Wta

[pinellaspete]

VadimGod,

It is the BURNING of tobacco in a cig that causes most of the carcinogens.
The burning causes many chemical reactions to take place, changing sometimes harmless ingredients into carcinogens. That's how you end up with thousands of different chemicals.
Tobacco companies don't actually add thousands of chemicals to cigs. But they do add quite a few.

vaping only vaporizes the ejuice. It only heats our ejuice enough to turn it into vapor. It never burns it.
That's the benefit of vaping, if you start out with all FDA approved ingredients, you are ingesting only FDA approved ingredients.

The usual recipe has PG, VG, Nicotine and flavorings which are all fit for human consumption.

Pete

 

[Levitas]

My turn to enter the discussion...

6pointprime,

How about Wikipedia for a start?

Alkaloid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Aren't the one-eyed cyclops sheep cute?
How do you feel about your wife or girlfriend or sister vaping unknown alkaloids now?

Okay...Your turn.
Show me where you found out that alkaloids are safe.

Pete

Wikipedia? Seriously? Wikipedia is the LEAST likely source to be credible, especially in a scientific argument, because it is USER controlled and USERs may edit the content on the site

Stop fear mongering, you're making yourself look really unintelligent. I for one am in the boat of 'wanting more data' to either support that it is or isn't more dangerous, if at all.

However, the approach you're taking is not only childish, you're making others, as myself, look like asshats because you cannot keep your composure and be respectful and modest.

For the matter speaking, we've no real idea how harmful "normal" vaping is to the human body after prolonged periods of time. This is a forum dedicated to reduce harm by vaping, not to synthesize more harm by starting in-house battles.

Come up with some real negative proof against it. Had I the time, I would purchase some WTA juice and have it shipped off to be tested myself. I personally don't think it's wise to use the stuff if the norm is already working, but that is merely a hunch and I will not down or discourage anyone for being for or using the product. That isn't what the ECF is about.

Now, relax yourself. Perhaps you do indeed need some WTA's...

im a noob at all this stuff...but...my question is...if we could smoke pure tobacco cigs (like they did in olden times)would that be horriible? Isn't it the other 2000-4000 chemicals that are added to smokes that we have the real issue with? just asking...not making a statement.

Sup Brooklyn! Lower East Side in the house yo.

I think a lot of the problems come as a result of the fact that cigarettes require combustion.

This.

Carbon monoxide, tar, along side with the thousands of chemicals produced through combustion seem to be the leading cause of Cancers through smoking. However, Carcinogens can be found in nicotine extract such as WTA's and might also cause Cancer, though, it hasn't been 100% proven at this point or not (WTA's that is).

 

[Dream]

Actually, I bought some for my Dad. He vapes, but he has been unable to stop smoking cigarettes. I'm hoping that WTA eliquid will help him stop smoking.

It's pretty obvious that nobody is going to change your opinion here. That's ok. You have stated your opinion, I have made a purchase...and life goes on.

Wish me luck with Dad!

Thanks,

-Russ

Wishing your dad success in quitting!
Cheers!

 

[kinabaloo]

WTA / tobacco alkaloids :

95% nicotine
2-3% nornicotine
2-3% anatabine
0.3% anabasine

plus a few more at < 0.1%

E-liquid and WTA are 95% the same. Both are tobacco products. The only difference is that nic-only e-liquid removes the other alkaloids for no good reason; just the assumption that nicotine being the most significant by percentage must be the key. It is not the whole story - that's why nic. patches barely work. E-cigs do better because mimic the psycho-behavioural aspects of smking. But for many, they will puff incessantly on the nic only liquids and never be satiated; eventually drawn back to analogs.

Nicotine is the most 'dangerous' thing in it. With WTA, less is more; and that really does reduce any risks with nicotine or PG/VG or flavors.

I have studied this for some years. I have no involvement in any commercial ventures with WTA.

The scare mongering about WTA is exactly the same type of scare mongering about nic-only e-liquid. That anti-science nonsense could imperil the health of millions for who nicotine alone does not work (about half of smokers).

 

[kinabaloo]

In fact, in a typical e-liquid, 20mg/ml say (2% alkaloids), a nic-only liquid and a WTA liquid would be ~ 99.9% the same.

