What's a LiPo?

[bwh79]

Time and time again, I've seen people post something to the effect of "never use a mod with a built-in LiPo battery, they are much more dangerous than the Li-ion batteries that are used in mods with replaceable batteries." And it's left me wondering, does anybody actually know what a "LiPo" really is?

From my research, there are two kinds of batteries referred to as "LiPo". Initially, they referred to a different chemistry, one that used a solid polymer electrolyte instead of the standard liquid lithium-salt electrolyte. These original "lithium polymer" batteries are more dangerous than the standard replaceable batteries we use, but fortunately, they are still a topic of research, and have not yet reached full commercialization; these are not the kind of batteries that are used in "LiPo" devices.

More recently, "LiPo" refers usually to a standard-chemistry lithium-ion battery, but instead of a rigid metal can or box, the "guts" of the battery are contained within a flexible polymer pouch. These are the kind of batteries that are used in our "LiPo" devices (cell phones, laptops, e-cigarette mods, etc.) and, aside from the obvious physical fragility, they are not any more dangerous than the replaceable batteries we use every day.

So, next time you tell someone they shouldn't use a built-in battery mod because LiPo's are "more dangerous" than 18650's, ask yourself this. Do you really know what you are talking about, or are you just full of beans?

 

[Falco78]

I'm full of beans but I really need the extra protein

sent from my Galaxy Note 4 using MOAR 2.1b ROM running tapatalk

 

[Eskie]

LiPo packs in a flexible pouch. Starts at about 2:00

 

[bwh79]

LiPo packs in a flexible pouch. Starts at about 2:00

And? The battery short-circuited and caused a violent explosion when he pressed a conductive metal nut through the outer casing. What did you think was gonna happen? You think an 18650 would have fared any better? Hell, being completely surrounded by a conductive metal canister already, I bet you wouldn't even need the nut! Note: the cylindrical batteries in that clip were standard alkaline batteries that you can buy in any grocery store. Those were not lithium rechargeables, so it's not a fair comparison to pit those against the LiPo packs you see at the end.

 

[Eskie]

And it's easier to puncture or deform a "Lipo" soft pack than a rigid 18650.

Yes, they are both Li ion in design, but just as there is varying chemistry for 18650s (or used to be with ICR replaced with IMR chemistry in the batteries we now lean to) there is varying chemistry employed in the more flexible packs as well. Truthfully, unless you're really knowledgeable or really into digging up all the specs on Lipo packs (referring to them by their generally used name) it's hard to know which employs the "safest" chemistry and the reliability of the original manufacturer. The RC folks are very good about that stuff as that's what they routinely rely on.

As to the safety of a non-replaceable Lipo in a mod vs. a replaceable 18650, I prefer replaceable as eventually those built in Lipos will no longer hold a charge, just like the 18650. I do not regard one as any safer than the other, and use both types of mods, including those with options to install either type. But as to susceptibility to sustain damage, a flexible pack is a bit easier to mess up with than a rigid tube.

 

[bwh79]

But as to susceptibility to sustain damage, a flexible pack is a bit easier to mess up with than a rigid tube.

In response to that, I'll just direct you to my comment from the first post:

aside from the obvious physical fragility, they are not any more dangerous than the replaceable batteries we use every day.

I prefer replaceable as eventually those built in Lipos will no longer hold a charge, just like the 18650.

I'll agree there are valid reasons to prefer a replaceable battery over a built-in one, I'm just saying that "LiPo's are inherently more dangerous" is not one of them.

...now, it's entirely possible that I'm the one who's full of beans. If you think that's the case, educate me! Look it up, prove me wrong. I love being proved wrong, it means I get to learn something new! However, this is how I understand things, based on what I have found so far, and I've never had anyone present a solid refutation of these claims. If you have one, let's hear it.

 

[Eskie]

Nah, I'll go along with the primary issue being fragility. But that is a pretty big issue. I'm a believer in battery safety and do all the things/steps we've learned to stay safe. Always rewrap a torn wrap. Always store in a plastic box or silicone sleeve when not in a mod. Charge in an external charger unless the board is known to have been developed with charging in mind and is capable of balanced charging (like a DNA board). I'm careful to not get my mod wet. All the stuff we read and post about.

