your stement of faith needs revamping.

[Copycat2]

I found it odd that you didn't say that Jesus Christ was God from eternity past before he was born of the virgin. He was and is God from eternity past into eternity future. He is fully man and fully God in all times with the father and Holy Ghost. Maybe I misread something but shouldn't this issue have been looked at before?

 

[Saintscruiser]

This thread confuses me. What was this in reference to, and by whom? Just curious.

 

[eHuman]

I think they were referring to the "statement of faith" sticky. There is so much that could be said about God the Father, Jesus our Savior and the Holy Spirit (how did John put it?)

"And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written."

You kind of have to accept that a sticky note will fall far short of accurately describing God if the whole world could not contain a description Him and His deeds.

 

[Saintscruiser]

I call her Lady T. We are good friends and used to talk on Skype, but her computer connection had to be turned off. She will be back online one day when they can get a connection that is affordable. They live way out on a rural route in Missouri. We still talk by phone. She is truly a remarkable woman, who satan tried to kill 3 times with cancer, beginning at the age of 3. They had to have her little leg amputated under the knee, I think. That's just wrong. Anyway, I told her if she doesn't know karate, she can take off her leg and use it as a weapon. We laughed and laughed! She has a wonderful sense of humor and we laugh a lot. She, before she had to quit work, would drive a semi and could parallel park that sucker. Her husband drove during the day while she slept and she would drive at night. She is on disability now, but still more active than me.

I saw what you were saying and if she could get on the board, she say a very big OOPS! It just wasn't posted correctly. She 200% believes that Jesus was God 100% in heaven, then 100% God and 100% man when He was on earth, then when He sat at the right hand of the Father, still 100% God. So I know she agrees with you and would UPDATE her verbiage. Good point Copy!

 

[mightymen]

I confess with my mouth the Lord Jesus, and I believe in my heart that God has raised him from the dead.

 

[madqatter]

Meh, the "Statement of Faith" here already excludes the majority of Christians around the world, especially Catholic, Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Assyrian Church of the East Christians. For this reason, I'm simply ignoring it.

 

[Saintscruiser]

Meh, the "Statement of Faith" here already excludes the majority of Christians around the world, especially Catholic, Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Assyrian Church of the East Christians. For this reason, I'm simply ignoring it.

I may lose my 'POPULARITY' (ha!) with this post, but I am bound to Jesus to tell the truth. Catholism is listed separately from Protestism. I am a Christian first and denomination 2nd. Any church that believes that Jesus is the Son of God, who left Heaven to preach and teach about His Father and salvation and how to be saved through Him, then died on the cross to cover our sins (our debts, not His) died and rose from the dead plus was seen approximately 500 times, then rose into Heaven to sit at the right hand of the Father, is a Christian church. Our sins are washed away by the shedding of His blood, which is very important!! He was 100% God and 100% man. You have to remember He was born under a virgin birth. Why was that important.....because that way He wasn't born under the original sin by the first Adam. You've heard of the sins of the father fall unto the children. Well His Father is Almighty God. Look up the 10 Commandments in the Catholic Bible and then look at the 10 Commandments in the King James. They are different. I honestly hate to point that out. Am I saying all Catholics are not saved? No, I am not. Scripture states, as Jesus told Nicedemous, you have to be born again. Catholics are told to believe what is written and taught to believe what is written in catachism. From what I have put together from talking to Catholics is that they don't have a 'road to Damascus' meeting of Jesus. They are told to accept Him, but few have really been introduced to Him where their life is completely turned upside down after they do. My 13 year old son said, after I got saved, "Mom, you didn't turn over a new leaf, you planted a whole new tree."

Jesus was our example. He never told anyone to go to someone and confess their sins and that other person can absolve their sin. Only God the Father can absolve their sin, and so did Jesus when He was on earth as He was God. And he never prayed to His mom. He showed us how to pray and worship. He was Almighty God's Ambassador. And I wish I knew where the Scripture was, but it states, "Call no man on earth Father as God is your Father." If someone knows where this Scripture is, I would appreciate it you posted it.Now, do you want to know why He sat down at the right Hand of the Father? I'll use that as another question. I pray I haven't offended anyone.

 

[madqatter]

Catholism is listed separately from Protestism.

