The bolded parts I understand.
The non-bolded parts, my simple rebuttal question would be, why? Why is manufacturer responsible for defective product?
When it comes to devices where does the true responsibility for safety rest
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The bolded parts I understand.
The non-bolded parts, my simple rebuttal question would be, why? Why is manufacturer responsible for defective product?
Mooch, thank you for a comprehensive and complete response. I know you get hammered all the time with questions so I appreciate you circling around to answer the question.
They made it and sold it under the guise that it works as described. You'd never pay me for a medicine that didn't work and made your nuts fall off. At least IF you knew before hand. What if you didn't? Should I be allowed to keep making it and selling it? Cures cancer! All fake 5* reviews. Don't listen to anyone who says otherwise, they work for the man.
Defective by design is present in a lot of (bad)Chinese products, they are constructed to give the illusion that they will function just long enough so you can't demand your money back. Right now a lot of sellers take the blame. I buy fake VTC5s and who refunds me? Then their recourse is what? Send back the whole batch and cross fingers or keep selling them an hope nobody notices.
I use these unknowingly in a mod designed for 20 amps but they are actually 4 amp batteries and blow up. Now who is responsible? Me, sure. I have to deal with the fallout of whatever happened and nobody made me vape. Same way you get hit by a drunk driver and its your fault. You could have walked.
This is my real worry with fake specs and unsafe devices. You could think you are safe and if someone wasn't scamming, you would be. Unless you knew or should have know better; it falls back on the OEM.
The only question I have Oblong is why do someone's nuts have to fall off. 
Personally I hate when that happens.
Personally I hate when that happens.
I believe it is part of what the consumer is paying for. Let's say I own a restaurant. If you order food and I prepare that food using expired ingredients and you get sick, it's my responsibility. If I prepare that food using ingredients that are tainted in a way that is not obvious to me, but you still get sick, I'm still responsible, even though I can pass some of that responsibility along to my suppliers.
If you are selling X, and X is comprised of A, B, and C, you are responsible for ensuring that A, B, and C came together in the way they were supposed to in order to provide X. That is the service you are being paid for.
Why is a manufacturer responsible for a defective product?
Where is the incentive for a manufacturer or a retailer to maintain quality if they are allowed to sell defective merchandise the same as quality merchandise?
$$$$$$$ is the incentive.
The only reason they started a business on the first place.
If they manufacture a poor quality product no one will buy it, if it's popular concept, another company will make a better one (or clone) and improve it.
The incentive is Market $hare.
The only question I have Oblong is why do someone's nuts have to fall off.
Ok, just for you I'll whip up a batch that melts eyes instead. Still cures cancer though. Believe it!
That is sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo (did I add enough o's?) far from the truth its not even funny.
A ton of companies will make one design and either make it cheaper or better. It can all be one "thing", ie all are "iSticks" but one just happens to blow up and the others are fine. Do you want to be that guy with the missing hand. I'll leave you to it.
In the time it takes you to learn JianFong in shenzen is making defective isticks they have folded up shop and are now DonQuing in shenzen. While the others delivered devices with better or worse parts and made a reasonable profit, JianFong made money hand over fist. Instead of using voltage regulators they just wired things up and made the LCD tell you what you want.
you have to be playing devil's advocate here
No one forces anyone to buy an iStick.
There are plenty of better quality products.
Just do a tiny bit of cursory research.
Some customers buy without research.
(Which just seems incredibly nuts to me, especially when it comes to PVs).
That's on them. Lots of people
Make bad decisions, it's okay but it's still on them.
$$$$$$$ is the incentive.
The only reason they started a business on the first place.
If they manufacture a poor quality product no one will buy it, if it's popular concept, another company will make a better one (or clone) and improve it.
The incentive is Market $hare.
So X number of consumers have to deal with a defective product and spread by word of mouth its harmful nature?
That is fine with just quality alone, not quality vs. defective or hidden defects that can maime or kill you, or make your nads fall off that the consumer was unaware of.
Yes, some people enjoy being the guinea pig.
Take a look over at the fasttech forums.
There are people who buy every single product just to review them.
Sometimes you get a dud.
That's the price you pay for being the first to buy an untested product.
Most vendors have a warranty policy that covers duds.
Choosing to buy an untested unwarranted product is again all on the buyer.
Google is your friend.
You run the risk when you are first in line to purchase a device upon it's release. I keep telling myself to stop it but I'm fairly selective.
When you are one of the first word of mouth is the only way and in todays world to get information out to the masses, it doesn't take more than a day or two for the word to spread. Google really is your friend and I would have to agree that a tiny bit of cursory research is very easy these days. No one is two busy to do a 30 second search.
