CASAA analysis of what will really happen under ecig deeming

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AndriaD

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Much of the support was more from the revolutionaries, Lafayette most notably, but yeah, money came from the government of course. However, one could make a pretty good argument that the support was primarily against Great Britain rather than for the colonies. We did benefit - there is no doubt.

Absolutely true -- the principles of our revolution were absolutely opposite to everything the French monarchy stood for -- but any opportunity to give the Brits a blackeye couldn't be passed up by any self-respecting Frenchman. :D The lambasting Franklin received in parliament's cockpit probably stood him in very good stead, in his embassy to France. :D Anyone the Brits hated, the French were sure to LOVE! Plus the French had a fascination with the American "wilderness," probably since the earliest fur trappers, and Franklin was savvy enough to play up to that, playing the "barbarian" for them with his coonskin cap. :D I hear he was quite the darling of the French ladies. :D

Andria
 

Kent C

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LaFayette and Jefferson - friends for life:

Lafayette's memoirs include a description of the visit: "Mr. Jefferson received me with strong emotion. I found him much aged, without doubt, after a separation of thirty-five years, but bearing marvelously well under his eighty one years of age, in full possession of all the vigor of his mind and heart which he has consecrated to the building of a good and fine university.... Today [November 8] we visited this beautiful institution which occupies the honored old age of our illustrious friend. His daughter Mrs. Randolph lives with him; he is surrounded by a large family and his house is admirably located. We attended a public banquet in Charlottesville, MM. Jefferson and Madison were with us; the answer which Mr. Jefferson had read to the toast in his honor brought tears to everybody's eyes."[12] It was in this toast that Jefferson summarized Lafayette's contributions to the American Revolution: "When I was stationed in his country for the purpose of cementing its friendship with ours, and of advancing our mutual interests, this friend of both, was my most powerful auxiliary and advocate. He made our cause his own, as in truth it was that of his native country also. His influence and connections there were great. All doors of all departments were open to him at all times. In truth, I only held the nail, he drove it." After the visit, the two friends continued their correspondence.

https://www.monticello.org/site/jefferson/marquis-de-lafayette

Jefferson died at the age of 83.
 

bigdancehawk

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We and smokers who might benefit from e-cigarettes, who are the most devastatingly affected by the actions of the FDA, are not represented there. Wasn't that what brought about the Revolution? When I wrote my comments on the deeming regulation, I felt like a member of the First Continental Congress, petitioning George III and expecting similar results.
 

Kent C

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I felt like a member of the First Continental Congress, petitioning George III and expecting similar results

And it looks like you got similar results - even more taxes and regulation. Our 'long train of abuses and usurpations' even just as smokers and vapers, make the wrongs done by George III look like nitpicking. (although in the context of the time, they weren't :- )
 

AndriaD

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And it looks like you got similar results - even more taxes and regulation. Our 'long train of abuses and usurpations' even just as smokers and vapers, make the wrongs done by George III look like nitpicking. (although in the context of the time, they weren't :- )

But very similar abuses -- the colonists were essentially objecting to being treated as non-citizens -- they had no representation in consideration of the taxes being levied on them. Smokers, and now vapers, are also being treated as non-citizens; first, by very clearly marking us out of the herd as "undesirable", treating us basically as chattels to be forced here or there away from the rest of the herd; attempts to shame us merely for our choice to smoke (and now, to vape); with the unconscionable tobacco taxes; and now with whatever nefarious plans they have for vapers, which I'm quite sure will also include unconscionable taxes, as so many states are already showing.

I'm a firm believer in karma, and tobacco ConTroll has a great deal to answer for. I'd sure like to be there to see their chickens coming home to roost.

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bigdancehawk

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But very similar abuses -- the colonists were essentially objecting to being treated as non-citizens -- they had no representation in consideration of the taxes being levied on them. Smokers, and now vapers, are also being treated as non-citizens; first, by very clearly marking us out of the herd as "undesirable", treating us basically as chattels to be forced here or there away from the rest of the herd; attempts to shame us merely for our choice to smoke (and now, to vape); with the unconscionable tobacco taxes; and now with whatever nefarious plans they have for vapers, which I'm quite sure will also include unconscionable taxes, as so many states are already showing.

