Home testing of e-liquid strength (DIY)

[Switched]

Indeed. I have already said about unflavored in the first post.

If a vendor's liquids (unflavored) are reported as wrong and this was found my several people, only then could it reasonably be thought of as a possible issue.

On reflection, changed 'any vendor can be called out' to 'any issues can be detected much earlier'. Much better I think; the other wording was a bit sinister.

Regarding flavored liquids, lets gather some more data first to see how many might give a low result and if they can be easily listed.

Luckily those with added acids all give a null result, not a low result.

So far, afaik, there hasn't been a report of a flavored liquid giving a low result because of the flavoring. There almost certainly will be some, but we shouldn't write off the test's usefullness for that just yet.

I can add a bold warning to the first post (so it can't be missed) like this :

NOTE : A low-strength reading in flavored liquid can be a result of interference from the flavoring. It probably does not mean that the nicotine is actually low.
If you find a liquid like this let us know so we can keep tabs on those flavors for which the test will not work.

CAUTION : As always when working nicotine, take care to prevent spills and splashes; particularly of the nicotine liquid. Ideally gloves, long sleeves and eye-protection should be used.

+++

btw, the person I had in mind in the post on the other thread was Brad, not anyone on the forum. I thought that was clear. The point was to convince Brad that the danger was real.

And I have been clear that our intention is be constructive. Highlight issues but then help solve them (but the problem has to be admitted and taken seriously first of course).

IMMHO we need to get this train back on track... The test was designed to test unadjusted nic (PH). Since the origins of all these threads was focused on pure nic (read unfavoured) being sold to DIYers.

So... test your nic unflavoured and if you mix your own juice (me 100%) then you may test for variances once flavoured after a period of steeping, to see if the test results are different. This would not be necessary because you have already tested the base.

IMO testing vendors "flavoured" liquids using this test method is nothing more than a witch hunt and should be avoided at all cost. As Kurt and DVap have stated - this test is nothing more than a litmus test and not really an accurate way to measure commercially sold liquids, more precise testing procedures needs to occur for these.

Moving forward I believe we need to walk very softly not to discredit anything that was done (important work) in the last week by trying to validate test results using a kindergarten test (for the lack of a better word). This test is an indicator only and as long as it falls within the margin of area in test design of a know quantity we should be fine. Should it fall out of an anticipated result, the test should be repeated once or twice more to validate your results. If the avg remains unchanged, the suspicious liquid needs to be properly tested before any conclusions are drawn.

 

[Spazmelda]

IMO testing vendors "flavoured" liquids using this test method is nothing more than a witch hunt and should be avoided at all cost. As Kurt and DVap have stated - this test is nothing more than a litmus test and not really an accurate way to measure commercially sold liquids, more precise testing procedures needs to occur for these.

I think the weaknesses of this test wrt testing flavored liquids have been pretty well addressed so far, in the very first post even. I don't think that anyone who has posted in this thread as of yet has any intention of turning this into a witch hunt of any kind. We all seem to be well aware of the fact that juices can have components that affect the test results. If anyone comes here torches blazing because of a test on flavored liquid, I'm sure there will be many people who jump in to explain the issue in more detail.

I don't buy flavored juices anymore, so my main intention is to test my unflavored liquids. I will then test a few of my DIY flavored liquids to see whether the flavors that *I* have added affect the results of the indicator test (purely for my own curiosity).

 

[rkayw]

If I have learned anything since joining ECF (lol), and as stated previously in other threads (by various members)...

The importance of some points are well worth repeating. And will be repeated numerous times. That's a given.

I think the weaknesses of this test wrt testing flavored liquids have been pretty well addressed so far, in the very first post even. I don't think that anyone who has posted in this thread as of yet has any intention of turning this into a witch hunt of any kind. We all seem to be well aware of the fact that juices can have components that affect the test results. If anyone comes here torches blazing because of a test on flavored liquid, I'm sure there will be many people who jump in to explain the issue in more detail.

 

[Switched]

I think the weaknesses of this test wrt testing flavored liquids have been pretty well addressed so far, in the very first post even. I don't think that anyone who has posted in this thread as of yet has any intention of turning this into a witch hunt of any kind. We all seem to be well aware of the fact that juices can have components that affect the test results. If anyone comes here torches blazing because of a test on flavored liquid, I'm sure there will be many people who jump in to explain the issue in more detail.

