What is the Best Way to Store E-Liquids?

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Kurt

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Great info, Kurt..your professional experience as a chemist is very helpful !:)

Thanks for the kind words, Misty and madpimp! Nice to be able to apply my chemistry knowledge to something so effective and just plain great! This all just applied chemical/electrical engineering!

BTW, as I said earlier, I am learning new stuff here all the time. Just read TropicalBob's (I think) post on the antimicrobial effects of PG and VG. Can't find it now. Turns out most bacteria are killed by PG, and to a somewhat lesser degree VG. So while I am still going to be very clean when storing and using my e-liquid to make mixes, it looks like PG and VG pretty much take care of themselves. With this stuff, however, and the uncertainty of vaping's future, I am all about piece of mind and discipline in handling. Good habits, at the very least, will lead to less sticky mess...oh those little drops that you don't see, then get on your hands. :p

Have a vaporous weekend!
Kurt
 

Kurt

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Kurt,
Thank You For Sharing Your Wealth Of Knowledge & Opinion ...
Could You Please Give Us Your Thoughts On Comparsion Of ...
UnFlav-HiNic Juice Stored At Room Temp ~75 Degrees F, Dark, Dry ...
Versus Frig At ~42 Degrees F ...

My Concern, Sun's Experience With Juice Stored In Fridge Going Bad ...

Thanks
Dave

I could use some more detail as to the definition of "bad". PG or VG both tend to kill bugs. Fruit essences may be too much vegetable in content. Did they just separate, as I would actually expect? Did mold grow in them, or other nasties? I am new to this, but the chemistry of the components in clean unflav high nic liquid should not go bad in either environment, as long as water has not been introduced. Perhaps a basement is better for the unopened reserves...seems it should be fine.

This production of high nic unflavored juice is perhaps too new for anyone to really know the optimum storage environment. Perhaps someone at Lorann or a confection company could speak to the shelf life of glycerin solutions. I doubt they would know a lot about PG. If the bottle of e-juice is unopened, still sealed, which is what I am referring to (not bottles in use), what could possibly happen to make the liquid go "bad?

Sun: could you please elaborate on exactly happened to the juices? Changed color? Separated? Started to stink? Just puzzled.

Thanks!
Kurt
 

Sun Vaporer

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I could use some more detail as to the definition of "bad". PG or VG both tend to kill bugs. Fruit essences may be too much vegetable in content. Did they just separate, as I would actually expect? Did mold grow in them, or other nasties? I am new to this, but the chemistry of the components in clean unflav high nic liquid should not go bad in either environment, as long as water has not been introduced. Perhaps a basement is better for the unopened reserves...seems it should be fine.

This production of high nic unflavored juice is perhaps too new for anyone to really know the optimum storage environment. Perhaps someone at Lorann or a confection company could speak to the shelf life of glycerin solutions. I doubt they would know a lot about PG. If the bottle of e-juice is unopened, still sealed, which is what I am referring to (not bottles in use), what could possibly happen to make the liquid go "bad?

Sun: could you please elaborate on exactly happened to the juices? Changed color? Separated? Started to stink? Just puzzled.

Thanks!
Kurt


Ok Kurt ---You asked so here is what happened.

(1) In the pendency of a possible Ban I purchased Numerous bottles of e-liquid from four different vendors;

(2) All bottles were 30ml, some were plastic and some were glass;

(3) The bottles were stored in a tupperware contaner in a 1 year old stainless steel side by side in the bottom shelf.;

(4) The tempature of the fridge was 40 degrees;

(5) After 3-4 months passed, there was a report on the Forum about Johnson Creek e-liquid turning green;

(6) After seeing this, I went to the fridge to check the bottles as 5 of them were in fact Johnson Creek;

(7) That although none of the bottles where green in color, I opened one to make sure it was still good;

(8) That the e-liquid had a vinegar smell to it and upon trying to vape it, it tasted like rancid vinegar;

(9) That I subsequently opened up all of the bottles from all of the Suppliers and they all had the same rancid vial vinegar smell and taste;

(10) That the taste was so vial, all the e-liquid had to be disposed.

There was no Flavorless back then as it was not offered for sale. The flavors ranged from 555, Riskee, Menthol, Camel, Vanilla Ice Cream, Tenessee Cured, Strawberry.


