Why aren't the tobacco industries picking up on e-smoking

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jimik

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I've been trying to understand why they would not invest in it. I tried an analog cigarette today and quite honestly it was horrible. It tasted like crap compared to my e-cigarette.

My skeptic side is kicking in overtime right now, as far as I can see it they would be providing a healthier alternative to tobacco. This would mean they would have a longer living consumer to purchase their product.

There must be a reason why they have not taken the initiative thus far. I would love to hear the reasoning or even the opinion as to why they have not yet. The best I have come up with is perhaps their hands are tied in other legalities.
 
I've been trying to understand why they would not invest in it. I tried an analog cigarette today and quite honestly it was horrible. It tasted like crap compared to my e-cigarette.

My skeptic side is kicking in overtime right now, as far as I can see it they would be providing a healthier alternative to tobacco. This would mean they would have a longer living consumer to purchase their product.

There must be a reason why they have not taken the initiative thus far. I would love to hear the reasoning or even the opinion as to why they have not yet. The best I have come up with is perhaps their hands are tied in other legalities.

i think, at this first moment, they will not do anything unless "help" governamental health instituitions along the world, they will keep lobbying, and clame for a ban or something like that. no matter how they will do it, but they will find a way to ban it, just because they have money. and want to keep having it.

if the ban do not occours (e-cigs safety proved by big countries), they will take a initiative.

sincerely, i want them broke. :evil:
 

el lobo furtivo

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Think about it this way....

Many of us were hooked on smoking and tobacco well before we were old enough to drink (legally). After that, cigarette companies don't have to worry about us, we're going to keep buying their product. Their target demographic IS the mid-to-late teen crowd. The beauty of it for them is that they don't even have to market it that way, kids will always be drawn to what they're not allowed to have.

Now, when you first started smoking, what was easier to do: scrounge up $80 just to even own an e-cig (not to mention the $200 or so needed to actually have a sustainable supply), or walk into the gas station where your buddy works and plop down $5 on a pack of Marlboros? E-cigs for us is about a healthier correction (or at least alternative) to a mistake we made years ago. But for the cigarette buyer tobacco companies are concerned about, actual smoking is a cheap way to look cool, feel older and rebel.

Big Tobacco will not invest in e-cigs simply because they do not have to. There will always be a fresh batch of kids to buy their crap.
 

Nepenthy

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Phillip Morris developed something extremely similar to e-cig back in the early 70's but did not release it to the general public. Back then they were saying cigarettes werent addictive, so releasing a nicotine delivery system would have countered that claim. I dont have any site listing this info, but an older guy in my neighborhood wasnt suprised by my PV at all, and said " I remember when they were thinking about releasing those when I was younger". The above info is all he could give me.
 

Stranger

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checkout archive.org
they have hours of footage from big toabacco
RJR had "Premier"
PM just recently tested one that still used tobacco but did burn it.
Later on tonite if I can find the links I will post them (if I can post links yet).

The main hold up before was if they said this was a less harmful cigarette, they would be admitting the regular ones were harmful.

Sadly most nonsmoker's responses them were the same as they are now to the e cig. "It still is not healthy, they should just quit."
 

Kate51

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I think the reason Big Tobacco is not "biting" on PV's is very simple; they wouldn't dare to risk exposing what they've known for decades about the tobacco cigarettes! How are they going to advertise their "new" technology, by comparing the old data to new data? I believe they'd be open to public hangings is we found out what they really did know. The Congressional Hearings alone would be brutal. Or would they advertise their "new" without disclosing anything. Wouldn't that alone raise heat? Lose Lose situation. The BT Lobby would disappear, billions of dollars gone for naught. Just a theory, but their best efforts so far have been to demonize the "new" intruders in their soft beds.
 

sherid

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Phillip Morris developed something extremely similar to e-cig back in the early 70's but did not release it to the general public. Back then they were saying cigarettes werent addictive, so releasing a nicotine delivery system would have countered that claim. I dont have any site listing this info, but an older guy in my neighborhood wasnt suprised by my PV at all, and said " I remember when they were thinking about releasing those when I was younger". The above info is all he could give me.