 

[Vapeterry]

Hi, i am really trying to keep vaping, after 1 week of it turning into a full time job; using cigs again: i need the wta, would someone please help me find a supplier? Thanks!

 

[6pointprime]

Hi, i am really trying to keep vaping, after 1 week of it turning into a full time job; using cigs again: i need the wta, would someone please help me find a supplier? Thanks!

If you're only one week deep I'd say start with tuning your kit and/or liquid to make sure it's optimal for you....that takes some time for lots of people. What are you using for batteries atties etc. and what kind of liquid do you have?

 

[Pega]

The argument that people against WTA seem to be conveniently skipping, is that for most people, WTA reduces the amount of vapor we need to inhale to get a fix. We simply don't know the long term effects of inhaling PG, VG, and artificial/organic flavorings into our lungs. From my research, PG and VG are very likely safe, while flavorings could end up killing all vapers. I smoke 3ml of eliquid every day. To me, if I can reduce that amount with WTA, I'm happy.

 

[Pav]

im a noob at all this stuff...but...my question is...if we could smoke pure tobacco cigs (like they did in olden times)would that be horriible? Isn't it the other 2000-4000 chemicals that are added to smokes that we have the real issue with? just asking...not making a statement.

Isn't that what American Spirit cigarettes are? (or is it American Eagle?). As someone else stated, I think the issue is the combustion and those cigarettes have the same warning as regular ones.

Hi, i am really trying to keep vaping, after 1 week of it turning into a full time job; using cigs again: i need the wta, would someone please help me find a supplier? Thanks!

If you're only one week deep I'd say start with tuning your kit and/or liquid to make sure it's optimal for you....that takes some time for lots of people. What are you using for batteries atties etc. and what kind of liquid do you have?

Second that. It took me more than three months of tinkering and trying different things (and completely giving up on ecigs for a brief time) before I switched completely from analogs to vaping. I'm in no position to definitively say WTA is harmful or not, but why not leave it as the last option to try?

The argument that people against WTA seem to be conveniently skipping, is that for most people, WTA reduces the amount of vapor we need to inhale to get a fix. We simply don't know the long term effects of inhaling PG, VG, and artificial/organic flavorings into our lungs. From my research, PG and VG are very likely safe, while flavorings could end up killing all vapers. I smoke 3ml of eliquid every day. To me, if I can reduce that amount with WTA, I'm happy.

Interesting point. Does it really? Is there maybe a placebo effect happening here?

I'm smoke free for almost exactly a year now so vaping nic only juice has worked well for me and I see no reason to add WTAs to my setup. That's just me though.

 

[Stubby]

Lawnman3,

There haven't been ANY studies done on WTA!
There are many studies that concern the PURE NICOTINE that we vape.
Is PURE NICOTINE safe?
No.
Is it really harmful?
From what I understand, it is probably similar to caffeine in low dosages.
Not good for the heart, but not immediately life threatening.

WTA on the other hand....
Absolutely zero medical studies or documentation.
These WTA guys won't even tell us the process they use to extract it from tobacco.
All they ever say is "It contains additional ingredients that have been extracted from the tobacco along with the nicotine."
What are those ingredients you ask?
The WTA guys don't even know themselves.

All the WTA guys have to say is: "Just drink the Kool-Aid. Go ahead, it tastes good!"

Pete

Actually there has been decades of research on WTA out of Sweden. WTA e-liquid will have essentially the same alkaloid mix, if not exactly the same as snus. Of course the safety of snus is well documented. At this point someone would have to show how through some extraordinary means the WTA in e-liquid is not as safe as snus.

The only real concern is how clean the extraction process is. WTA is not available commercially as straight nicotine is and is being done small time. At this point it may be more of how much trust can be put in the manufacturer, but to imply that WTA is inherently dangerous for some unknown reason is simply foolish.

I take issue with the sticky thread http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/general-e-liquid-discussion/230570-wta-e-liquid-issues.html

It is not true that the processing of snus removes more of the harmful toxins than WTA. Nor is it true that "we know nothing about the processing of WTA".

WTA is just the alkaloids from tobacco, nothing more, nothing less (to a high level of purity). Snus processing removes some toxins that's true, and it is indeed known to be (very) considerably safer than smoking. But it contains much more of the original tobacco than WTA; WTA is purer. Everythng in WTA (the alkaloids) is in snus too.