I don't buy flavored juices anymore, so my main intention is to test my unflavored liquids. I will then test a few of my DIY flavored liquids to see whether the flavors that *I* have added affect the results of the indicator test (purely for my own curiosity).

Although you have touched on the obvious, you have failed to touch on reality IMO. How many of the vaping community have yet to read these threads or will only peruse them in the future? ? Then by a kit and unknowingly test commercially available liquid, taking into account that the forums onyl constitute about 10% of the vaping community.

Besides last time I checked this thread is to discuss the home test kit, by anyone who has an interest and opinion. I offered mine because folks were posting results of commercially tested liquid, which could lead to mis-comprehension to some of what the test is designed for in the first place.

In between the 2 threads and elsewhere folks seem to believe they can do both. Truthfully, they can't and that is the message that needs to get across quite clear, once again IMHO.

 

[Spazmelda]

Although you have touched on the obvious, you have failed to touch on reality IMO. How many of the vaping community have yet to read these threads or will only peruse them in the future? ? Then by a kit and unknowingly test commercially available liquid, taking into account that the forums onyl constitute about 10% of the vaping community.

Besides last time I checked this thread is to discuss the home test kit, by anyone who has an interest and opinion. I offered mine because folks were posting results of commercially tested liquid, which could lead to mis-comprehension to some of what the test is designed for in the first place.

In between the 2 threads and elsewhere folks seem to believe they can do both. Truthfully, they can't and that is the message that needs to get across quite clear, once again IMHO.

IMO, then... it's good to have a thread where we can discuss such things. With the situation with BE and the availability of the testing kit there are bound to be some people who try to test their flavored juices and become confused or alarmed by the results. It will be good, again IMO, that we have a thread where we can help them out and point out that their results are not valid. I don't think it does any harm for someone to post that they tested such and such liquid and found the test doesn't work for it, most likely due to flavor components that were added.

I'm not really disagreeing with your statement that this shouldn't become a witch hunt, because I agree with that. What I do disagree with is the sentiment that anyone testing a flavored liquid is already on a witch hunt. Does that make sense?

 

[Switched]

*SNIP

I'm not really disagreeing with your statement that this shouldn't become a witch hunt, because I agree with that. What I do disagree with is the sentiment that anyone testing a flavored liquid is already on a witch hunt. Does that make sense?

Agreed that perhaps was the wrong word to use here... tomatoes tomahtoes.

Perhaps rephrasing to...

I do not want the home test kit which was designed to test base nicotine vice commercially bought liquids, used to test commercially bought liquids by person(s) unknowingly using the kit outside its design characteristics and limitations and then unknowingly accusing a vendor of selling them faulty liquid, in private or on the forums. Words are spoken and once spoken, can never be retrieved.

The wise consumer usually contacts the vendor in private, however since I have been here many yahoos voice their displeasures in public rather than trying with the vendor in private first.

Although I have yet to titrate for nicotine, in my experience with titration - garbage in = garbage out. That is the point I am trying to convey.

 

[markfm]

Switched is of course absolutely right. As a DIY person I know my gozinta (nic base), my gozouta (my final eliquid), and what precise flavorings I am using. I can test incoming nic, and outgoing eliquid, which then lets me say that, for my specific flavorings, and %s that I use, the home test either matches expectation or doesn't. That's what I'm doing now -- I have tested my nic base, and am testing various output eliquids, to see if I get expected results or if they test "off" (whether low or high).

Similar to the experience of some eliquids tending to crack tanks, I would expect we'll see various results. Vendor A cinnamon, for instance, may have little or no effect, while vendor B cinnamon flavoring may tend to curve the results low.

Absolutely, going to a vendor is proper if you think something is low. Also, although pretty simple to perform, the test does take care in measurement and proper cleaning of the glassware.

 

[rkayw]

I personally will leave any testing of commercial flavored juices to those with a LOT more chemistry experience & knowledge than I.
Having to test unflavored nic alone is enough to fray on my last nerve.

 

[markfm]

Frankly, I expect most things will test fine. I would posit that the majority of suppliers do a creditable job.