However, I'm not overjoyed tossing a flexible Lipo into the drawer or certainly a pocket. I guess you can get hard cases for them just like 18650s for protection, but I don't have enough experience or knowledge to feel confident I'm doing everything I can to assure the safety of a "loose" pack. Still, at least with a Lipo you don't have to worry about stuff like reverse polarity protection. Those fit only one way plugs are a nice feature.

 

[r77r7r]

Good thread, guys

 

[kbeam418]

IMO not using a mod with a lipo is like not using a cell phone because they use lipo. Is lipo more dangerous? Yes! Will your' mod blow up? Not likely, especially if you're using an Evolv board that's constantly monitoring the pack. As far as them being fragile, that's not entirely true because the rc hobby beats the piss out of there packs and they rarely have issues.

 

[r77r7r]

Seems yeah, lipos might be designed better for our applications. Just have to get mod makers on board. Was one or two back awhile... Tried to pair them with Evolve boards I think, before Evolve got their act together.

 

[kbeam418]

Seems yeah, lipos might be designed better for our applications. Just have to get mod makers on board. Was one or two back awhile... Tried to pair them with Evolve boards I think, before Evolve got their act together.

I don't like them simply because capacity of lipo is too low. My dna 200 can't last a whole day at around 15 watts. My reuleaux will last me practically all week.

 

[Eskie]

I don't like them simply because capacity of lipo is too low. My dna 200 can't last a whole day at around 15 watts. My reuleaux will last me practically all week.

Probably depends on the Lipo and its age. I have 2 DNA 200s from LV, an Efusion Duo which I have the Lipo pack, and a Triade with 3 batteries. Same settings in TC 40W 450F preheat 75W and I get at least two days out of the Efusion and three from the Triade vaping about 5-7 ml a day. Unless you're vaping 20 ml a day, if your DNA 200 with Lipo isn't lasting a full day at 15W, you need a new lipo pack.

 

[Cheallaigh]

I don't like them simply because capacity of lipo is too low. My dna 200 can't last a whole day at around 15 watts. My reuleaux will last me practically all week.

i wish i could get more than a few hours and i don't vape all that high of a wattage with only being around 22.5 to 25w with my single battery mods( .2 to .5 ohms, single and dual coils). with my dual battery squonker i'm usually 45 to 60w, but dual or quad build, i wont even get 2 hours... but part of that is the way i vape. i'm still dreaming for the 50-75a 10,000 mah 18650's...

i don't like lipos for the simple reason of a mod becoming a paperweight when the battery gets low and so having to carry a spare mod always, or if the battery dies outright. at least with the 18650's i can carry a few spares to change out when needed. the idea of one being more dangerous than the other was never a thought to me, all batteries can be dangerous if abused in some way or not stored properly.

 

[kbeam418]

Probably depends on the Lipo and its age. I have 2 DNA 200s from LV, an Efusion Duo which I have the Lipo pack, and a Triade with 3 batteries. Same settings in TC 40W 450F preheat 75W and I get at least two days out of the Efusion and three from the Triade vaping about 5-7 ml a day. Unless you're vaping 20 ml a day, if your DNA 200 with Lipo isn't lasting a full day at 15W, you need a new lipo pack.

My lipos are fine I did the battery analyzer test and they're both where they should be. I vape around 10-20 ml a day so it's pretty easy to drain a lipo pack. Honestly though as long as I can go through an eight hour shift that's good enough for me, if I need more juice than that I bring the reuleaux with three HG2 batteries.

i wish i could get more than a few hours and i don't vape all that high of a wattage with only being around 22.5 to 25w with my single battery mods( .2 to .5 ohms, single and dual coils). with my dual battery squonker i'm usually 45 to 60w, but dual or quad build, i wont even get 2 hours... but part of that is the way i vape. i'm still dreaming for the 50-75a 10,000 mah 18650's...

i don't like lipos for the simple reason of a mod becoming a paperweight when the battery gets low and so having to carry a spare mod always, or if the battery dies outright. at least with the 18650's i can carry a few spares to change out when needed. the idea of one being more dangerous than the other was never a thought to me, all batteries can be dangerous if abused in some way or not stored properly.