It's been posted before, but here it is again....think Janty Stick.
NOVA Online | Search for a Safe Cigarette | "Safer" Cigarettes: A History
"Safer" Cigarettes: A History
Part 2 | Back to Part 1


The mouse that roared
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The XA Project
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In the 1970s, Liggett Group, Inc. embarked on its own safe-cigarette program known as the "XA Project." The project focused on blending additives to tobacco to neutralize cancer-causing compounds. The company discovered that blending certain catalysts with tobacco would destroy PAH's—the dangerous compounds which form behind the cigarette's burning tip. The problem was, the company had demonstrated this in mouse skin painting tests—the same type of test conducted by Ernest Wynder that the entire tobacco industry had spent years debunking. Nonetheless, skin painting tests related to the XA Project showed that cancerous tumors were virtually eliminated when the catalyst was added to tobacco.

Liggett faced a marketing problem if it pursued the XA Project cigarettes. How could the company market the benefits of the XA Project cigarettes without making health claims that would subject it to government scrutiny? And how could the company promote mouse skin tests as proof their new cigarettes worked at the same time its lawyers were in courtrooms challenging the validity of mouse tests while defending the company against smokers' lawsuits? A former industry lawyer now says that Liggett was pressured by other cigarette makers to abandon the effort because the "marketing and sale of a safe cigarette could result in infinite liability in civil litigation as it would constitute a direct or implied admission that all other cigarettes were unsafe." Liggett eventually abandoned the project.

By the early 1980s, other cigarette makers also had abandoned many of their efforts to develop a safe cigarette. In addition to the technological hurdles they faced, industry lawyers had grown increasingly wary about the research, and the concession, implicit in such research, that existing cigarettes weren't safe. Nonetheless, more than 150 patents related to designing safe cigarettes have been filed in the United States and the United Kingdom during the past 25 years. Tobacco executives say the fact that a patent has been filed doesn't mean the product is necessarily marketable or acceptable to consumers, but the sheer volume of patents shows that the industry has invested heavily in developing a safer cigarette even as its own executives were denying any link between smoking and disease. And there are now several claims from former industry workers that many tobacco companies shelved research into safer products out of fear of exposing themselves to additional liability. In 1998, for instance, a former Philip Morris researcher testified that the company shelved promising research to remove cadmium, a lung irritant, from tobacco plants.

Smokers didn't give Premier a chance, its maker maintains.
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High-tech cigarettes
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Despite such criticism, the major cigarette makers have attempted to market several versions of safer cigarettes. In 1988, RJR introduced a high-tech cigarette called Premier. Premier, touted as a virtually smokeless cigarette that dramatically reduced the cancer-causing compounds inhaled by smokers, was made of aluminum capsules that contained tobacco pellets. The pellets were heated instead of burned, thereby producing less smoke and ash than traditional cigarettes. Although the product looked like a traditional cigarette, it required its own instruction booklet showing consumers how to light it.

From the beginning, Premier had several strikes against it. RJR had spent an estimated $800 million developing the brand, and the total cost was expected to soar to $1 billion by the time it was placed in national distribution. The costly project was put into test market just as Kohlberg Kravis Roberts & Co. had embarked on a $25 billion leveraged buyout of RJR that had saddled the company with debt. And the cigarette faced a lengthy regulatory battle after public health officials argued it should be regulated by the FDA as a drug. But the biggest problem with Premier was the fact that consumers simply couldn't get used to it. Many smokers complained about the taste, which some smokers said left a charcoal taste in their mouths. RJR had also gambled that smokers would be willing to give Premier several tries before making a final decision about whether to smoke it. RLR estimated that to acquire a taste for Premier, smokers would have to consume two to three packs to be won over. But as it turned out, most smokers took one cigarette and shared the rest of the pack with friends, and few bothered to buy it again. RJR scrapped the brand in early 1989, less than a year after it was introduced.