It doesn't make sense to talk of WTA as 'adding' anything; it removes more than snus.

For many, the appeal and hold of smoking is/was about more alkaloids than just nicotine. Looked at individually, and taking into account the mostly tiny quantities involved and none have been pointed to as a toxin in tobacco, nicotine would be the most 'harmful' of the alkaloids in WTA - so that puts it in perspective.

I don't know why ECF would take a stance that seems to caution against what could have a major impact on the success of vaping as a safer alternative for more people. It was, and remains, a folly to equate smoking with just nicotine.

I won't argue much about the snus verses WTA issue except to say that if there is any difference in harm from one to another it would be more an issue of splitting hairs.

The real issue I had with the original article is the 10% figure. That would be considered very low by all I have heard. I believe it has been stated by others who would know better that the amount would be closer to 25% with another 25% that struggle with the issue of WTA. The real number may be closer to 50% overall who would benefit from WTA in some form. For some it would be staying away from cigarettes and for others they may actually be able to cut the chain to there PV for at least a little while.

The need for WTA is significant and a good deal more then is implied.

 

[Pega]

Actually there has been decades of research on WTA out of Sweden. WTA e-liquid will have essentially the same alkaloid mix, if not exactly the same as snus. Of course the safety of snus is well documented. At this point someone would have to show how through some extraordinary means the WTA in e-liquid is not as safe as snus.

The only real concern is how clean the extraction process is. WTA is not available commercially as straight nicotine is and is being done small time. At this point it may be more of how much trust can be put in the manufacturer, but to imply that WTA is inherently dangerous for some unknown reason is simply foolish.



I won't argue much about the snus verses WTA issue except to say that if there is any difference in harm from one to another it would be more an issue of splitting hairs.

Sadly, I don't think it's quite that simple. It's the same argument as with artificial flavourings. What may be safe for ingestion, may not be as safe for inhalation.

 

[Stubby]

Sadly, I don't think it's quite that simple. It's the same argument as with artificial flavourings. What may be safe for ingestion, may not be as safe for inhalation.

Actually it is very different. There is a good deal of evidence that a certain group of flavors are very likely dangerous. It has been very irresponsible of suppliers to add these flavorings to e-liquid. The dangers are well documented and real. Yet these flavors are still available. I haven't seen any policy statements by ECF on that one.

There is no evidence that WTA is inherently more dangerous in any meaningful way then straight nicotine when inhaled, and no reason to think so. I have a distinct impression that ECF is trying to protect some illusion of purity while ignoring the fate of a good many folks for whom e-cigs just do not work in getting them off the smokes.

The whole snus thing is also on the disingenuous side, and this coming from a long time snus user and someone who has been strongly advocating snus for those that are struggling with e-cigs. Snus is not easy to get for many people. I know first hand about that as the I can no longer get snus shipped to my state from the major US supplier, and need I mention the outrageous taxes in WI. I have to get it shipped grey market from Sweden. How soon before the boot comes down on that one. Shipping to the EU is also full of problems. The PACT act has made getting snus in the US a real PITA for many.

 

[phorbin]

Actually it is very different. There is a good deal of evidence that a certain group of flavors are very likely dangerous. It has been very irresponsible of suppliers to add these flavorings to e-liquid. The dangers are well documented and real. Yet these flavors are still available. I haven't seen any policy statements by ECF on that one.

There is no evidence that WTA is inherently more dangerous in any meaningful way then straight nicotine when inhaled, and no reason to think so. I have a distinct impression that ECF is trying to protect some illusion of purity while ignoring the fate of a good many folks for whom e-cigs just do not work in getting them off the smokes.

The whole snus thing is also on the disingenuous side, and this coming from a long time snus user and someone who has been strongly advocating snus for those that are struggling with e-cigs. Snus is not easy to get for many people. I know first hand about that as the I can no longer get snus shipped to my state from the major US supplier, and need I mention the outrageous taxes in WI. I have to get it shipped grey market from Sweden. How soon before the boot comes down on that one. Shipping to the EU is also full of problems. The PACT act has made getting snus in the US a real PITA for many.

