CASAA analysis of what will really happen under ecig deeming

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bigdancehawk

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“The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government - lest it come to dominate our lives and interests.”
Patrick Henry

How far have we departed from that principle?
 

Kent C

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"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
— Benjamin Franklin

"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent."
—Thomas Jefferson

"Enlighten the people, generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like spirits at the dawn of day."
—Thomas Jefferson

"When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."
—Thomas Jefferson

"Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny."
—Thomas Jefferson

"Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action."
—George Washington
 

Kent C

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Madison: "If men were angels..." in context: (Federalist Papers #51)

[T]he great security against a gradual concentration of the several powers in the same department, consists in giving to those who administer each department the necessary constitutional means and personal motives to resist encroachments of the others. The provision for defence must in this, as in all other cases, be made commensurate to the danger of attack. Ambition must be made to counteract ambition. The interest of the man must be connected with the constitutional rights of the place. It may be a reflection on human nature, that such devices should be necessary to control the abuses of government. But what is government itself, but the greatest of all reflections on human nature? If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself. A dependence on the people is, no doubt, the primary control on the government; but experience has taught mankind the necessity of auxiliary precautions. ([1788] n.d., 337)

"In questions of power, then, let no more be heard of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution." --Thomas Jefferson: Draft, Kentucky Res., 1798.

"The equal rights of man and the happiness of every individual are now acknowledged to be the only legitimate objects of government." --Thomas Jefferson to M. Coray, 1823.

Hmmm... no mention of greatest good or public health.....
 

AndriaD

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And it looks like you got similar results - even more taxes and regulation. Our 'long train of abuses and usurpations' even just as smokers and vapers, make the wrongs done by George III look like nitpicking. (although in the context of the time, they weren't :- )

But very similar abuses -- the colonists were essentially objecting to being treated as non-citizens -- they had no representation in consideration of the taxes being levied on them. Smokers, and now vapers, are also being treated as non-citizens; first, by very clearly marking us out of the herd as "undesirable", treating us basically as chattels to be forced here or there away from the rest of the herd; attempts to shame us merely for our choice to smoke (and now, to vape); with the unconscionable tobacco taxes; and now with whatever nefarious plans they have for vapers, which I'm quite sure will also include unconscionable taxes, as so many states are already showing.

I'm a firm believer in karma, and tobacco ConTroll has a great deal to answer for. I'd sure like to be there to see their chickens coming home to roost.

Andria
 

bigdancehawk

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But very similar abuses -- the colonists were essentially objecting to being treated as non-citizens -- they had no representation in consideration of the taxes being levied on them. Smokers, and now vapers, are also being treated as non-citizens; first, by very clearly marking us out of the herd as "undesirable", treating us basically as chattels to be forced here or there away from the rest of the herd; attempts to shame us merely for our choice to smoke (and now, to vape); with the unconscionable tobacco taxes; and now with whatever nefarious plans they have for vapers, which I'm quite sure will also include unconscionable taxes, as so many states are already showing.

I'm a firm believer in karma, and tobacco ConTroll has a great deal to answer for. I'd sure like to be there to see their chickens coming home to roost.

Andria
We've seen almost all of this before:
1. Fund studies with pre-determined outcomes
2. Distort and misrepresent the relevant science
3. Flood the media with ad-hominem attacks on those who challenge your tactics
4. Terrify people with grossly exaggerated dangers of second-hand exposure
5. Disseminate press releases with alarmist headlines
6. Grant millions to "public health" groups to help spread the propaganda
7. Tax the hell out of the products
8. Demonize manufacturers (Sen. Jay Rockefeller: "I'm ashamed of you," the West Virginia Democrat told e-cigarette makers. "I don't know how you go to sleep at night.…You're what's wrong with this country.")
9. Demonize, shame and isolate users; characterize them as drug addicts
10. Indoctrinate school children
11. Portray manufacturers and users as evildoers posing an imminent danger to The Cheeeeldrin
12. Lobby for legislation at all levels of government
13. Encourage legislators to grand-stand about their devotion to saving The Cheeeeldrin
14. Infiltrate regulatory agencies with ANTZ
15. Make a huge fuss over a few isolated incidents
16. Block consumers from having an actual voice in drafting regulations
17. Scheme strategy in closed groups, blocking input from any possible dissenters

I've probably missed some.
 
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pennysmalls

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Since I'm much older than most, I've not had to stock up as much;.....but IF I do manage to live longer than my "stash" then I will definitely look around for a "supplier". :)

P.S. I've already selected my "cell" decor......

Wouldn't it be a hoot if all vapers across the country turned themselves in when all this goes into affect...and refused to pay any fines. What would they do with all of us lol? Where would they put us? And then if we insisted that they couldn't release us because we would definitely re offend immediately and still not pay....then what? I'm ready to decorate my cell for the cause. :D
 

bigdancehawk

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Hmmm... no mention of greatest good or public health.....
Nope. To repeat what I posted in Anti-THRlies:
We are engaged in an ongoing process of sacrificing our individual liberty to the rule of a vast, un-elected bureaucracy, and we are increasingly made the subjects of its arbitrary acts.
 