In 1989, Philip Morris entered the fray with a virtually nicotine-free cigarette called Next that it claimed was better than other low-nicotine varieties because its taste was indistinguishable from regular cigarettes. The nicotine was removed from Next using high-pressure carbon dioxide in a process similar to the method used by coffee companies when making decaffeinated coffee. Next cigarettes were touted for their "rich flavor" and referred to as "de-nic" cigarettes. But tobacco critics complained that Next actually had higher tar levels than many cigarettes, and that heavy smokers would simply smoke more Next cigarettes to give their bodies the nicotine they crave. (To learn how the brain becomes dependent on nicotine, see The Dope on Nicotine.) The product flopped and was withdrawn.


In RJR's Eclipse, most of the tobacco doesn't burn but rather heats up, producing a smoke-like vapor.
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Despite those setbacks, both RJR and Philip Morris have tried again with high-tech versions of smokeless cigarettes. In 1994, RJR began testing the Eclipse smokeless cigarette, which claimed to reduce secondhand smoke by 85 to 90 percent. Eclipse is more like an ordinary cigarette than its predecessor Premier because it contains tobacco and reconstituted tobacco. But it also includes a charcoal tip that, when lighted, heats glycerin added to the cigarette but does not burn the tobacco. The result is a cigarette that emits tobacco flavor without creating ash and smoke. But RJR isn't touting Eclipse as a safe cigarette, instead marketing it as a more socially acceptable product less offensive to non-smokers. Indeed, because Eclipse still burns some tobacco, it has tar levels similar to those of ultra-light cigarettes already on the market. Eclipse emits lower tar levels of cancer-causing compounds than many existing cigarettes, but it still produces carbon monoxide and nicotine. And questions have also been raised about the effects of heating glycerin. When burned, glycerin is known to be carcinogenic. It also remains unclear whether the FDA will attempt to regulate Eclipse if RJR launches it nationally.

Philip Morris is testing its own high-tech cigarette called Accord, which has been described as a cigarette encased in a kazoo-shaped lighter. Consumers buy a $40 kit that includes a battery charger, a puff-activated lighter that holds the cigarette, and a carton of special cigarettes. To smoke the cigarettes, a smoker sucks on the kazoolike box. A microchip senses the puff and sends a burst of heat to the cigarette. The process gives the smoker one drag and does not create ashes or smoke. An illuminated display shows the number of puffs remaining, and the batteries must be recharged after every pack. It's unclear whether smokers will find the low-smoke and -ash benefits desirable enough to justify learning an entirely new smoking ritual. Although Philip Morris doesn't make health claims about Accord, the company in 1998 told the Society of Toxicology that Accord generated 83 percent fewer toxins than a regular cigarette.

For $40, the Accord smoker gets a battery charger, heating device, and carton of special cigarettes.
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Lowering nitrosamines
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Perhaps the most promising new technology to make a safer cigarette lies in research to lower nitrosamines, those prevalent and deadly cancer-causing compounds in cigarettes. Brown & Williamson and RJR are developing cigarettes that use a special tobacco with lower nitrosamine content. The tobacco is cured with a special process that inhibits the formation of nitrosamines. But Brown &Williamson isn't planning to tout the health benefits of the nitrosamine-free smoke. "We can't be sure nitrosamine-free tobacco is necessarily safer," a B&W spokeswoman told the Wall Street Journal. "We don't want to claim the product is safer unless we are sure it is. It's a bit of a muggy area."

Although public health officials describe the quest for a nitrosamine-free cigarette as a step in the right direction, the research still raises concerns that smokers could be lulled into a false sense of security. Cigarettes without nitrosamines still produce other carcinogens, scientists say, and more smokers die of heart-related ailments than cancer. As Dietrich Hoffmann of the American Health Foundation says, "The best cigarette is no cigarette."
 