I'm a firm believer in karma, and tobacco ConTroll has a great deal to answer for. I'd sure like to be there to see their chickens coming home to roost.

Andria
We've seen almost all of this before:
1. Fund studies with pre-determined outcomes
2. Distort and misrepresent the relevant science
3. Flood the media with ad-hominem attacks on those who challenge your tactics
4. Terrify people with grossly exaggerated dangers of second-hand exposure
5. Disseminate press releases with alarmist headlines
6. Grant millions to "public health" groups to help spread the propaganda
7. Tax the hell out of the products
8. Demonize manufacturers (Sen. Jay Rockefeller: "I'm ashamed of you," the West Virginia Democrat told e-cigarette makers. "I don't know how you go to sleep at night.…You're what's wrong with this country.")
9. Demonize, shame and isolate users; characterize them as drug addicts
10. Indoctrinate school children
11. Portray manufacturers and users as evildoers posing an imminent danger to The Cheeeeldrin
12. Lobby for legislation at all levels of government
13. Encourage legislators to grand-stand about their devotion to saving The Cheeeeldrin
14. Infiltrate regulatory agencies with ANTZ
15. Make a huge fuss over a few isolated incidents
16. Block consumers from having an actual voice in drafting regulations
17. Scheme strategy in closed groups, blocking input from any possible dissenters

I've probably missed some.
 
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AndriaD

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7. Tax the hell out of the products

This is the one that is completely, entirely, and absolutely illogical. They want us to quit doing the thing, and they're spending all this other effort and money on "helping" us see the error of our ways.

So now... we find a way to actually quit doing the evil thing.

AND THEY'RE FREAKING OUT ABOUT IT! Because if we quit... THEY WON'T GET ALL THAT TAX MONEY ON THE EVIL THING WE'RE NOT DOING ANYMORE!!!!!

So I say, they have created their own dilemma, and this is exactly why we need to fight them tooth and nail. Or, GET RID OF THEM ENTIRELY.

Andria
 

DC2

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We've seen almost all of this before:
1. Fund studies with pre-determined outcomes
2. Distort and misrepresent the relevant science
3. Flood the media with ad-hominem attacks on those who challenge your tactics
4. Terrify people with grossly exaggerated dangers of second-hand exposure
5. Disseminate press releases with alarmist headlines
6. Grant millions to "public health" groups to help spread the propaganda
7. Tax the hell out of the products
8. Demonize manufacturers (Sen. Jay Rockefeller: "I'm ashamed of you," the West Virginia Democrat told e-cigarette makers. "I don't know how you go to sleep at night.…You're what's wrong with this country.")
9. Demonize, shame and isolate users; characterize them as drug addicts
10. Indoctrinate school children
11. Portray manufacturers and users as evildoers posing an imminent danger to The Cheeeeldrin
12. Lobby for legislation at all levels of government
13. Encourage legislators to grand-stand about their devotion to saving The Cheeeeldrin
14. Infiltrate regulatory agencies with ANTZ
15. Make a huge fuss over a few isolated incidents
16. Block consumers from having an actual voice in drafting regulations
17. Scheme strategy in closed groups, blocking input from any possible dissenters

I've probably missed some.
I don't see anything you missed.

It's all straight from the Tobacco Control game plan instituted decades ago...
Rampant Antismoking Signifies Grave Danger

And now they're coming for us.
 

AndriaD

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I don't see anything you missed.

It's all straight from the Tobacco Control game plan instituted decades ago...
Rampant Antismoking Signifies Grave Danger

And now they're coming for us.

And it's high time for us to respond with the ol HELL NO WE WON'T GO or its modern equivalent, because I refuse to continue supporting Tobaco ConTroll when I'm not even smoking anymore!!! I didn't even want to support it when I did smoke, but since i was buying the highly-taxed product used to support it, there wasn't much I could do about it. Now I no longer buy those highly-taxed products, and I flatly refuse to be corralled into using their closed-system, highly-taxed (eventually) BS.