AndriaD

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Which shows how different ours was - it took 150 years for us... them only a few. People like to say they were the same but they were not. Still - were it not for the French, there likely wouldn't have been a victory at Yorktown - maybe later, but maybe not at all.

The money they provided to assist us, was one of the causes of their own state bankruptcy. Which was only one factor in their revolution; mostly it was a situation much like our own, except even worse -- a 1% elite who didn't give 2 squats for the other 99%, whether they ate, or lived, or died, and a 99% who were ...... off and desperate enough to start a real uprising.

It's coming. Thank god for the 2nd amendment, at least in those states that haven't essentially castrated it. (looking at you, NY and CA).

Andria
 

AndriaD

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I don't see anything you missed.

It's all straight from the Tobacco Control game plan instituted decades ago...
Rampant Antismoking Signifies Grave Danger

And now they're coming for us.

And it's high time for us to respond with the ol HELL NO WE WON'T GO or its modern equivalent, because I refuse to continue supporting Tobaco ConTroll when I'm not even smoking anymore!!! I didn't even want to support it when I did smoke, but since i was buying the highly-taxed product used to support it, there wasn't much I could do about it. Now I no longer buy those highly-taxed products, and I flatly refuse to be corralled into using their closed-system, highly-taxed (eventually) BS.

It's time to call them out and show them for the criminals they are, and refuse to take it anymore. Rebuildables, nic in the freezer, and political action are our tools.

Andria
 

sofarsogood

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FDA encourages vapers to become either offenders since will have to buy products from black markets or craftsmen since will have to build their own stuff. Which category do you belong to? :D

CASAA analysis of what will really happen under ecig deeming
I followed the link to a 50 page pdf which is the written comment submitted to OMB in the current round. I read it, all of it, slowly and carefully. I strongly recommend everyone who hangs around this part of the forum to bite the bullet and do the same. If you pay those dues your ability to defend vaping will be improved. I like making my case with common sense. There is lots of that in the document including points that were new to me. I'm also encouraged that the attempt to ban the products the way FDA intends to try is very likely to create a mess but not much else. I'm biased of course but I think the document does an adequate job of demolishing the FDA approach. The document recommends that the only sensible choice for OMB is to delay implementig a rule until it's actual regulation and not an outright ban. So, go read it--please.
 

bigdancehawk

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We and smokers who might benefit from e-cigarettes, who are the most devastatingly affected by the actions of the FDA, are not represented there. Wasn't that what brought about the Revolution? When I wrote my comments on the deeming regulation, I felt like a member of the First Continental Congress, petitioning George III and expecting similar results.
 

AndriaD

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7. Tax the hell out of the products

This is the one that is completely, entirely, and absolutely illogical. They want us to quit doing the thing, and they're spending all this other effort and money on "helping" us see the error of our ways.

So now... we find a way to actually quit doing the evil thing.

AND THEY'RE FREAKING OUT ABOUT IT! Because if we quit... THEY WON'T GET ALL THAT TAX MONEY ON THE EVIL THING WE'RE NOT DOING ANYMORE!!!!!

So I say, they have created their own dilemma, and this is exactly why we need to fight them tooth and nail. Or, GET RID OF THEM ENTIRELY.

Andria
 

DC2

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I followed the link to a 50 page pdf which is the written comment submitted to OMB in the current round. I read it, all of it, slowly and carefully. I strongly recommend everyone who hangs around this part of the forum to bite the bullet and do the same.
I'm not done reading it yet, but so far there is nothing I wasn't aware of.
But a link to that would be the perfect answer for someone looking for a summary of what is going on.

And we get those requests all the time, so this is perfect!
:thumb:

This part really sums it up nicely...
CASAA: CASAA Report to OMB/OIRA dated December 15, 2015
Properly interpreting what is being proposed
It is possible to envision genuinely beneficial regulation of e-cigarettes by the federal government or other authorities. Indeed, FDA’s proposed deeming of e-cigarettes is widely interpreted among officials and members of the public who are vaguely familiar with the proposal as a mere assertion of authority that allows beneficial regulations to be created. The reality is that due to the details of the TCA, compounded by FDA’s procedures for regulating tobacco products, the deeming itself is actually a massive policy intervention that largely forecloses the possibility of genuinely beneficial regulation. It is effectively a blanket ban of the products that will replace the high-quality legal market that currently exists with unregulatable alternative markets (discussed below). It needs to be evaluated with this in mind.

Three basic facts define any legitimate discussion of the proposed FDA rule:
1.The proposed rule is a de facto ban on an entire product category, and not regulation in any normal sense of the word. FDA has failed to analyze the rule in the context of the real impacts, analyze the real impacts, or even to clearly state that this is what the rule would do.

2.The potential (gross) benefits of this rule are extremely low. There is nothing close to a compelling public need for this rule. FDA has failed to provide convincing justification -- either scientific evidence or policy analysis -- that there is a problem that the proposed rule could solve.

