When it comes to devices where does the true responsibility for safety rest

[DaveP]

One man's safety feature is another man's deal breaking limitation.

It's kind of like saying how do we make a safer cup, how do we prevent someone from pouring bleach into their cup and drinking it? Yes, I know that is an oversimplification.

As for venting batteries... Are we even positive it is the venting gasses that cause the boom? I watched a video yesterday of a battery going into thermal runaway(which actually took 2 minutes from dead short to visible gas venting) and yes, it released gas for a couple of minutes but at the end there was a noticeable pop of the batteries top and then an explosion/flash of the battery. Every time I've seen the aftermath, there is an expanded solid debris that must be the internals of the battery. Has anyone actually done an experiment of venting a battery in a mod that does/does not have "adequate" venting?

Batteries in an open environment can build up internal pressure and spew when shorted. They may pop depending on the case construction, but generally spew for a while before. In an enclosed mod, all bets are off. It's all about whether the gases can escape fast enough to vent the pressure to the outside through the top battery cap.

My Provari V2 has one hole on the battery cap and an o-ring mounted top cap on the atomizer end that can slide out under pressure.

My Smok Koopor Plus 200W has 110 holes on the side and 24 holes on the bottom, plus a magnetic mount on the side battery cover with the 110 holes.

Which is safer ... The bottle rocket with one hole and a pressure cap or the one that lets fire out 134 holes in your pocket? I've had the magnetic side cover come off the Smok Koopor in my jeans pocket as I pulled it out. That reminded me not to keep change or keys (or anything else) in that left pocket. I've started keeping it in my coat pocket in cold weather just because I can shed the coat in a second or two. Maybe I should find a cell phone type belt case. I don't care for the stretchy yellow/orange silicone case that comes with it. It's too much trouble to take it off and put it on for a battery swap.

We are all responsible for assessing safety in the products we use. Many don't even think about it until it happens. The beauty of being in a forum like ECF is that we see the posts about battery safety and that makes us think about potential problems. Too many people buy in a B&M and assume that it's safe or the government wouldn't allow it to be sold. (wrong!)

 

[Canadian_Vaper]

Dual 18650 devices maxed out @ 200W

Even manufacturers admit they won't reach 200w ^__^
Same for the others think of it kinda like a car, speedometer says it goes 200mph but does it really?

Look at the cubis, they had it set to 150w it could barely pull that off, firmware upgrade to 200w because people want a 200w device even if they can't achieve it not 150....

 

[Marc411]

Even manufacturers admit they won't reach 200w ^__^
Same for the others think of it kinda like a car, speedometer says it goes 200mph but does it really?

Look at the cubis, they had it set to 150w it could barely pull that off, firmware upgrade to 200w because people want a 200w device even if they can't achieve it not 150....

I used the same analogy earlier. And even if can do 200 MPH is safe or the smart thing to do. And if it does do 200 mph and you throw a rod and wreck is it the manufactures fault or yours for pushing it to the limit.

I'm hoping Mooch can answer my question, the revised and hopefully more coherent one. In the last couple days I've seen a couple posts about members asking about max wattage with low ohm builds on batteries that I don't believe can handle the continuous discharge.

 

[DaveP]

The scary part is rewrapped batteries that come from bulk stock. For those who vape low amperage it's not really an issue, but when pushed any battery can go into failure mode when amp ratings are exceeded.

I get grief when I mention that I own and use a pair of recent Efest 18650 35W (shudder) batts. Yes, they can be 10A 0r 20A rewraps and aren't nearly as tough as advertised. As everyone says, you don't know what you have when you buy Efest and I agree with that.

My Samsung 25R's perform about as long as the Efests, so I must have the 20A version inside my purple sleeves. Both the Efests and the Samsungs were purchased within a week of each other. I get a day and a half from both pairs married and vaping at 10W in a dual battery 200W VW/TC mod. The Samsungs actually cost less online than the Efests were from a local vape shop. There's really no reason to buy cheap batteries when the good ones are fairly priced.

 

[Canadian_Vaper]

I get grief when I mention that I own and use a pair of recent Efest 18650 35W (shudder) batts.