Catholics, Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Assyrian Church of the East members are all Christians, as are Protestants. A statement of faith that excludes any of these groups is deficient. All of them are Christians.

Look up the 10 Commandments in the Catholic Bible and then look at the 10 Commandments in the King James. They are different.

This is mistaken.

Deuteronomy 5

6 I am the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

7 Thou shalt have none other gods before me.

8 Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:

9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,

10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

11 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

12 Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee.

13 Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:

14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ..., nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.

15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the Lord thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the Lord thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

16 Honour thy father and thy mother, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

17 Thou shalt not kill.

18 Neither shalt thou commit adultery.

19 Neither shalt thou steal.

20 Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.

21 Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbour's wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ..., or any thing that is thy neighbour's.

Deuteronomy 5
6 I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

7 Thou shalt not have strange gods in my sight.

8 Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any things, that are in heaven above, or that are in the earth beneath, or that abide in the waters under the earth.

9 Thou shalt not adore them, and thou shalt not serve them. For I am the Lord thy God, a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon their children unto the third and fourth generation, to them that hate me,

10 And shewing mercy unto many thousands, to them that love me, and keep my commandments.

11 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for he shall not be unpunished that taketh his name upon a vain thing.

12 Observe the day of the sabbath, to sanctify it, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee.

13 Six days shalt thou labour, and shalt do all thy works.

14 The seventh is the day of the sabbath, that is, the rest of the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not do any work therein, thou nor thy son nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant nor thy maidservant, nor thy ox, nor thy ..., nor any of thy beasts, nor the stranger that is within thy gates: that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest, even as thyself.

15 Remember that thou also didst serve in Egypt, and the Lord thy God brought thee out from thence with a strong hand, and a stretched out arm. Therefore hath he commanded thee that thou shouldst observe the sabbath day.

16 Honour thy father and mother, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee, that thou mayst live a long time, and it may be well with thee in the land, which the Lord thy God will give thee.

17 Thou shalt not kill.

18 Neither shalt thou commit adultery.

19 And thou shalt not steal.

20 Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.

21 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife: nor his house, nor his field, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ..., nor any thing that is his.

These are substantially the same with only minor differences in translation. (As a matter of fact, the King James translators often borrowed wording from the Douay-Rheims translation, which had preceded it.)

Jesus was our example. He never told anyone to go to someone and confess their sins and that other person can absolve their sin.

John 20
21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

James 5
16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed.

Different Christians interpret such passages differently from one another, but they do exist.

And I wish I knew where the Scripture was, but it states, "Call no man on earth Father as God is your Father." If someone knows where this Scripture is, I would appreciate it you posted it.

Matthew 23:9. Other New Testament passages demonstrate that Jesus' apostles did not interpret this in a very literalistic manner; they often called themselves "fathers" and fellow disciples "children." Paul, for example: "For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel." John, similarly: "I am writing to you, little children, because your sins are forgiven for his name's sake."

 

[Saintscruiser]

"For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel." John, similarly: "I am writing to you, little children, because your sins are forgiven for his name's sake.]



Of course sins are forgiven in Jesus' name. But you can't absolve someone's sin. Only God can do that. Mad, I would like to know what Scripture the above is. You have me hopping tonight. Trying to get all duckies in a row before I say something further. I even have been perusing Jewish sites. So I say to that COOL!

 

[Saintscruiser]

I have found a few things that I found very interesting..

1) Judaism teaches that our relationship to our parents is akin to our relationship to God, because our parents created us. Disrespect of our parents is a direct insult to God.

2) The Ten Commandments in Hebrew is called Aseret ha-D'vareem, meaning the 10 Things. Rabbi's say that the left tablet concerns man's relationship with God. The right tablet concerns man's relationship with other people. (That is absolutely right! It was there the whole time and I didn't put it together!)

You can't discount the Hebrew Torah because God specifically brought them out of Egypt. The Jews are the chosen race. (I will bless those that bless you, and I will curse those who curse you.') He was their God first! I have found that I need to do some reading to make sure what I post is truth. I am accountable to Almighty God for what I post. I will probably start a new thread on that issue. But, Mad, don't forget I need that Scripture from you. It excites me that you are searching God's Holy Word for answers! It's like 'inquiring minds want to know!'