If overall people are getting a lot of "off" nic base I expect they would notice -- if it's way too low you would see you are vaping a lot more, and if too high you would be running into jitters or headaches, else self-regulating and vaping a lot less. As I'm doing a slow step-down in nic use myself, I absolutely vape more when I drop a couple of mg/ml, for a day or two, before resetting at the lower level. It's a noticeable bump in consumption.

(I vape little of the one bottle of vg nic base that tested low, insufficient to have noticed it being low. My all-day every day uses the PG base that tests where I expect it to be.)

 

[kinabaloo]

Argument totally supported.

In the vid the liquid was an amber brown colour and not clear. IME this makes it extremely difficult to measure titration indicator colour. In the test we could definitely see the bromo blue colour when the distilled water was added to the sample (it was sitting on top the nic) not so evident thereafter, mind you we were viewing from the cam and not in person. Nonetheless, it was clearly stated that the test was for unaltered nic liquids. If anything (considering flavourings did not decrease PH) I would be tempted to increase the distilled water (dilute the colour) and use a slightly lower X factor for my calculations as described somewhere in these threads.

I thnk it justs an artefact of filming indoors in low light.

 

[retird]

Switched is of course absolutely right. As a DIY person I know my gozinta (nic base), my gozouta (my final eliquid), and what precise flavorings I am using. I can test incoming nic, and outgoing eliquid, which then lets me say that, for my specific flavorings, and %s that I use, the home test either matches expectation or doesn't. That's what I'm doing now -- I have tested my nic base, and am testing various output eliquids, to see if I get expected results or if they test "off" (whether low or high).

Similar to the experience of some eliquids tending to crack tanks, I would expect we'll see various results. Vendor A cinnamon, for instance, may have little or no effect, while vendor B cinnamon flavoring may tend to curve the results low.

Absolutely, going to a vendor is proper if you think something is low. Also, although pretty simple to perform, the test does take care in measurement and proper cleaning of the glassware.

I have "gone to my vendors" and asked for QC measures they have to validate "nic strength"......NONE have replied with any affirmative controls........just "passing the buck" or "maybe we might need to look at it"...

 

[kinabaloo]

Frankly, I expect most things will test fine. I would posit that the majority of suppliers do a creditable job.

If overall people are getting a lot of "off" nic base I expect they would notice -- if it's way too low you would see you are vaping a lot more, and if too high you would be running into jitters or headaches, else self-regulating and vaping a lot less. As I'm doing a slow step-down in nic use myself, I absolutely vape more when I drop a couple of mg/ml, for a day or two, before resetting at the lower level. It's a noticeable bump in consumption.

(I vape little of the one bottle of vg nic base that tested low, insufficient to have noticed it being low. My all-day every day uses the PG base that tests where I expect it to be.)

The BE case was exceptional for two reasons: it was sutained over a long period and seems to essentially be the result of carelessness, not a single error. The super-high sample found added much, rightly, to the alarm. But it was the denial at first which really brought out the wrath. For myself, it was only then that my attention switched to being vocal in demanding a recall, and that meant it was necessary to get Brad to see that it was a very real risk. Recall made and shut-down for rethink, nothing but constructive criticism would fllow from me (and many feel the same; though others would never buy there again, and who could blame them).

The great thing about the test being widely used is to catch another BE situation early. The point is never about name calling for its own sake, but there would be points at which it would be necessary to make public announcement of dangerously high liquid, or to take a vendor to task if they obfuscate. (Really) over-high strengths can clearly present a danger that is not there with strengths that are too low.

We need to be able to share results in order to identify mis-tests and, on the other hand, identify the likely scale of any issue. A quiet message to the vendor will hopefully be all that is required; this will almost always be the case (in this way the BE situation was a vivid example to other vendors of what not to do, and later what to do; and not put off the correct action).

 

[kinabaloo]

I have "gone to my vendors" and asked for QC measures they have to validate "nic strength"......NONE have replied with any affirmative controls........just "passing the buck" or "maybe we might need to look at it"...

For a small-scale vendor, it can be as simple as following our simple and inexpensive titration method to check the base nic solutions (every container) (after dilution if above 50/100mg), and then a sample of finished products (say, 2 or 3 / 100).