Mine all worked around the correct amps, the big problem was for me they were rated 2500mah and were actually 1623mah a blatant lie, not going to trust a company that lies to my face

My LG HE4's 2500mah tested at 2687 mah...

 

[KenD]

A lot of posts about the safety of these devices but nobody suggesting how to make them safer...maybe double walled mechs and mods designed to vent in a particular way? hell have it vent through a tube into a fireproof balloon-a-mabob

This whole discussion started from some of us pointing out, in other threads, that a single battery can't safely do 100w and two batteries can't safely do 200w. For my part, the only thing I've asked for is that manufacturers not sell devices that can't function safely within their intended parameters. A regulated mod capable of 200w is obviously made to be able to do 200w, but if it's a two-battery mod it can't do so safely. That makes it a bad and irresponsible design. The consumer is not stupid if he/she assumes that the device can safely do what it's advertised to be able to do (it's really beyond me how anyone can claim otherwise).

Mech mods are different, they're not made to work within any specific parameters so it's totally up to the user to know the limits.

Sent from my M7_PLUS using Tapatalk

 

[Marc411]

But Ken Mooch's response to your question regarding the 26650 Stout was this:

Actually, any of these four easily handle 40A pulses (5 sec on/30 sec off) and only rise up to about 60°C if discharged all the way down to 2.5V. In a Stout they would probably only hit about 55°C°C due to the 2.9V cutoff.

The run time wouldn't be very good at 100W but certainly better than any 18650. At 100W you're above the CDR of all four of them but these 26650's just have their voltages crash instead of overheating if run too hard. They might get damaged some if the mod autofired at 100W but I don't think they would heat up anywhere near hot enough to vent.

And this is the reason I am asking Mooch about the dual 18650 and single 18650 being used at high wattages in a regulated device.

Is there really risk or will the device stop functioning if it is working properly and the batteries are stressed?

Will the cells go Thermal?

It appears that the 26650 have a greater chance of damage than they do at venting. And that they would most likely hit the cutoff on the regulated mod of 2.9V.

Do regulated devices if working properly remove the majority of the risk.

If a consumer pushes the limits of a battery due to a lack of knowledge or an accident who must accept the burden of responsibility.

As someone stated earlier, just because I car has a speedometer that goes to 200 MPH does it really? Should you test it?

Why are they selling cars that have a speedometer that goes to 200mph if the car can't go that fast safely? Hell my Tundra says I can do 150 MPH, really, safely?

 

[DaveP]

This whole discussion started from some of us pointing out, in other threads, that a single battery can't safely do 100w and two batteries can't safely do 200w. For my part, the only thing I've asked for is that manufacturers not sell devices that can't function safely within their intended parameters. A regulated mod capable of 200w is obviously made to be able to do 200w, but if it's a two-battery mod it can't do so safely. That makes it a bad and irresponsible design. The consumer is not stupid if he/she assumes that the device can safely do what it's advertised to be able to do (it's really beyond me how anyone can claim otherwise).

Mech mods are different, they're not made to work within any specific parameters so it's totally up to the user to know the limits.

Sent from my M7_PLUS using Tapatalk

That's a very good point. If it can do 200W at some voltage/resistance combination they will advertise it as being capable of 200W. It's out of range for most dual 18650 combinations. Some of the numbers below aren't workable in most mods because of voltage or resistance limits in the logic. I'm sure there's a unique combination that is within the voltage range of a certain mod and the current limit of a certain 18650 dual battery build. It's not mainstream and who would want it?

202.5W= 45A @ 4.5v at .1 ohms
200W = 36.5A @ 5.5v at .15 ohms
200W = 20A @ 10V at .5 ohms
200W = 28A @ 7V at .25 ohms

 

[zoiDman]

But Ken Mooch's response to your question regarding the 26650 Stout was this:
...

If I put a freshly charged 18650 Battery in a Stout using the OEM provided Battery Sleeve, and then set the Mod to 100 Watts, will it fire?

Will it fire at 100 Watts if the 18650 Battery is at 3.7 Volts?

 

[Marc411]

zoiD, I can only speak from my personal experience because I tried it with both an 18650 and a 26650 and I got a low battery alert and the device wouldn't fire. I believe there is a review by a guy named Mike that attempted the same thing with the same results.