It's time to call them out and show them for the criminals they are, and refuse to take it anymore. Rebuildables, nic in the freezer, and political action are our tools.

Andria
 

sofarsogood

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FDA encourages vapers to become either offenders since will have to buy products from black markets or craftsmen since will have to build their own stuff. Which category do you belong to? :D

CASAA analysis of what will really happen under ecig deeming
I followed the link to a 50 page pdf which is the written comment submitted to OMB in the current round. I read it, all of it, slowly and carefully. I strongly recommend everyone who hangs around this part of the forum to bite the bullet and do the same. If you pay those dues your ability to defend vaping will be improved. I like making my case with common sense. There is lots of that in the document including points that were new to me. I'm also encouraged that the attempt to ban the products the way FDA intends to try is very likely to create a mess but not much else. I'm biased of course but I think the document does an adequate job of demolishing the FDA approach. The document recommends that the only sensible choice for OMB is to delay implementig a rule until it's actual regulation and not an outright ban. So, go read it--please.
 

KrausAldo

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I followed the link to a 50 page pdf which is the written comment submitted to OMB in the current round. I read it, all of it, slowly and carefully. I strongly recommend everyone who hangs around this part of the forum to bite the bullet and do the same. If you pay those dues your ability to defend vaping will be improved. I like making my case with common sense. There is lots of that in the document including points that were new to me. I'm also encouraged that the attempt to ban the products the way FDA intends to try is very likely to create a mess but not much else. I'm biased of course but I think the document does an adequate job of demolishing the FDA approach. The document recommends that the only sensible choice for OMB is to delay implementig a rule until it's actual regulation and not an outright ban. So, go read it--please.

frankly speaking I didn't read that report of 57 pages, I just emphasized the possible effects the FDA ban or the grand father date - February 15, 2007 would have on vapers. Certainly a proper regulation is the best thing FDA could do for us. If you or smb else could make some clarities on this subject that would be very much appreciated by me and other members of this forum, I assume. Since one of the purposes of this forum is to present a platform where to voice our opinions, support them or not by making things clear to everybody!
 
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DC2

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I followed the link to a 50 page pdf which is the written comment submitted to OMB in the current round. I read it, all of it, slowly and carefully. I strongly recommend everyone who hangs around this part of the forum to bite the bullet and do the same.
I'm not done reading it yet, but so far there is nothing I wasn't aware of.
But a link to that would be the perfect answer for someone looking for a summary of what is going on.

And we get those requests all the time, so this is perfect!
:thumb:

This part really sums it up nicely...
CASAA: CASAA Report to OMB/OIRA dated December 15, 2015
Properly interpreting what is being proposed
It is possible to envision genuinely beneficial regulation of e-cigarettes by the federal government or other authorities. Indeed, FDA’s proposed deeming of e-cigarettes is widely interpreted among officials and members of the public who are vaguely familiar with the proposal as a mere assertion of authority that allows beneficial regulations to be created. The reality is that due to the details of the TCA, compounded by FDA’s procedures for regulating tobacco products, the deeming itself is actually a massive policy intervention that largely forecloses the possibility of genuinely beneficial regulation. It is effectively a blanket ban of the products that will replace the high-quality legal market that currently exists with unregulatable alternative markets (discussed below). It needs to be evaluated with this in mind.

Three basic facts define any legitimate discussion of the proposed FDA rule:
1.The proposed rule is a de facto ban on an entire product category, and not regulation in any normal sense of the word. FDA has failed to analyze the rule in the context of the real impacts, analyze the real impacts, or even to clearly state that this is what the rule would do.

2.The potential (gross) benefits of this rule are extremely low. There is nothing close to a compelling public need for this rule. FDA has failed to provide convincing justification -- either scientific evidence or policy analysis -- that there is a problem that the proposed rule could solve.