Now I have other e-liquid that has been sitting around here opened that I really did not like the taste, that is still as good as the day I bought it---all never having scene the inside of a fridge. I will never place e-liquid in a 40 degree fridge do to my experience that you asked about.

Every MSDS I have ever read states cool, dark, and DRY. The fridge was Cold and not all that dry from normal condensation.


Hope that gives you all the info you need Kurt.

Thanks,


Sun
 

Kurt

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Thank you, Sun! Your information tells me a lot! I do not understand the temperature dependence yet, but I think I have an idea of what has happened, and indeed something I have been concerned about.

I'm going to get chemical technical here, because I suspect there are some that can follow this logic.

Flavors are are generally esters, especially fruit flavors, as well as ketones and aldehydes. I would imagine (don't really know, but imagine) that tobacco flavors are also esters, etc. There was likely water present in the juice. Vinegar is the product of acetate ester hydrolysis (reaction with H2O). MANY flavors are acetate esters, with varying ether groups. Banana: isopentyl acetate. Orange: octyl acetate. The other product of hydroysis of the same ester is an alcohol (alcohol is a generic organic chem name for carbon groups with an OH...VG is a trialcohol, or triol). Any alcohol larger than propanol (rubbing alcohol) STINKS!!

banana oil + H2O ----> isopentyl alcohol + acetic acid (vinegar)

Isopentyl alcohol stinks like...hmmm...someone who has not washed in a long time. It has a FUNK! :p

Not saying you had banana, as you clearly didn't, but you obviously had an environment where water and pH (nicotine is basic) were hydrolyzing esters. Acetic acid is vinegar, but other esters may be decompose to butyric acid, propionic acid, etc (not all esters are acetate esters). Butyric acid smells like vomit. A tiny amount of butyric acid will smell like parm cheese (butyr name means butter...greek or latin, i forget).

I do not know about the tobacco flavors but they are likely to be a complex mix of various flavor compounds.

Now to why this happened in the cold and not room temp. I honestly don't know, but if a reaction is exothermic, it will be react more in cold. And it is very true that cold liquid, especially di- and triols (PG, VG) WILL absorb water when cold.

So it seems water, not cold, is if not THE enemy, AN enemy, more so than microbes, as was discussed earlier. And if the pH of the solution is right, ester hydrolysis will occur, and since esters hydrolyze to alcohols and acids easier than acids and alcohols form esters, cold will enhance this hydrolysis to stink compounds.

So it seems, at least, that flavors can indeed hydrolyze in the cold/wet environment of a fridge. Even unopened ones, although my guess is this depends on the source's recipe.

While this does not say anything about unflavored high nic juice, unopened, it does say a lot about flavored juices. Evidently even unopened ones have enough water in them to have this occur, especially if the pH is right.

On a side note, I ordered some unflavored juice from Vermont Vapor, mainly because the use only glycerin, nicotine (99% pharm pure) and a little citric acid to balance pH. I wonder how flavor mixes with that juice will store?

So given this valuable detailed info from Sun, it is clear that the fridge is, at least certainly for flavored liquids, not recommended for long term storage. And given that available commercial info say cool, dark, dry, I am going to store all my reserves as such.

Long term storage of unopened reserves will be, at least with today's info ;), unopened bottles in a box in the basement, maybe even with drying packs like are in some vitamin jars. A desiccator!

In fact, if you are using a tackle box for supplies/juices/etc, like I am, I think a few of those drying packs would be good in there as well.

I'm sure disiccants are available in hobby shops...look for the flower-drying supplies. Silicon oxide is the usual stuff, although even salt will absorb water! In my world of chemistry, CaCl2 or MgSO4 are both good for this. CoCl2 is also another really good one, since it is colored blue when dry, but turns pink upon hydration, so you know it is done drying the environment...put it in an oven with heat for a bit and it goes back to blue. I don't know if it is available to the general population.

Sun, I believe we have made great progress on this vital issue! There are still many variable I need to understand, but dark, dry, and arid seems the total way to go for all liquids at this point.

For me, given the possible/likely banning, vaping is much more pleasurable if I know my liquids are going to be stable for a LONG time!

I understand this may have been too technical for some here, but the answers are only going to come from hard-core chemistry.

Thanks so much for your info, Sun! Rock on, my friend!

