for a good bit of money.(but o no, he swears hes protecting us from them)

Any way you look at it, monetary motivation.

I want to get into making and selling mods and juices, do i want to make some money? yea, it would be nice. Do i care how much money? as long as i at least break even, not really. Why do i want to do it? for fun, i enjoy it.

My point there isnt that noone should be in it for money, but that the people who are in it for reasons like me, should be able to use basic tech ideas like VV in their mods without paying another company to do so.

Say i was in it for money, and i make a basic VV mod, i sell 5 units a month starting off, and make $20 off each one. I have to start paying him $10 per unit. That leaves me 2 options, cut my already minimal profit in half, or raise my price by $10, risking losing some or all of my already minimal sales. It'd put me in a pretty tough spot, would it not?

 

[Credo]

Fair enough...I havne't seen the thread so I'll go look for it. If I am understanding you correctly, he should get a good patent law attorney before making statements about forcing current modders to liscence his VV stuff, and he'd better already have the patent in his pocket.

If it offers no advantage to liscence...people will just find another way and give him the bird. LOL

 

[hairball]

Credo...notcigs is using a patent lawyer for his vv mods.

The Buzz was the original (first) variable volt mod available. It won't be a problem for Buzzkill to get his patent passed.

 

[dattmavis19]

And yes, i AM strongly opinionated about this. It's my opinion, and i can state it if i so choose long as it isn't derogatory.
Not trying to tell anyone how to think, just letting them know what I think. Some will agree, some will not.

I implore everyone who voted in the poll to post what they think, be it in line with what i've said or the exact opposite.

As long as it stays at least semi mature, and doesn't fall into name calling and flaming like the other thread on this topic

Edit: none of that was directed at anyone, i was just throwing it out there. First part's kinda already obvious i spose, last part should be just as a general rule for any thread on a topic like this, or any thread for that matter

 

[Credo]

I want to get into making and selling mods and juices, do i want to make some money? yea, it would be nice. Do i care how much money? as long as i at least break even, not really. Why do i want to do it? for fun, i enjoy it.

My point there isnt that noone should be in it for money, but that the people who are in it for reasons like me, should be able to use basic tech ideas like VV in their mods without paying another company to do so.

Say i was in it for money, and i make a basic VV mod, i sell 5 units a month starting off, and make $20 off each one. I have to start paying him $10 per unit. That leaves me 2 options, cut my already minimal profit in half, or raise my price by $10, risking losing some or all of my already minimal sales. It'd put me in a pretty tough spot, would it not?

There are fair use clauses and limits to patents and whatnot, and there would be ways you can get around it.
1. Call it something else.
2. Use a different system to achieve the goal.
3. Just make it without a part or two and people can put it in themsleves.
etc....

Plus, I think you'd have to be on a much different level as a business before he would come after you. Don't quote me on this, but I'm thinking it would cost him a heck of a lot more coming after you than he could ever make. At the most, you might get warned to stop making the units that use his patents and 'marketing' them places like the internet.

Making 10 mods a week in your garage with parts from Radio Shack for break-even amounts of cash ain't the same thing as making 4,000 a month in a company with a dozen employees, taxes, etc.

$10 per unit royalty would be crazy....if he's asking that much....good luck to him.

...

Surely he knows that being a bully like that this early would just kill his chances of making 'VV' a household name. It has to offer something truly special (like brand or TM appeal) before anyone is going to bother to liscence it. He's got building to do before asking for a bunch of money...and I'd imagine he knows it.

I can see where his claim of doing this to protect modders' interests may be very genuine.

 

[dattmavis19]

Idk, i guess i see it as a principle thing, its not that i don't think he should be able to patent VV, its that i think noone should. Just as noone should be able to(or is able to) patent FV. Its just two broad of an art. It would be like patenting box mods, or tube mods. That's half the mods out there. If nobody had VV, and he just came out with it, patent pending, that would be fine. But no, he waited a year almost, until it took off and many successful companies used and even improved on the idea. Which in the first place, was an idea he used and improved on(switchable VV to potentiometer VV)

It isnt original, theres this thing i remember hearing, that makes it to where you can't get the patent, obvious progression, something to that extent.