 

[kinabaloo]

IMO, then... it's good to have a thread where we can discuss such things. With the situation with BE and the availability of the testing kit there are bound to be some people who try to test their flavored juices and become confused or alarmed by the results. It will be good, again IMO, that we have a thread where we can help them out and point out that their results are not valid. I don't think it does any harm for someone to post that they tested such and such liquid and found the test doesn't work for it, most likely due to flavor components that were added.

I'm not really disagreeing with your statement that this shouldn't become a witch hunt, because I agree with that. What I do disagree with is the sentiment that anyone testing a flavored liquid is already on a witch hunt. Does that make sense?

Indeed, and maybe you said it better than I

I can understand the fears expressed though. It would bring direpute to the test/method if people did respond in some attacking mode when they should first suspect the test situation.

It is looking promising so far though that the test is realiable for most flavored liquids. The only know off case is that mentioned by DVap - TW French Pipe. Let's keep a list of those that cannot be tested (and vendors who acidify) and see if it's manageable. I'm optimistic.

+++

@Switched - The test does make this point both on the website and in the instructions.

And, while it is fair to raise the point and it is good we have debated it, I hope you will try the titration on some flavored liquids before dishing it

Nobody disagrees that the flavorings might lead to a false result but only sometimes/occasionally. I'm interested to find out the real data before jumping to conclusions.

Note what DVap said: "flavor after flavor tested on the money." There was one exception and that was a 'null' as I call it - straigt to yellow / can't be titrated because of acid content (i.e. very clearly 'untestable' as opposed to spurious).

 

[markfm]

For vendors, a positive of them trying the at-home test is to let them establish whether a particular blend will tend to test "off", based on the flavorings they use.

If they verify their incoming nic, and test an output eliquid and it tends to read low, it is good for them to know this, to be able to say "Please note, at home titration of our XX mg/ml SuperDuperFlavorEliquid will tend to indicate YY mg/ml, due to the flavorings used."

Know up front, publish any known oddities up front, if at all possible, then an end user won't be surprised.

 

[rkayw]

I have "gone to my vendors" and asked for QC measures they have to validate "nic strength"......NONE have replied with any affirmative controls........just "passing the buck" or "maybe we might need to look at it"...

Good luck to you, retird. I hope your vendors step up to the plate and provide you with adequate answers. If not, they will surely be left behind in light of recent events. JMO.

 

[kinabaloo]

One last thing about the BE situation. If I remember correctly, their batch numbers seemed to apply over a long time period which makes it seem that the number was not tied to a specific container of base nic. Then to make matters worse the same number was used for all different strengths of outgoing liquid. What I would do is have a two part batch number (tracking id) where the second number related to a specifc set of bottles of same strength made at a specific time. Then a recall, if it should be necessary (with good processes in place it should practically never be necessary), a much more manageable number of items is involved.

 

[Kurt]

I would like to repeat my request to have this thread, and other QC threads, in a separate subforum. This is the DIY forum, so people here will have unflavored nic, which the test is designed for. If people want to then post the results of particular flavored liquids they make in another thread, in a very controlled experiment, I think that is great, but I personally would like to see this thread be for unflavored nic only, while we optimize the kit or the use of it. The results of flavors are good, but I think that is OT for the time being, and distracts from the fundamental skills we want people to have.

I look at the kit as giving the public enhanced running shoes in a race, and turning around to the vendors and saying "Come on! You can do it! Run faster!" The idea is to make everyone win.

 

[retird]

I did not say "small scale vendor"....point is that "no apparent QC".....

For a small-scale vendor, it can be as simple as following our simple and inexpensive titration method to check the base nic solutions (every container) (after dilution if above 50/100mg), and then a sample of finished products (say, 2 or 3 / 100).

Edit: Kurt...agree back on track....

 

[kinabaloo]

I did not say "small scale vendor"....point is that "no apparent QC".....
Edit: Kurt...agree back on track....

I wasn't referring to you Ritird.

I just mean that the minimum testing can be achieved easily for a small scale artisan vendor who takes in base nic at say 50/100mg. Hopefully they'd use a more accurate method but this is definetaly better than nothing.