Kurt
 

Sun Vaporer

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Thank you, Sun! Your information tells me a lot! I do not understand the temperature dependence yet, but I think I have an idea of what has happened, and indeed something I have been concerned about.

I'm going to get chemical technical here, because I suspect there are some that can follow this logic.

Flavors are are generally esters, especially fruit flavors, as well as ketones and aldehydes. I would imagine (don't really know, but imagine) that tobacco flavors are also esters, etc. There was likely water present in the juice. Vinegar is the product of acetate ester hydrolysis (reaction with H2O). MANY flavors are acetate esters, with varying ether groups. Banana: isopentyl acetate. Orange: octyl acetate. The other product of hydroysis of the same ester is an alcohol (alcohol is a generic organic chem name for carbon groups with an OH...VG is a trialcohol, or triol). Any alcohol larger than propanol (rubbing alcohol) STINKS!!

banana oil + H2O ----> isopentyl alcohol + acetic acid (vinegar)

Isopentyl alcohol stinks like...hmmm...someone who has not washed in a long time. It has a FUNK! :p

Not saying you had banana, as you clearly didn't, but you obviously had an environment where water and pH (nicotine is basic) were hydrolyzing esters. Acetic acid is vinegar, but other esters may be decompose to butyric acid, propionic acid, etc (not all esters are acetate esters). Butyric acid smells like vomit. A tiny amount of butyric acid will smell like parm cheese (butyr name means butter...greek or latin, i forget).

I do not know about the tobacco flavors but they are likely to be a complex mix of various flavor compounds.

Now to why this happened in the cold and not room temp. I honestly don't know, but if a reaction is exothermic, it will be react more in cold. And it is very true that cold liquid, especially di- and triols (PG, VG) WILL absorb water when cold.

So it seems water, not cold, is if not THE enemy, AN enemy, more so than microbes, as was discussed earlier. And if the pH of the solution is right, ester hydrolysis will occur, and since esters hydrolyze to alcohols and acids easier than acids and alcohols form esters, cold will enhance this hydrolysis to stink compounds.

So it seems, at least, that flavors can indeed hydrolyze in the cold/wet environment of a fridge. Even unopened ones, although my guess is this depends on the source's recipe.

While this does not say anything about unflavored high nic juice, unopened, it does say a lot about flavored juices. Evidently even unopened ones have enough water in them to have this occur, especially if the pH is right.

On a side note, I ordered some unflavored juice from Vermont Vapor, mainly because the use only glycerin, nicotine (99% pharm pure) and a little citric acid to balance pH. I wonder how flavor mixes with that juice will store?

So given this valuable detailed info from Sun, it is clear that the fridge is, at least certainly for flavored liquids, not recommended for long term storage. And given that available commercial info say cool, dark, dry, I am going to store all my reserves as such.

Long term storage of unopened reserves will be, at least with today's info ;), unopened bottles in a box in the basement, maybe even with drying packs like are in some vitamin jars. A desiccator!

In fact, if you are using a tackle box for supplies/juices/etc, like I am, I think a few of those drying packs would be good in there as well.

I'm sure disiccants are available in hobby shops...look for the flower-drying supplies. Silicon oxide is the usual stuff, although even salt will absorb water! In my world of chemistry, CaCl2 or MgSO4 are both good for this. CoCl2 is also another really good one, since it is colored blue when dry, but turns pink upon hydration, so you know it is done drying the environment...put it in an oven with heat for a bit and it goes back to blue. I don't know if it is available to the general population.

Sun, I believe we have made great progress on this vital issue! There are still many variable I need to understand, but dark, dry, and arid seems the total way to go for all liquids at this point.

For me, given the possible/likely banning, vaping is much more pleasurable if I know my liquids are going to be stable for a LONG time!

I understand this may have been too technical for some here, but the answers are only going to come from hard-core chemistry.

Thanks so much for your info, Sun! Rock on, my friend!

Kurt


Kurt--Thanks for clearing this issue up for me. It makes total sense with the moisture in a fridge being the problem.

Appreciated,


Sun
 

DC2

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In fact, if you are using a tackle box for supplies/juices/etc, like I am, I think a few of those drying packs would be good in there as well.