I'm stupid but I needed to get the answer for myself. That being said my device is working as designed. It could be a problem if someone had a device with a defect.

I have not attempted to build a coil that would fire at 100W because I have no desire to vape anything that hot. When I purchased both my dual cell 18650 and single 26650 it was never with the intention of using all the available wattage.

 

[Rossum]

If the software in regulated mod is properly designed and implemented, it should be able to monitor the battery's internal resistance by looking at the battery's sag vs. the current it's pulling from the battery, and if you know the battery's internal resistance, it should be possible to model temperature rise as well.

But even a relatively simplistic approach of not allowing more than a certain amount of sag under load would go a long way toward keeping a battery from going critical.

Either way, the mod won't fire at "rated" power if the battery can't handle it.

 

[zoiDman]

zoiD, I can only speak from my personal experience because I tried it with both an 18650 and a 26650 and I got a low battery alert and the device wouldn't fire. I believe there is a review by a guy named Mike that attempted the same thing with the same results.

I'm stupid but I needed to get the answer for myself. That being said my device is working as designed. It could be a problem if someone had a device with a defect.

I have not attempted to build a coil that would fire at 100W because I have no desire to vape anything that hot. When I purchased both my dual cell 18650 and single 26650 it was never with the intention of using all the available wattage.

Thanks Marc.

I asked because I Don't a Stout. But I knew that you had gotten one. Just wasn't sure if you had Sent it Back after some of the Initial Glitches people were Reporting in the Stout thread.

And I Didn't know if the Inability to Fire at 100W was a Glitch? Or if it was by Design

 

[KenD]

That's a very good point. If it can do 200W at some voltage/resistance combination they will advertise it as being capable of 200W. It's out of range for most dual 18650 combinations.

200W = 20A @10V at .5 ohms
200W = 28A @ 7V at .25 ohms
200W = 36.5A @5.5v at .15 ohms

That's not how amp draw at the battery works on regulated mods though.

Watts (add 10% to account for device inefficiency) / battery voltage (cutoff, as that's the peak of the amp draw).

On a two-battery 200w mod:

200(220)w / 6.4v (two batteries in series) = 34.375 amps.

That's why, to give an example, Yihi has said that you'll need 35 amp batteries (which, of course, don't exist) for their new two-battery 200w mod.

Sent from my M7_PLUS using Tapatalk

 

[Marc411]

,I did send my Silver back zoiD because it wouldn't turn on with a 26650 in it but would work with an 18650.

I will also say that the sag on most of my 26650's at 39 watts a .34 ohm coil is pretty significant, more than I expected.

And to KenD's point safety always needs to be our main focus.

With Rossum's response it actually quantified my actual experiences with regulated mods. If the chip is working correctly, the mod has no defects a mod should not fire if you exceed what the battery can deliver.

I don't believe there is truly a safety issue. That being said I believe the point is that the OEM is falsely representing the capabilities of their device.

 

[Rossum]

With Rossum's response it actually quantified my actual experiences with regulated mods. If the chip is working correctly, the mod has no defects a mod should not fire if you exceed what the battery can deliver.

If I were in charge of the design specs, it would still fire, but at a power level that doesn't excessively stress the battery.

 

[Marc411]

It's one of those safety features folks mentioned in this thread.

 

[Mooch]

Sorry Mooch for being vague or maybe just a little dense. My question is this, even with quality batteries are OEM's putting users at risk because they are releasing devices that at the max wattage are going to cause batteries to fail? Example:

Someone picks up a 200W device and places a .2 ohm build into it and ramps it up to 200W on a set of 25R's.

What type of run time can they expect? Can they easily push the battery past it's limits and cause the cell to go thermal?

Each of the devices listed below seem to exceed a battery (s) useable CDR but have been released to the open market.

Dual 18650 devices maxed out @ 200W
Single 26650 devices maxed out @ 100W
Single 18650 devices maxed out @ 90W

It's very hard to force a battery into thermal runaway without short circuiting it. There are some that can be forced to vent if pushed hard enough but most of the lower current rated batteries, and even a lot of the high current rated batteries, just have their voltage collapse at high discharge levels and you'd get a low battery alert.