 

[riseabovethestorm]

Whenever anyone asks me to explain what I believe, I usually just either recite or reference them to the Nicene Creed (or Apostle's Creed).

 

[Seabrook]

Well, here's my input on it from what I understand from the Word.


Earthly fathers can be called “Father” because we are referring to him as our head of family and not in the spiritual/holy manner.

God Himself said “Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you.” (Exodus 20:12)

In reading Matt. 23:1-12, Jesus is denouncing the Jewish scribes and Pharisees for their hypocrisy in elevating themselves above others with the titles “teacher and “master.” The Jewish teachers believed that they were above all others, so they wished to be called “father” and “master” to be worshiped as the truth givers, thus cutting God out of the picture. Jesus was trying to instruct them that the source of all life and trust was God and that they were devaluating God of His proper title and honor.

Roman Catholics call their priests “father” and their pope “the holy father.” Dangerous stuff here, because that is very clearly unbiblical. They are doing exactly what Jesus warned the Jewish scribes and Pharisees against doing! Only God is worthy of the title of “Father” in a spiritual manner. Priests and popes cannot forgive sins ... only God can do that through the blood of Jesus.

Regarding the pope’s title of the “holy father” … a huge blasphemy because only God is holy. Christians are not holy on earth … not until we are changed and have left all sin behind us and are in Heaven where no sin can enter. Until that time, born again Christians’ proper titles (in the spiritual sense), are ambassadors of Christ and are considered the righteousness of God. (2 Corinth, 5:20-21)

Calling our earthly father “Father,” is permissible because we are clearly not elevating him above our Heavenly Father, and it is not in a spiritual sense, but in a title of respect. Our earthly father is worthy of honor as God makes it crystal clear in his command to honor our father and mother in Ex. 20:12.

 

[Saintscruiser]

Great post Sea. You are quite knowledgeable of Scripture. I'm bad about saying Scripture and having to look it up later. What's funny is that when I verbally quote Scripture, it's always in King James. I now use a New King James version. I have fibromyalgia and have THE FOG.....meaning it's difficult to remember where Scriptures are, but I KNOW I've read it and am confident that what I'm saying is correct.

I understand that the statues of noted people in the past standing on its own does not denote graven images. But when you pray to anyone or anything except Almighty God, in Jesus' Name, you've stepped over the line. If you bow to a statue on a cross upon entering a church, you've stepped over the line. Jesus never said to pray to His mom. You don't know how thankful I am that God didn't choose me to be Jesus' mother. I couldn't have done it. To Whom did Jesus pray to? Look to the Lord's Prayer. He was the teacher of this. One thing you have to remember is that Christianity didn't start on earth until Jesus rose from the grave, otherwise, He would have been listed in a long line of dead gods......such as Buddha, Mohammed, Confucious, Joseph Smith, etc. (The Jews are awaiting the arrival of their Messiah. They will meet Him face to face at the 2nd Coming.) The difference is that He ROSE FROM THE GRAVE (HALLELUJAH!). He was seen over 500 times after His death and it was documented not only in Scriptures, but by other historians of the day. Our God is a Living God! His Word is true...."for I am a jealous God." That is straight forward and quite clear. I would be afraid to step over that line, and I am not in fear of God. I am in awe, wonder, worship......He's my best friend. He is everything to me. But, I know where the line in the sand is, and that line is one line I will not cross. My heroine is that girl in the library at Columbine school who answered the question of: "Are there any Christians here?" She stood up and said , "Yes." She was shot and killed on the spot. She is one I pray I will be as brave as.

 

[Seabrook]

Thank you SC. Yes, I used to read the Bible, but now that we are in the last days, I like to really sink my teeth into it more than I used to. I just finished the Bible last night for the year except for the Psalms. I saved them for last so I can take my time and enjoy the charisma and grace in them. So now I have all of December to spend in the Psalms. I can see why God will raise David up to rule as King during the Millennium. (Jer. 30:9; Ezek. 37:34-35)

I had to giggle a little when I read that you are glad God didn't choose you to be Jesus' mother. You ought to read Proverbs 31. LOL, I would have found it tough being the daughter-in-law of King Lemuel’s mother. Wow, if a woman like she described existed, I doubt she’d live to be 40 due to exhaustion. I’m so spoiled with creature comforts. I don’t even make a salad without my food processor. We have a lot to be thankful for in the age we live in.