3.The immediate effects of the rule create enormous costs, and the secondary effects will probably be greater still. FDA has failed to conduct anything that could be considered a remotely legitimate cost-benefit analysis.

A ban, not real regulation
The most important thing to understand about this proposed rule is that it is not actually a regulation in any normal sense of the word. It does not contain manufacturing, product, or performance standards that producers can endeavor to meet. It does not contain technical details that might be the subject of debate or compromise. It does not impose rules designed to fix problems related to product quality, public health and safety, or other legitimate regulatory concerns. The real implications of this rule, quite contrary to what FDA has implied it will do, are driven by the following three characteristics. For all practical purposes these are the only factors that really matter for the proposed deeming; details of any subsequent rulemaking under the deeming (short of the massive and unlikely alteration of current FDA procedures addressed below) will have relatively trivial impact.

a) Almost all the impact of the regulation comes merely from the act of deeming.The deeming would subject e-cigarettes to the same bans and approvals processes that exist for cigarettes and smokeless tobacco. There are no details of the proposed rule itself that offer any room for consequential amendments or compromise on this point. Normal regulations involve room for compromise over quantities or other details, but there are no such details in this case.

b) The details of the TCA include a provision that any products not on the market as of February 15, 2007 must go through an approval process as a new product. Since there is currently no e-cigarette product sufficiently similar to any product that existed on that grandfather date, this means that the “regulation” is a ban of all existing e-cigarette products, with the theoretical option that they can secure approval as a “new” product under the premarket tobacco application (PMTA) process . This is fundamentally different from the imposition of a real regulatory standard that manufacturers could bring their products into compliance with. There is no such option for compliance. (It has been suggested that this date be changed for e-cigarettes, though FDA’s position is that it is immutable; in any case, merely changing the grandfather date would provide very limited reduction in the net harms caused by this rule, as noted below.)

c) The FDA approval processes for tobacco products is, by design and as demonstrated in practice, arbitrary and primarily intended to prevent new products from being approved. The approval processes -- for new products (PMTA), to be able to make health-related claims about products (the “modified risk tobacco product” (MRTP) process), and even to be able to make minor changes in existing products (the “substantial equivalence” (SE) process) -- are extremely expensive and onerous. Applications are usually rejected or denied by FDA, often for reasons that the applicant had no way of anticipating. Whatever one might think of imposing such a process to impede innovations in highly risky combustible tobacco products, the function of these processes must be seen for what they are: creeping prohibition-by-paperwork under the guise of regulation. FDA provides no standards for any of these processes, such that if a product meets them, the manufacturer can expect the application will be approved. Thus, every application is not just expensive, but highly uncertain, and decisions are ultimately arbitrary.

While there are not clear standards for what an application should contain, the FDA “guidance” documents for applications for products they currently regulate calls for information similar to that required for pharmaceutical product applications. This alone makes the process extremely expensive, to say nothing of being a very bad fit for a product that is freely chosen by consumers based on many characteristics, not merely because of medicinal efficacy. This misfit presumably contributes to there being no actual requirements for what a manufacturer must demonstrate in an application, as there are with pharmaceuticals. This makes the expensive process also utterly uncertain. It thus can only be considered feasible for a product that is expected to generate tens of millions of dollars in revenue per SKU. It is not conceivable that there will be serious new product applications for more than about 25 e-cigarette products (these are FDA’s own estimates, which seem plausible). Probably only the major tobacco companies could navigate this regulatory maze, and even some in that sector have told us that the burden appears to be insurmountable even for them. Therefore, the net effect of the proposed regulations will be to permanently ban on the order of 99.99% of the roughly 100,000 e-cigarette products on the market today.

These three observations mean that the proposed deeming contains no room for reasonable compromise. Regulations are normally assessed, debated, and compromised upon based on their details. But these three factors mean that a mere one-sentence version of the proposed rule (“E-cigarettes are tobacco products and subject to FDA tobacco product regulation.”) would contain basically all the payload.

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