VV was an obvious next step from FV and changing batts to adjust voltage.

A potentiometer was an obvious next step from a dip switch design.

Does noone agree with this?

 

[wazzup592]

Not if I patent it first

 

[Credo]

And yes, i AM strongly opinionated about this. It's my opinion, and i can state it if i so choose long as it isn't derogatory.
Not trying to tell anyone how to think, just letting them know what I think. Some will agree, some will not.

I implore everyone who voted in the poll to post what they think, be it in line with what i've said or the exact opposite.

As long as it stays at least semi mature, and doesn't fall into name calling and flaming like the other thread on this topic

Edit: none of that was directed at anyone, i was just throwing it out there. First part's kinda already obvious i spose, last part should be just as a general rule for any thread on a topic like this, or any thread for that matter

Fair enough...
Uncivil debate is certianly opposite of what I'd like to see.
It'll be interesting to follow...

 

[Credo]

Idk, i guess i see it as a principle thing, its not that i don't think he should be able to patent VV, its that i think noone should. Just as noone should be able to(or is able to) patent FV. Its just two broad of an art. It would be like patenting box mods, or tube mods. That's half the mods out there. If nobody had VV, and he just came out with it, patent pending, that would be fine. But no, he waited a year almost, until it took off and many successful companies used and even improved on the idea. Which in the first place, was an idea he used and improved on(switchable VV to potentiometer VV)

It isnt original, theres this thing i remember hearing, that makes it to where you can't get the patent, obvious progression, something to that extent.

VV was an obvious next step from FV and changing batts to adjust voltage.

A potentiometer was an obvious next step from a dip switch design.

Does noone agree with this?

Well, yes and no.

By this logic, we could say transistors do the same thing as tubes, and it wouldn't be fair patent anything based on either...and on and on. Early Radio is based on a couple of coils and crystals that had been around for a long time...so had the waves...people even knew they existed and had toyed around with using it for some things.....but....radio as it was eventually patented was NOT the same very simple idea of a crystal and some coils. The definition grew broader by the time patents were awarded.

Obvious to whom? It's not always so obvious what the next step is. Also, there can be 'many different' next steps to 'choose from', each having different pros and cons. What's next.....VHS or Beta....33Rpm or 45Rpm?

It gets long winded and complex to attempt to get a grip on patent law to me. It doesn't always go down in a way that seems 'fair' or 'just'. Heck...Tesla didn't get a patent for Radio till long after he was dead....AFTER a war in which his stuff was built by Italians (Marconi)...and used like crazy without a patent in the US....and AFTER they gave a Nobel prize to someone else....etc....Tesla finally got the patent.

So yeah...it does suck sometimes...but that's how it is. Ain't no utopia, but it's better than nothing (we've tried the nothing before as well...and it was far from pretty).

Light bulbs are patented. You can make them yourself all day long and not have to pay any royalties. It's when you start mass producing and selling them that it matters.

 

[Credo]

Credo...notcigs is using a patent lawyer for his vv mods.

The Buzz was the original (first) variable volt mod available. It won't be a problem for Buzzkill to get his patent passed.

Thanks for the info. I'm gonna back off on this thread and just read for a while.
I don't know Mike and his intentions, but it sounds to me like he's within his rights to file for patents, and if he works it right it most certianly can and will benifit the current slate of modders. He does have to manage it with smarts if he gets such a patent....being a bully just because he can might seriously backfire.

"Utility Patents" with the kind of broad reaching scope inferred by this poll, are almost always a problem to get through. They don't give those out like candy......I've read of some that take multiple generations to finally get sorted out.

 

[Lightgeoduck]

There is no benefit in rehashing this out. There has already been enough discussion on this topic and it tends to go down the route of disrupting the forum. It is what it is, and people have their views on it(one side or the other) that I am sure won't change.


With that being said I am putting this poll to rest



LGD