What I don't agree with is that producing mods knowingly with poor quality is even remotely acceptable, especially if it's to improve your margins.
With the deeming regs still in play mods failing and people getting hurt are just adding fuel to the fire. People getting hurt can't be part of the equation. If that's JianFong in Shenzhen business profile he is only hurting himself and other manufacturers (and users) and the clamps will get put on imports too.
When you are one of the first word of mouth is the only way and in todays world to get information out to the masses, it doesn't take more than a day or two for the word to spread. Google really is your friend and I would have to agree that a tiny bit of cursory research is very easy these days. No one is two busy to do a 30 second search.
What I don't agree with is that producing mods knowingly with poor quality is even remotely acceptable, especially if it's to improve your margins.
With the deeming regs still in play mods failing and people getting hurt are just adding fuel to the fire. People getting hurt can't be part of the equation. If that's JianFong in Shenzhen business profile he is only hurting himself and other manufacturers (and users) and the clamps will get put on imports too.
The US isn't the only market and regulations on imports are bypassed every single day.
My point being, don't expect a Shenzen based company to look out for you.
Ima get real for a sec:
If someone requires that level of safety why in gods name are they ordering gear from China????
If defective and not part of manufacturing process (quality control), then of course it would continue to be sold. I kind of feel every single industry has defective products. And with medicine, it seems like no brainer that there are defective products sold that are still marketed/making huge profit. Chantix comes to mind as one of many examples.
Just cause a product may have instances of being defective, doesn't mean it is always this way, for all users.
Hmmm. Decent examples. With the expired ingredients, that would seem like lack of quality control (manufacturing error). But the second one is more of what I'm getting at. If not obvious to chef, and chef is practicing good quality control, then I think they are already being responsible, and it is thus no one's responsibility that it was defective.
I'm not sure restaurant is good example because I imagine even if not defective, they'll reimburse in most cases. I've been with a person who regardless of how food is prepared, will always send it back when it first arrives. Thus claiming defective, and thus getting second order made for them, and I've never seen the restaurant dispute it. But reality is, I stopped going to restaurants with this person years ago. I heard they still routinely do this.
I also think many companies will reimburse with perception of defective invoked, but IMO, that doesn't amount to they knew they did something wrong/irresponsible and are taking responsibility to fix their error. I just see it as wonderful customer service, and that in many instances no one is responsible for the defective product instance.
Agreed. But if quality control shows A, B, and C are all good to go and X was produced accurately, but by time customer receives it is perceived as defective, then a few things could be the cause of this. One of those causes, in my opinion and/or experience is not the result of human actions.
I say perceived as defective because in some instances it isn't obvious. Here in this discussion we are aiming for obvious to help make the point simple, I think. But taking vaping for instance. If I order eLiquid flavor called "Strawberry Caramel" and I've had it before from same vendor, but in latest order it doesn't have the caramel after taste that I've come to expect, I'm going to perceive that as defective. If in reality of manufacturing that flavor, all ingredients are fresh and mixed with high quality assurances, then that strikes me as manufacturer did the process responsibly. But as part of this reality, it could be that some teeny tiny chemical component was altered slightly (not resulting in any harm to me the user) by flavor manufacturer, but is what the perceived difference is. Yet, without the caramel taste, it is a defective product. That's what I'm more or less trying to get across. Though even in this case, I am assuming some sort of human intervention that lead to the noticeable change, though also must say it is highly unlikely this would ever be communicated to me, unless I pressed and pressed to get an answer. So, I'll just chalk it up as 'defective' and likely move on.
To me, a better example (I think) is how we all accept that mechanical products will eventually wear down and stop working. Well if that was sped up to occur in say 1/10th the time, then that product would be defective. But if quality control for that particular product showed it as good to go from the manufacturer, then I don't see it as irresponsible action by manufacturer, and is just (for me) along lines of "act of nature" that it occurred. Make sense?
I think we're in agreement on most things, and I think a lot of the disagreement boils down to the difference(at least in my mind) between "responsible" and "at fault."
Tainted meat would not be the chef's "fault" but the restaurant is still "responsible" for the outcome. They would not be the only one's responsible, but they would be a member of the group responsible.
In the case of the e-liquid, if I use certain flavorings, and the flavoring manufacturer changes the recipe and informs me, I should pass on that information. If they don't inform me, I should probably be sampling my product at times throughout my process for QC. If it just slips past me and what you received is not what you reasonably expected to receive, that too is my responsibility, thought it may not be my fault.
As for mechanical wear and tear. If something functions as it should when purchased, and then wears out, that's not necessarily a defect. Even if it was designed to be made of cheap materials that will only last for X amount of days, that is not a defect, it's underhanded and shameful but that's something altogether different.
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