Sorry to hear about your fibromyalgia. I don’t know too much about it, but I’ve read that can be quite painful. Maybe the next time you see your doctor, you could have her check your vitamin D (which is actually a hormone) and magnesium levels. I’ll remember you in my prayers.

 

[Saintscruiser]

Oh yes.....I know Proverbs 31 very well! After I read it, I'm out of breath! HA! I also suffer from chronic fatigue and other junk. My list of 'Can'ts' is longer than my list of 'Cans.' However, my most powerful 'can' outweighs the bigest of my 'can'ts!' I pray to a Mighty God who can do anything!! I can, in all truth confess that I've never read the Bible all of the way through. The New Testament is a different story. My hat is off to you, Sea!

King David ruling will be awesome, won't it??? Psalms flows like poetry, but I have to giggle sometimes. In one Psalm, he is praising and worshiping God, and the next, he sounds like he's having a nervous breakdown. It's almost like he is bi-polar. But, he lays his sins over and over at the feet of God for all of us to read. He was an adulterer, a murderer, a liar, etc. Why did God say that David was a man after His own heart? Because David was a repentent man. When he realized he had sinned against God, he was flat on the floor, or his knees, begging for God's forgiveness and meaning every word of what he was saying. Notice, he never committed adultry again. When his son died upon birth, he knew why. There is always a price for sin, even though you think you've gotten away with it. It could be within a week, a year, or ten years. God won't take away the price, but He will walk through it with you. You put your hand in the fire, you get burned. He will be there while you heal, every step of the way. If you had asked Him about putting your hand in the fire, he would have told you not to do that. When you leave Him out of a decision, there will always be a repercussion. I talk from my own experience, and it almost destroyed me. The Lord was faithful to help me through it. Our God is an awesome God!

 

[Seabrook]

Thank you SC. The Bible is kind of like a good movie ... it's always better the next time you watch it. I keep finding new ways of looking at things or things I have forgotten or even missed. My very favorite book is Daniel.

Yes, the OT takes a lot of prayer to get through. Everyone says it’s so bloody and brutal, but what we have to understand is that God had to make Earth habitable for His children and His perfect, divine plan for us. Because of the fallen angels, there were Nephilim, and then after the flood, they were back in the new beginning also. Well those Nephilim spread into several tribes of giants like the Anakim, Emim, Horites, Nephilim, Avvites, Rephaim, Zanzummim, Amorites and the different giant clans in Shaveh-Kiriathaim. And scripture tells us that a lot of those giants were cannibals.8-o (Num. 13:32)

And most worshiped the Sun and false gods like Ashterah, Molech, Baal, Ashtoreth, Amon, Bel, Chemoth, Temmuz, Dagon, Zeus, Hermes, Diana, Castor, and Pollux. And if that isn’t bad enough, they sacrificed their babies and children by throwing them into fire and stabbing them on altars, dismembering them, etc. So heinous!

People say the killing of children wasn't right, but they were acculturated into their people's ways, so they would have followed in their parents' footsteps since that's all they knew. I'm sure God has taken those children to Himself where they are safe from treacherous and idolatrous ways.

So, that’s why so many battles occurred where tribes and cities were annihilated … so God’s Plan could unfold to be understood by his children who followed. When I keep that in mind, I'm okay with it and will continue to read it.

 

[madqatter]

Whenever anyone asks me to explain what I believe, I usually just either recite or reference them to the Nicene Creed (or Apostle's Creed).

This makes more sense, as it would represent the faith of almost all traditional Christians, whether Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, etc. I really don't understand the attempt to exclude fellow Christians from a forum called "Christian Vapers." If the forum is intended only for Protestants, just call it "Protestant Vapers."

Roman Catholics call their priests “father” and their pope “the holy father.” Dangerous stuff here, because that is very clearly unbiblical.

Inasmuch as it's consistent with apostolic practice (cf. the previously cited examples of Paul and John), it doesn't make much sense to call the practice "unbiblical." You're welcome to say it doesn't fit with your own interpretation of scripture, but scripture is interpreted differently by other Christians.

Regardless, "Christian Vapers" does not seem an appropriate space for doctrinal arguments among fellow Christians. It seems to me that it should be a place for mutual encouragement.