Hinterscher

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My 2 cents? Tobacco farmers. Period. Cig without tobacco, they are out of work. Who do you think the farmers are going to go after? The companies that bought their crops, but are now buying less. Like I said, that's just my opinion. Of course, I live in the southern midwest, so I see a lot of tobacco farmers, my great grandpa being one. Sorry Gramps, I LOVE to vape!:p
 

Kate51

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I love stuff like this, such a profound statement.
Good Grief, anything that grows in the ground has nitrosamines in it. Have you tested your carrots lately?

"We can't be sure nitrosamine-free tobacco is necessarily safer," a B&W spokeswoman told the Wall Street Journal. "We don't want to claim the product is safer unless we are sure it is. It's a bit of a muggy area."

I think these people's brains are in a "muggy" area. I won't say any more!!!!!!!!
 

Kent C

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What is this? a born again non-smokers thread? Of course tobacco companies and tobacco farmers want to make money. So do ecigarette companies. That's how they get us the goods we want. The cost in tobacco is a result of gov't taxes not the tobacco company's 'greed'. A pack of cigarettes would be under a buck were it not for taxes and regulation from gov't.

There isn't _anything_ that isn't already 'exposed' about tobacco. And that has been the case now for decades, according to sciences abiltity to analyze. If underage kids are smoking it's the parents' responsibility not the tobacco or ecigarette companies. If adults are uninformed (highly unlikely) about the dangers of tobacco or nicotine it's _their_ fault, no one else's. Any product can kill a idiot.
 

Kate51

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My 2 cents? Tobacco farmers. Period. Cig without tobacco, they are out of work. Who do you think the farmers are going to go after? The companies that bought their crops, but are now buying less. Like I said, that's just my opinion. Of course, I live in the southern midwest, so I see a lot of tobacco farmers, my great grandpa being one. Sorry Gramps, I LOVE to vape!:p

That's a super point! And a very sad statement, isn't it. The by-gone tobacco farmers would be mortified if they could see what the industry has done to their fine tobacco, hand- picked-off bugs and all, and that's a fact. Reconstituted, broken, buffed, sprayed, picked off the floor kind of manufacturing their top selling smokes in a pretty package. Makes one sick. That can be taken literally.
And Kent, don't know if you meant "born-again" as a sarcastic remark, but it really is right on point. I would say we were definitely "enlightened", now we know what the truth means for sure. We're still struggling with this thing, maybe always will, but it's much more than an old worn out cliche can describe. We are just looking to save some old rags for a beauiful quilt, our health. Mine hit bottom before I found my PV. Maybe you haven't experienced horrifying effects of not being able to suck in air. I have. But in light of that, I still need some answers, now. Do no harm has taken on a whole new direction for me, personally, and I suspect for the almost 15,000 members of this Forum as well.
 
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Kent C

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are you sure cigarettes would be under $1 per pack? because i'm thinking duty-free cartons cost about $25 each, so that's a little over $2 per. at any rate, $2 per is a lot cheaper than $6.

I know that a person could do MYO for under a buck/pack (until SCHIPS) and the tobacco was still taxed and regulated. Take that away and keep the cost of mass production and I think you'd get under a buck. There's still some regulation and taxes even in that $2 for duty free.
 

Kate51

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RYO with some nice Golden Harvest Premium tobacco was about $2 per pack after shipping, etc. When it was $11.35/#shipping added, cost about .70 pack. After SCHIPS it was $40.20/# cost with shipping added, just under $2 pack. We smoked light 100's, so my cost per pack a little higher than regular lengths. I said no more, no giving US any more than they deserve!
Some companies who sold bulk tobacco charged even more than that.
 
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Kent C

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RYO with some nice Golden Harvest Premium tobacco was about $2 per pack after shipping, etc. When it was $11.35/#shipping added, cost about .70 pack. After SCHIPS it was $40.20/# cost with shipping added, just under $2 pack. We smoked light 100's, so my cost per pack a little higher than regular lengths. I said no more, no giving US any more than they deserve!
Some companies who sold bulk tobacco charged even more than that.