I'm sure disiccants are available in hobby shops...look for the flower-drying supplies. Silicon oxide is the usual stuff, although even salt will absorb water! In my world of chemistry, CaCl2 or MgSO4 are both good for this. CoCl2 is also another really good one, since it is colored blue when dry, but turns pink upon hydration, so you know it is done drying the environment...put it in an oven with heat for a bit and it goes back to blue. I don't know if it is available to the general population.
I'm glad I didn't follow through on my threats to put my stash in the fridge!
:D

So, any thoughts on this stuff as a drying agent?
A Good Company - Safe Alternative to Cobalt Chloride
 

KevinD872

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So frustrating! Now, I got some flavored juices (vanilla, cherry, banana & menthol) almost two months ago that we keep in the fridge and they are all still fine. Should I take them out and put them in a container in the basement?

I also just got some PG, VG and 48mg plain.... enough for about 2 years. I have had it about 2 weeks and I have it in a fridge in the basement. Should I take it out?

Ugh.........
 

Kurt

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I'm glad I didn't follow through on my threats to put my stash in the fridge!
:D

So, any thoughts on this stuff as a drying agent?
A Good Company - Safe Alternative to Cobalt Chloride

Deadcat,

Thanks for finding this!! Looks compelling! I wonder what the "inorganic compound" used as the indicator is? Technically CoCl2 is also inorganic, as is anything that contains a metal, in general, but there are lots of safer indicators, and besides you are not going to be vaping desiccant! :shock:
It would be nice, however, in the spirit of this vapor technology, to have something that is not harmful to soak up water.

Kurt
 

happily

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So frustrating! Now, I got some flavored juices (vanilla, cherry, banana & menthol) almost two months ago that we keep in the fridge and they are all still fine. Should I take them out and put them in a container in the basement?

I also just got some PG, VG and 48mg plain.... enough for about 2 years. I have had it about 2 weeks and I have it in a fridge in the basement. Should I take it out?

Ugh.........
propylene glycol and nicotine are not stored in the fridge and both have no shelf life..................so why put it in the fridge

keep it not hot, not sunny, not humid and remove as much air as possible

98% of juice is pg. and my pg sits in the kitchen window
 

bearscreek

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This is another desiccant, just as an example. I've thought several times about putting something like this in my tackle box, but I wasn't 100% sure about the safety. I actually have a couple of very small packets around that I've saved and probably would have ended up throwing in there until I could get something else. My house tends to stay humid (to me) for some reason. Of course, living in the south is part of it.
 

KevinD872

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propylene glycol and nicotine are not stored in the fridge and both have no shelf life..................so why put it in the fridge

keep it not hot, not sunny, not humid and remove as much air as possible

98% of juice is pg. and my pg sits in the kitchen window



I've read elsewhere on this forum where people are recommending not to stock up past 2 years worth of stuff because nic juice "has a shelf life of 2 years". :confused:

I wasn't sure if the stuff needed to go in the fridge, but figured it's usually a good thing for most things so it couldn't hurt. But apparently that isn't the case with this. 8-o
 
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1inchgroup

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So I am guessing that the best way to store our stash would be in an item similar to this?

Vacuum Container


Add a few of the dessicant packs, and stick it in a downstairs cupboard.

Done a few searches trying to find one that is solid black instead of clear, but this'll do, and it's only 40 bucks. Little research on your own might find a cheaper/more appropriate container.

Stuff the bottles in, snap shut the lid and vacuum the air out with the manual pump in the lid. Sounds pretty foolproof.
 

Stehle

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Thank you for so eloquent an answer Kurt! Thanks also to Sun for such detailed info & a lightning fast response! :)

My test is over after a little over 2 months the 30ml bottles of 36mg "Hilton" that I used in all of the tests still have a "snap" and will be vaped in the near future. :)

All 4 refrigerators have been unplugged. ;) End cost in electricity for this test... well lets just say I may get an extra 250ml unflavored from Vermont! ;)

Fall is almost upon us... Lock Box in a cool dry place for me. :)

Keep on vapin! :)
 

djabsynth

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for long term storage of eliquid I would have to go with a small wine cellar. constant temperature/humidity and thermoelectric based (no compressor kicking on and off creating vibrations)

As for temperature to set it to - 11C/52F. that's the temp that kept the 1825 Perrier-Jouet still drinkable!

BBC NEWS | UK | World's oldest champagne opened
 
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