50-75 amp 18650 won't be happening anytime soon, there's really no need for the battery industry to make that kind of crazy cell. Lipo can be the future but we need more mod manufactures making swappable packs. What I love about lipo is that you can get a 35 amp 3s lipo for $20, there's even some crazy 70 amp packs out there but those are big and expensive.

 

[Frenchfry1942]

It is short for liposuction. My wife seems to like it.

 

[Cheallaigh]

My lipos are fine I did the battery analyzer test and they're both where they should be. I vape around 10-20 ml a day so it's pretty easy to drain a lipo pack. Honestly though as long as I can go through an eight hour shift that's good enough for me, if I need more juice than that I bring the reuleaux with three HG2 batteries.


50-75 amp 18650 won't be happening anytime soon, there's really no need for the battery industry to make that kind of crazy cell. Lipo can be the future but we need more mod manufactures making swappable packs. What I love about lipo is that you can get a 35 amp 3s lipo for $20, there's even some crazy 70 amp packs out there but those are big and expensive.

yes there's need! we wants it! my precious...

 

[beckdg]

A year ago mentioning rewrapping a torn cell was a major controversy.

The "accepted experts" on the site believed it was better to "not risk it".

Applying the heat of a hair dryer to a cell for a couple seconds was "too risky".

How the hell did they think wrappers got on there in the first place?

Not to mention, internal LiPo battery mods are actually SAFER for someone who doesn't want an education in batteries from A) the electronics/mathematical point of view and B) the individual product traits and knowledge point of view.

Not to mention safe chargers and practices, etc., etc.

The COMPANY that manufactures them does all that for you.

It's plug and play.

Nothing for you to screw up or choose incorrectly.

Tapatyped

 

[beckdg]

there's even some crazy 70 amp packs out there but those are big and expensive.

You must be speaking of Mod size.

Cause this ain't 'spensive...

True Spec Premium 7.4V 5000mAh 112Amps/90C Traxxas

Tapatyped

 

[beckdg]

IMO not using a mod with a lipo is like not using a cell phone because they use lipo. Is lipo more dangerous? Yes! Will your' mod blow up? Not likely, especially if you're using an Evolv board that's constantly monitoring the pack. As far as them being fragile, that's not entirely true because the rc hobby beats the piss out of there packs and they rarely have issues.

THANK YOU!!!

And yes, I DO.

Tapatyped

 

[beckdg]

Time and time again, I've seen people post something to the effect of "never use a mod with a built-in LiPo battery, they are much more dangerous than the Li-ion batteries that are used in mods with replaceable batteries." And it's left me wondering, does anybody actually know what a "LiPo" really is?

From my research, there are two kinds of batteries referred to as "LiPo". Initially, they referred to a different chemistry, one that used a solid polymer electrolyte instead of the standard liquid lithium-salt electrolyte. These original "lithium polymer" batteries are more dangerous than the standard replaceable batteries we use, but fortunately, they are still a topic of research, and have not yet reached full commercialization; these are not the kind of batteries that are used in "LiPo" devices.

More recently, "LiPo" refers usually to a standard-chemistry lithium-ion battery, but instead of a rigid metal can or box, the "guts" of the battery are contained within a flexible polymer pouch. These are the kind of batteries that are used in our "LiPo" devices (cell phones, laptops, e-cigarette mods, etc.) and, aside from the obvious physical fragility, they are not any more dangerous than the replaceable batteries we use every day.

So, next time you tell someone they shouldn't use a built-in battery mod because LiPo's are "more dangerous" than 18650's, ask yourself this. Do you really know what you are talking about, or are you just full of beans?

I have been preaching the answers that you speak on deaf ears since 2013 on this site.

Next someone needs to challenge the 100% accuracy of battery university...

And any claim made by Brandon or his next hired crony of MaxAmps that makes his batteries worth more than any other brand...

5 times more...

Thanks to highly inflated specs...

In a sector of the battery industry where the entire industry makes efest look honest in their specs.

MANUFACTURERS PRINT inflated specs DIRECTLY ON THE CELLS as a STANDARD PRACTICE.

So it's best to know what your battery actually can do.

Tapatyped