3.The immediate effects of the rule create enormous costs, and the secondary effects will probably be greater still. FDA has failed to conduct anything that could be considered a remotely legitimate cost-benefit analysis.

A ban, not real regulation
The most important thing to understand about this proposed rule is that it is not actually a regulation in any normal sense of the word. It does not contain manufacturing, product, or performance standards that producers can endeavor to meet. It does not contain technical details that might be the subject of debate or compromise. It does not impose rules designed to fix problems related to product quality, public health and safety, or other legitimate regulatory concerns. The real implications of this rule, quite contrary to what FDA has implied it will do, are driven by the following three characteristics. For all practical purposes these are the only factors that really matter for the proposed deeming; details of any subsequent rulemaking under the deeming (short of the massive and unlikely alteration of current FDA procedures addressed below) will have relatively trivial impact.

a) Almost all the impact of the regulation comes merely from the act of deeming.The deeming would subject e-cigarettes to the same bans and approvals processes that exist for cigarettes and smokeless tobacco. There are no details of the proposed rule itself that offer any room for consequential amendments or compromise on this point. Normal regulations involve room for compromise over quantities or other details, but there are no such details in this case.

b) The details of the TCA include a provision that any products not on the market as of February 15, 2007 must go through an approval process as a new product. Since there is currently no e-cigarette product sufficiently similar to any product that existed on that grandfather date, this means that the “regulation” is a ban of all existing e-cigarette products, with the theoretical option that they can secure approval as a “new” product under the premarket tobacco application (PMTA) process . This is fundamentally different from the imposition of a real regulatory standard that manufacturers could bring their products into compliance with. There is no such option for compliance. (It has been suggested that this date be changed for e-cigarettes, though FDA’s position is that it is immutable; in any case, merely changing the grandfather date would provide very limited reduction in the net harms caused by this rule, as noted below.)

c) The FDA approval processes for tobacco products is, by design and as demonstrated in practice, arbitrary and primarily intended to prevent new products from being approved. The approval processes -- for new products (PMTA), to be able to make health-related claims about products (the “modified risk tobacco product” (MRTP) process), and even to be able to make minor changes in existing products (the “substantial equivalence” (SE) process) -- are extremely expensive and onerous. Applications are usually rejected or denied by FDA, often for reasons that the applicant had no way of anticipating. Whatever one might think of imposing such a process to impede innovations in highly risky combustible tobacco products, the function of these processes must be seen for what they are: creeping prohibition-by-paperwork under the guise of regulation. FDA provides no standards for any of these processes, such that if a product meets them, the manufacturer can expect the application will be approved. Thus, every application is not just expensive, but highly uncertain, and decisions are ultimately arbitrary.

While there are not clear standards for what an application should contain, the FDA “guidance” documents for applications for products they currently regulate calls for information similar to that required for pharmaceutical product applications. This alone makes the process extremely expensive, to say nothing of being a very bad fit for a product that is freely chosen by consumers based on many characteristics, not merely because of medicinal efficacy. This misfit presumably contributes to there being no actual requirements for what a manufacturer must demonstrate in an application, as there are with pharmaceuticals. This makes the expensive process also utterly uncertain. It thus can only be considered feasible for a product that is expected to generate tens of millions of dollars in revenue per SKU. It is not conceivable that there will be serious new product applications for more than about 25 e-cigarette products (these are FDA’s own estimates, which seem plausible). Probably only the major tobacco companies could navigate this regulatory maze, and even some in that sector have told us that the burden appears to be insurmountable even for them. Therefore, the net effect of the proposed regulations will be to permanently ban on the order of 99.99% of the roughly 100,000 e-cigarette products on the market today.

These three observations mean that the proposed deeming contains no room for reasonable compromise. Regulations are normally assessed, debated, and compromised upon based on their details. But these three factors mean that a mere one-sentence version of the proposed rule (“E-cigarettes are tobacco products and subject to FDA tobacco product regulation.”) would contain basically all the payload.

SEARCH: CASAA deeming
 

Jman8

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I see it as we are all black market operators.

You stockpile or do craft work, and if doing it only for your purposes, then there is distinction to be made between whatever that (selfish) act is and what the market will entail. But you distribute/share ANY of what you stockpile with ANYONE (family, friends) and you just done participated in the black market. So, all these vapers who claim to be giving, generous, helpful people will have to do a complete 180 and say only me matters and to heck with the rest of you (includes spouses, family and friends). I think it is very likely that for a period of time (like 1 to 11 months) that many vapers do things on the down low and by that I mean only fending for one's self. But once it gets to be the norm, I think it could, very easily transform into a very visible gray market, or as visible as the notion that somewhere in the world someone might just be driving over the currently posted speed limit, aka breaking the law.
 

Kent C

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was one of the causes of their own state bankruptcy. Which was only one factor in their revolution

Much of the support was more from the revolutionaries, Lafayette most notably, but yeah, money came from the government of course. However, one could make a pretty good argument that the support was primarily against Great Britain rather than for the colonies. We did benefit - there is no doubt.
 
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