At the risk of dragging this thread offtopic, if you are interested in SNUS and are having trouble finding it, try this site:

Northerner. Buy Swedish Snus & Snuff Online. The Healthy Smokeless Tobacco Alternative

Their quantities available to U.S. customers fluctuates with the amount of trouble they are having with import issues, but as of last week they were in good shape.

I started using SNUS recently to fend off a relapse of "analogism" and it has worked quite well for me. I have nothing against WTA, just waiting till I know more about them before I go down that road.

Good luck to you all, however you choose to vape. Not smoking is really the most important part anyway!

 

[Stubby]

At the risk of dragging this thread offtopic, if you are interested in SNUS and are having trouble finding it, try this site:

Northerner. Buy Swedish Snus & Snuff Online. The Healthy Smokeless Tobacco Alternative

Their quantities available to U.S. customers fluctuates with the amount of trouble they are having with import issues, but as of last week they were in good shape.

I started using SNUS recently to fend off a relapse of "analogism" and it has worked quite well for me. I have nothing against WTA, just waiting till I know more about them before I go down that road.

Good luck to you all, however you choose to vape. Not smoking is really the most important part anyway!

I am very familiar with Northerner and have ordered from them pre-PACT act many times. They no longer ship to WI. I go other places for my snus and get it shipped directly from Sweden.

Come on down to the smokeless section and say hello. It's just south of the lounge and a bit north of the buy and sell shops. Kind of on the other side of the tracks.

Smokeless tobacco

 

[pinellaspete]

Adding WTA to ejuice is one really good reason the FDA will regulate and tax vaping products.
It is an unknown ingredient that probably contains carcinogens.
This community will no longer exist once that happens. The cost of all the regulations and licenses that will be required to sell nicotine and nicotine delivery devices will drive all the mom and pops out of business. At that point the only businesses able to comply with the regulations and licenses will be Big Pharma and Big Tobacco.

Just how many forums do you see celebrating the different flavors and options to using Big Tobacco's analogs?

WTA is a very dangerous ingredient. Some people on this thread have said, "I've been using WTA for a couple of weeks and feel great without any side affects!"

Well, you know what...

If you smoked analogs for a couple weeks you could probably say "I've been smoking analogs for a couple of weeks and feel great without any side effects!"

Damage done to your body by smoking analogs takes years, but eventually will cause damage. Nobody has died from smoking analogs for weeks or probably months, but they are still extremely dangerous!

Ya know...

If you really can't do without WTA, smoke a few analogs! Don't ruin the freedom the vaping community is enjoying right now just because you want to add cancer causing ingredients back into your e-liquid.

I can read the headlines now: SOME E-CIG USERS ADDING CANCER CAUSING INGREDIENTS TO THEIR PREVIOUSLY SAFE E-LIQUID BECAUSE IT TASTES GOOD!

If you want WTA, smoke analogs. You can buy them at most corner stores or gas stations.

Pete

 

[AlmightyGod]

Nice spam & unfounded fear mongering.

 

[Nomoreash]

If someone doesn't want to use WTA Liquid then don't, pretty simple one would think. No ones holding a gun to your head so don't point the gun at anyone else. Stop trying to police someone that it could possibly help when you don't have any more valid information about it in eliquid than they do.

It's an individual choice just like anything else and telling someone to go smoke a cig to get his WTA, which is what he's trying to avoid in the first place because you don't want it in your liquid is ludicrous. We're not talking about blanketing the vaping world with it so don't buy it.

 

[mwa102464]

@ pinellaspete Ejuice is already seen as a tobacco product per judge Leons ruling ! Tax is most likely to come whether there is WTA juice or not on this planet. There is many of good educational reads on this here is one for you and there are plenty more. =http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/legislation-news/85294-smoking-everywhere-v-fda-what-case-all-about-why-do-we-need-watch-how-get-up-speed.html

 

[Pega]

Actually it is very different. There is a good deal of evidence that a certain group of flavors are very likely dangerous.

I have found some reference to this, and am very curious why the larger US producers don't proclaim publicly that they are NOT using those ingredients. Do you happen to have some good reading material for this (I don't want to go off topic so a pm would be great).

 

[AlmightyGod]

I have found some reference to this, and am very curious why the larger US producers don't proclaim publicly that they are NOT using those ingredients. Do you happen to have some good reading material for this (I don't want to go off topic so a pm would be great).

Many DO note diacetyl free.