I always got better prices on bulk. But I was particular as far as taste and that cost me a bit. I stuff and still could for 73 cents a pack. I'm selling off some of my stash, but not all in case of a ban on juice. Plus I liked the Vera Cruz tubes which cost me a few cents a pack ;-) .. but no bleach or paper taste either.
 

Randyrtx

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I'd be very surprised if tobacco companies aren't at the least researching e-cigs. It would make good business sense for them to offer an "alternative" product to those who would otherwise quit.

Academically, it would be interesting to see how the FDA would have handled the e-cig controvery if BT had been involved.

I also have to wonder where Smokefree Innotech fits into the grand scheme of things; they are now reporting that mass production is due to begin in August.

Time to go slap my inner conspiracy theorist back into submission.
 

Kent C

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I'd be very surprised if tobacco companies aren't at the least researching e-cigs. It would make good business sense for them to offer an "alternative" product to those who would otherwise quit.

Academically, it would be interesting to see how the FDA would have handled the e-cig controvery if BT had been involved.

Excellent point. Big Ecig should hire BT consultants to handle the FDA and the US Gov't. They probably know who takes bribes.. er... "contributions".
 

Rusty

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On a slightly iverrential (?) English note;

I think it would be really cool seeing our favourite brands and their version of PVs - marketing, marketing..... I missed it the first time around :( I want to be exposed to it :p. It would be like watching F1 about 20/30 years ago (I miss JPS Lotus).

Just think of how good the major tobacco companies would be with advertising their PVs - cool logos - phrases etc ---- Totally wicked (sorry Jason:cool::cool:).

With government approval, they could be back on TV, sponsoring sports events etc etc etc. Cannot wait :evil::evil::evil:


Sorry :(.


Rusty
 

Zofryer

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Well, lets see...

I'm Philip Morris,

and I just got the closest thing to a product approval from the FDA that I'm going to get. I won't have to stop making cigarettes for a very long time. I have established distribution channels, legislation backing and supporting my enterprise, and I even have local law enforcement going after smugglers crossing borders, because the states have become reliant on unethical sin taxes they've placed on my product, and instead of using that money for "stop smoking programs" like they promised, they are using the money for everything else. So the states don't want me to stop.

*That's political pressure. Heavy political pressure. States are as addicted to that unethical sin tax money they are collecting as smokers are addicted to marlboros.

I'm a publicly traded company. That means I get my best profit from investors when my income and quarterly statements follow a very predictable trend. I can introduce new products in small quantities to give the aire of innovation, but I can't have any one huge product offering be too much of a success (unless carefully forecasted) or be a massive failure or my numbers won't match the outlook, and investor confidence will fall, or I'll become over valued and suffer later. I already have a product that WILL sell because my users are addicted. I have a very loyal customer base. There's no reason to switch games now.

*Investor confidence, stable profit forecast.
*There's no reason to switch games now. This one is playing out so well.

I do not have the machinery in place to convert tobacco into pure nicotine, and rapidly make massive amounts of e-liquid. Even worse, I CAN NOT AFFORD to make liquid as cheaply as DeKang, and DeKang ALREADY can make it an order of magnitude cheaper than I can. On top of that, there's no legal framework in place to guarantee I maintain my artificial monopoly. So on top of retooling costs, and retraining costs, and how that would effect investor confidence, I'd be walking right into a market as NUMBER TWO with a competitor I simply can not compete with on price. My only outlet would be to make statements (truth not mattering) about the quality of my product offering, and quite frankly, that's nowhere close to a safe bet. The barriers to entry are WAY too high.

*Retooling Costs
*Massive Monster of a competitor, DeKang

That last point being the big one. One of the most important sections of a business plan (I've written many) is the "competitive analysis" section in your "Barriers to Entry". The fact that a strong competitor is immediately considered a barrier to entry is in an of itself an idea why 99/100 business plans are complete ...., and not even considered.

That's why Big Tobacco isn't even bothering. Why fight a losing game?

Hope This Helps
 
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