If you bow to a statue on a cross upon entering a church, you've stepped over the line.

Biblical heroes frequently bowed in respect to creatures, including angels (cf. Genesis 19:1-3, no rebuke from angels), prophets (cf. 1Kings 18:7-8, no rebuke from Elijah), and the ark of the covenant (which included representational statuary; cf. Joshua 7:6-8, no rebuke to Joshua) without "stepping over the line." Again, you're welcome to say it doesn't fit with your own interpretation of scripture, but scripture is interpreted differently by other Christians.

Jesus never said to pray to His mom.

Neither did Jesus forbid his followers to ask fellow believers to pray for them. In the New Testament, asking for fellow believers' prayers is common and praying for others is encouraged.

 

[Seabrook]

Inasmuch as it's consistent with apostolic practice (cf. the previously cited examples of Paul and John), it doesn't make much sense to call the practice "unbiblical." You're welcome to say it doesn't fit with your own interpretation of scripture, but scripture is interpreted differently by other Christians.

Regardless, "Christian Vapers" does not seem an appropriate space for doctrinal arguments among fellow Christians. It seems to me that it should be a place for mutual encouragement.

It seems to me that if something goes against biblical instruction, it does indeed make sense to call the practice “unbiblical.” Some want to ignore what Scripture plainly states, and invent ways to "harmonize" the Bible with their modern preferences. I, OTOH, am a Bible reading and believing literalist, and that is how I chose my church, by a denomination taking the bible readings literal and as the inspired word of God.

Maybe you should go back and read the posts again … I think you may have mistunderstood. I don’t see any arguments at all here in this forum.

I was answering a previous question about the interpretation of father in pointing out (according to scripture) there is an earthly father and a spiritual father. I did not answer that Q of my own knowledge … I answered by what scripture reads.

I have not yet seen any arguments on the Christian Vapers forum. I have seen questions asked and questions answered, but I have not seen any doctrinal arguments yet.

That’s okay madqatter … it’s easy to misunderstand when reading some posts.

 

[Seabrook]

Neither did Jesus forbid his followers to ask fellow believers to pray for them. In the New Testament, asking for fellow believers' prayers is common and praying for others is encouraged.

An excellent point Mad! However, you mistunderstood SC's post. She did not say Jesus never said to pray for His mom, she said: Jesus never said to pray to His mom ... a difference in meaning.

 

[madqatter]

It seems to me that if something goes against biblical instruction

In this case, they're not going "against biblical instruction." In the New Testament, the apostles referred to themselves as fathers to their fellow believers, and many Christians have continued the apostolic practice of calling their elders and overseers (presbyteroi & episkopoi) fathers. You may not choose to practice it, but the practice does have apostolic and scriptural precedent.

{SC} did not say Jesus never said to pray for His mom, she said: Jesus never said to pray to His mom ... a difference in meaning.

I think you misunderstood my post. Most Christians ask fellow believers to pray to God for them, and most of these Christians occasionally ask Jesus' mother (among many other believers) to pray to God for them. Asking other people to pray for you is a practice consistent with and not contrary to the teaching of the New Testament. I am not aware of any apostolic writing which teaches Christians never to ask for prayers from fellow believers.

Perhaps you are being tripped up by the word "pray." Nowadays many people think of "prayer" only as a request one makes to God, but in older English usage it referred to any request made to anyone. A quick perusal of an older biblical translation, such as the King James Version, bears this out. In 2 Corinthians 5:20, for example, the KJV has Paul saying: "we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God." Paul prays to the Corinthians, on Christ's behalf, that they will be reconciled to God; more recent translations render the same phrase "we beseech you," "we beg you," "we ask you," "we implore you," etc. All of these mean the same thing: Paul prays to the Corinthians = Paul asks the Corinthians. Similarly, Abram prays to Lot ("Abram said unto Lot, Let there be no strife, I pray thee, between me and thee"), Lot prays to the people of Sodom ("I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly"), Esau prays to Jacob ("Feed me, I pray thee, with that same red pottage"), etc. To pray simply means to ask, to make a request: "I pray you, do pass the salt, for the soup is bland." If you ask a brother to pray to God for you, you are praying to your brother to pray to God for you.