Even the crappy 20A batteries can usually be pulsed at 40A and beyond, making them capable of powering a 100W device individually or a 200W device as a pair. They might get pretty warm if chain vaping but not enough to vent. There's no real danger unless the mod autofires and the battery is discharged continuously. If that happens there are a few batteries that might vent. But not many at this "low" of a discharge current level.

The battery life at these high levels will be crap though and a lot of batteries might only fire the mod for a couple of pulls before a low battery message appears.

With all that said, are these devices putting users at risk? Difficult to answer.
They're not putting anyone at any more risk than any mechanical or unregulated mod is. One can argue though that regulated mods are often used by new vapers and that they should be held to a different standard than mechanical/unregulated mods.

We're in a really tough position here. We want to encourage vapers to stay below the CDR for long battery life and a good safety margin but batteries can be vaped with at beyond their CDR, sometimes far beyond, without risk of venting. Even if the mod malfunctions. A lot of new vapers see the videos, read the posts, hear the stories, and immediately want to run at beyond the CDR. They see their friends and others do it without incident (but not without risk) and see no reason why they shouldn't either.

How do we handle that? If we yell at them that it's crazy dangerous and they'll blow up, they're not going to listen as that hasn't happened to anyone they know. If we try to educate them calmly they won't listen because it's boring and they don't believe us anyway since "everyone else" does it without issues. We could tell them how far they can go past the CDR with a reasonable degree of safety (because it really is pretty safe, up to a point) but now a lot of other people get upset because they feel that the CDR is a hard limit.

There's no good answer here IMHO.

 

[mauricem00]

The scary part is rewrapped batteries that come from bulk stock. For those who vape low amperage it's not really an issue, but when pushed any battery can go into failure mode when amp ratings are exceeded.

I get grief when I mention that I own and use a pair of recent Efest 18650 35W (shudder) batts. Yes, they can be 10A 0r 20A rewraps and aren't nearly as tough as advertised. As everyone says, you don't know what you have when you buy Efest and I agree with that.

My Samsung 25R's perform about as long as the Efests, so I must have the 20A version inside my purple sleeves. Both the Efests and the Samsungs were purchased within a week of each other. I get a day and a half from both pairs married and vaping at 10W in a 200W VW/TC mod. The Samsungs actually cost less online than the Efests were from a local vape shop. There's really no reason to buy cheap batteries when the good ones are fairly priced.

unfortunately some of these batteries are used, pulled from equipment, re wrapped and sold as new and some mods are sold with no instructions or warnings. if the industry does not start acting responsibly and regulate themselves the government will regulate the whole industry to protect consumers from a small group of unscrupulous sellers. thats a fact of life we are going to have to live with. for those who vape at high power they need to check the production date as well. (usually a code on the battery wrapping) they do lose capacity if stored too long.

 

[DaveP]

That's not how amp draw at the battery works on regulated mods though.

Watts (add 10% to account for device inefficiency) / battery voltage (cutoff, as that's the peak of the amp draw).

On a two-battery 200w mod:

200(220)w / 6.4v (two batteries in series) = 34.375 amps.

That's why, to give an example, Yihi has said that you'll need 35 amp batteries (which, of course, don't exist) for their new two-battery 200w mod.

Sent from my M7_PLUS using Tapatalk

My Smok 200W does have the batteries wired in series. Forgot about that. Current in a series circuit is the same through all components. I plugged in 3.7v for my examples ... force of habit. I'm too used to thinking about ecigs at 4.2v max.

 

[KenD]

My Smok 200W does have the batteries wired in series. Forgot about that. Current in a series circuit is the same through all components. I"m too used to thinking about ecigs at 4.2v max.

The drain on the batteries is the same on a parallel regulated mod:

200(+10%)w / 3.2v = 68.75

But that's divided between two batteries, so 34.38 amps per battery.

200w within the cdr of 30 amp batteries is possible if the voltage doesn't drop below 3.7v. That doesn't take battery sag into account though.

Sent from my M7_PLUS using Tapatalk